by Grace and through faith

[Soyeong]

You are preaching heresy, you are demanding works of grace before the grace is given.

Our salvation is a free gift not dependent upon works before or after regeneration. Sheep are sheep whether they are woolly or not.

Do you affirm or deny the truth of Titus 2:11-13?

It does not say that we are required to have first done those works in order to become saved or that will do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather it describes the content of God's gift of salvation as being trained by grace to do those works. This is in accordance with what other verses say about salvation, so see why you consider this to be heresy or how you can declare it to be heresy without denying the truth of parts of the Bible. I did not demand works of grace before grace is give, but spoke about what is happening in the present.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

These verses state that they are speaking about salvation and do not state anything to distinguish between justification and sanctification, but rather that is you reading your theology into them. Likewise, Titus 2:11-13 describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do those works.

Abraham was justified in Genesis 12 when he obeyed God's command to go to the land where he would receive his inheritance (Hebrews 11:8), he was justified in Genesis 15:6 when he believed God (Romans 4:1-5, James 2:21-24), and he was justified in Genesis 22 when he offered Issac (Hebrews 11:17, James 2:21-24). We have been sanctified (Hebrews 10:10, we are being sanctified (Hebrews 10:14), and we will be sanctified when he who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6). Being saved from counting to live in sin is part of our salvation from sin, not a processes that happens after we have been saved.

Amen Exactly the bible already explains what these things all mean that’s the purpose of the revelations given to Peter John Paul ect

A summary statement in a sentance like

“you are saved by grace through faith “

We aren’t meant to just take this statement independent of what’s being said about the summary statement Paul’s actually plainly explaining alot of things in his letters deep important things

If we were to read the epistles like they we’re letters sent to the church from the apostles who were filled with the spirit of Christ and annointed to witness these things to all people of the earth

instead of book that were take each sentence and try to somehow interpret what it means …..it’s actually a coherent message that saves people souls rather than a collection of riddles in the form of single or verse or two then our own interpretations of what it means the interpretations are all around the verses we remove from the context we’re just meant to be believers of the things we learn

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Do you affirm or deny the truth of Titus 2:11-13?

It does not say that we are required to have first done those works in order to become saved or that will do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather it describes the content of God's gift of salvation as being trained by grace to do those works. This is in accordance with what other verses say about salvation, so see why you consider this to be heresy or how you can declare it to be heresy without denying the truth of parts of the Bible. I did not demand works of grace before grace is give, but spoke about what is happening in the present.

Amen

when paul is saying this

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Hes talking about the gospel that teaches us all those things and the rest of what he’s saying

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1, 3-5, 10, 12-14, 16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In Jesus teachings in the gospel you learn Gods true grace that offers salvation to all men

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


we learn from the lords own mouth in the gospel that we have to stop sinning and start bearing good fruit. We learn that Jesus will return one day from heaven


In other words we learn this doctrine in the gospel Paul’s referring to here


“the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”

jesus taught sinners have to repent or they will perish also that they need to repent and believe his word the things he taught not repent and return to loses word but repent and believe the gospel and start acting in love towards people rather than stealing and lying and cheering people helping people rether than hurting blessing rether than cursing ect
“looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus is who taught this doctrine in the gospel that he would return and appear to gather his elect and usher in salvstion and eternal life that Paul’s referring to

And this

“who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he taught them even beforehand he was laying his life down for thier sins so they could repent and be forgiven and restored and if they just listened to him and followed they would live and they would be right in Gods eyes. And then the apostles explained it all further and clearer no longer on parable but in plain words

my point is when Paul says the grace of god that offers salvation that teaches us all these things ……then says this after that

“These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

hes referring to the gospel that he believed the same one we all believe that’s written in the Bible’s gospel according to Matthew , mark Luke and John the books where Jesus is promising that anyone who believes on him shall be saved

Paul is a very talented and creative writer but he was always preaching the gospel

 

[turbosixx]

The thing is it’s often not what we thought before we read it plainly and clearly then the challenge becomes “ ca. I believe what the word says even though I thought something else about God ? Or grace ? Or salvstion ? Essentially can I accept a gods word over my own thinking and logic ?

That is the challenge

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That is the challenge

And it is a challenge . It’s something that happens over time God keeps us along the way never overloading us but what we’re able to hear works in us to this end


“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:12

just abiding in Christ and his word we learn and with learning we change over time like children as they grow they learn and become mature later they are always your kid …..they just need to listen so you can teach them

you already have shown your love to them they are your children When they are born but children begin being held and having no responsability because they aren’t capable of indersrsnding things like and adult or performing them but they are children just younger ones thier hearing isn’t yet developed because they haven’t heard the right one

“if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; ( gods truth in the gospel does this ) and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

hes able to change bekievers but they have to hear to believe

 

[Evmur]

Do you affirm or deny the truth of Titus 2:11-13?

It does not say that we are required to have first done those works in order to become saved or that will do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather it describes the content of God's gift of salvation as being trained by grace to do those works. This is in accordance with what other verses say about salvation, so see why you consider this to be heresy or how you can declare it to be heresy without denying the truth of parts of the Bible. I did not demand works of grace before grace is give, but spoke about what is happening in the present.

There be salvation and there be fruits of being saved. The salvation is sure, the fruits not so much.

You don't like it? so what? that's the way God has ordered it.

Therefore we use the tools available to us, we exhort, reprove, [crucially] teach, encourage, fellowship, help, earnestly desire, seek unity of mind and heart. Rebuke, we pray we preach.

I wanna tell ya something, sometimes God witholds His grace and nothing gets done.

 

[John146]

There be salvation and there be fruits of being saved. The salvation is sure, the fruits not so much.

You don't like it? so what? that's the way God has ordered it.

Therefore we use the tools available to us, we exhort, reprove, [crucially] teach, encourage, fellowship, help, earnestly desire, seek unity of mind and heart. Rebuke, we pray we preach.

I wanna tell ya something, sometimes God witholds His grace and nothing gets done.

Agreed, fruits come from being properly discipled in the word of God, equipped to do good works. Unfortunately, many do not get properly discipled and have very few if any good works. Their labor will burn up at the JSOC, but they will be saved. They will receive no rewards.

 

[Evmur]

“These are written to mature christians, Paul did not preach these things in the Acts of the Apostles.”

….they are written to believers that need to hear what he’s saying he’s speaking not to “ mature Christian’s only “ and the book of acts has I think three sermons or so by Paul bit tells us he preached day and night for three years just at Ephesus before he parted for rome three full years paul was preaching the gospel of the kingdom the same gospel Jesus preached

You are just avoiding it brother it doesn’t matter if a scripture is in acts or luke or Galatians it’s meant for. Whoever’s to hear Paul wasn’t writing to then because they already knew these things and didn’t need to learn

the truth is it’s just part of the doctrine money is many peoples false god they love it more than god serve it are greedy with it ealk right past the needy and don’t even think to help them that’s all not of God . It’s why from the start of this I showed you a very clear nd really unavoidable statement by Paul supported by several statements of Jesus

this one here it seems like you just aren’t willing to let this be true but that’s just my opinion I believe this now true that’s my simple position

“For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; that thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭6:7-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I believe we should learn to agree with what is there if we disagree the Bible is still going to say what it so we have to be humble and change what we thought

it sort of just says what it says again having some money isn’t evil but it can very easily corrupt a person and lead them where they don’t want to go me people simply can’t handle money others can it isn’t important to them they’ll share and give and love with money too ….that’s the goal

money isnt eternal it’s paper that men placed value upon a monitary system for trade but it holds everyone’s hopes and dreams in this world people will kill to get it sell drugs and destroy lives just to get that paper they’ll horde it because they know “ money is the key to this world “ I can buy anything I want I’ll have security I’ll have the money to get out of situations ect

Money is an object man’s desire and greed for money is evil mans servitude to money is an nomination to God

whether younhave alotnof money or live under a bridge with nothing neither is a fan of being cursed that’s all
Old Testament stuff has nothing to do with the new testement money is just a thing we don’t want to make it more than a way to have needs met not only ours but those we can meet

again that’s the goal

It seems simple to me read what Jesus and the apostles taught and believe that even if we have to change our former opinion that’s what truth does isn’t it ? Corrects and teaches and offers the truth

I don't know why you are preaching at me concerning money, go and preach that stuff in Calcutta or the Sudan. You American, you got money, all you have got to worry about is GIVING. "Give and it shall be given you again, good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over will men give into your bosom" .... if you preaching "give give give and expect nothing back" you are preaching false doctrine.

God is fed up with being treated like a tight wad.

And you need to be careful you are not intruding upon the Holy Spirit's territory. Whatever works people do or don't do is His business, according to His appointings, His callings, His unctioning and His enabling.

As a Pentecostalist I know if the Holy Ghost is in a thing people will get saved, they will find healing and deliverance from all evil, a shout will go up, others will hear about it and come running to find out what the big deal is.

If the Holy Ghost isn't in it, people spend their time bellyaching ... me I like to get in the mix.

 

[Evmur]

Agreed, fruits come from being properly discipled in the word of God, equipped to do good works. Unfortunately, many do not get properly discipled and have very few if any good works. Their labor will burn up at the JSOC, but they will be saved. They will receive no rewards.

... yet God is gracious, truly He loves to bless His people.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I don't know why you are preaching at me concerning money, go and preach that stuff in Calcutta or the Sudan. You American, you got money, all you have got to worry about is GIVING. "Give and it shall be given you again, good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over will men give into your bosom" .... if you preaching "give give give and expect nothing back" you are preaching false doctrine.

God is fed up with being treated like a tight wad.

And you need to be careful you are not intruding upon the Holy Spirit's territory. Whatever works people do or don't do is His business, according to His appointings, His callings, His unctioning and His enabling.

As a Pentecostalist I know if the Holy Ghost is in a thing people will get saved, they will find healing and deliverance from all evil, a shout will go up, others will hear about it and come running to find out what the big deal is.

If the Holy Ghost isn't in it, people spend their time bellyaching ... me I like to get in the mix.

Lol I hadn’t even spoken to you I was discussing what the Bible says about the love of money and prosperity gospel and you began explaining how it was all wrong and money meant your blessed poverty was a cirse ext

aid you don’t want to discuss something don’t chime in to a conversation and then later complain someone’s saying what they had to say

air seems like you don’t really want to talk about what the scripture says about money and wealth and the desire to be rich and how to it can destroy people and lead them away from faith but that’s what it says either way

“But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭6:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I agree with it you seem not to but I’m alright with it lol but again no one’s preaching at you you came and injected yourself into a conversation I was having with someone else and I responded showing you why I was saying what I said now ……you seem upset

abut this has never been about someone preaching at you ….it’s a discussion forum for what the Bible says about things sometimes it doesn’t matter what the Bible says but it actually should in a Bible discussion forum the reason I was talking about it is because that’s what it says very plainly …..

they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

not really a mysterious statement but one that should be heard and accepted in my opinion

 

[Soyeong]

There be salvation and there be fruits of being saved. The salvation is sure, the fruits not so much.

You don't like it? so what? that's the way God has ordered it.

Therefore we use the tools available to us, we exhort, reprove, [crucially] teach, encourage, fellowship, help, earnestly desire, seek unity of mind and heart. Rebuke, we pray we preach.

I wanna tell ya something, sometimes God witholds His grace and nothing gets done.

In Titus 2:11-13, it doesn't say that we become saved first and then we will do those works as the result or fruit of our salvation, but rather it describes the content of God's gift of salvation as being trained by grace. You can insist that God ordered it otherwise, but not while upholding the truth of Titus 2:11-13.

 

[Evmur]

Lol I hadn’t even spoken to you I was discussing what the Bible says about the love of money and prosperity gospel and you began explaining how it was all wrong and money meant your blessed poverty was a cirse ext

aid you don’t want to discuss something don’t chime in to a conversation and then later complain someone’s saying what they had to say

air seems like you don’t really want to talk about what the scripture says about money and wealth and the desire to be rich and how to it can destroy people and lead them away from faith but that’s what it says either way

“But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭6:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I agree with it you seem not to but I’m alright with it lol but again no one’s preaching at you you came and injected yourself into a conversation I was having with someone else and I responded showing you why I was saying what I said now ……you seem upset

abut this has never been about someone preaching at you ….it’s a discussion forum for what the Bible says about things sometimes it doesn’t matter what the Bible says but it actually should in a Bible discussion forum the reason I was talking about it is because that’s what it says very plainly …..

they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

not really a mysterious statement but one that should be heard and accepted in my opinion

you are the only one with a problem you can't stop talking about it. You are not focussed on getting folks saved, you want to clobber them with works and duties.

 

[Nehemiah6]

In Titus 2:11-13, it doesn't say that we become saved first and then we will do those works as the result or fruit of our salvation

Yes it does. Go to Titus 3:4 -7. "NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS" is right there. So why do you continue on with your nonsensical false gospel? Each time you do it you are in fact contradicting God and Christ. But if you really believe your nonsense, give us a list of all the good works you have done to save you.

 

[Nehemiah6]

For the love of money is the root of all evil...

Did you note that it is not money but THE LOVE of money (covetousness). Can Christians be wealthy and yet refuse to love money? Absolutely. There are several examples in Scripture about wealthy believers using their wealth for the Gospel and for helping others, supporting missionaries, etc. We also have wealthy Abraham and Job in the OT. That was because God blessed them with wealth. So wealth per se is not evil.

 

[Soyeong]

Yes it does. Go to Titus 3:4 -7. "NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS" is right there. So why do you continue on with your nonsensical false gospel? Each time you do it you are in fact contradicting God and Christ. But if you really believe your nonsense, give us a list of all the good works you have done to save you.

You should not mistake me contradicting you with me contradicting God and Jesus. I did not say anything that contradicted Titus 3:4-7. According to Titus 2:11-13, it is neither the case that we are required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result nor are we required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather it describe the content of God’s gift of salvation as being trained by grace to do those works.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God’s law (1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to it then faith in Jesus is intrinsically the content of his gift of saving us from not living in obedience to it. For example, honoring our parents is intrinsically the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from not honoring our parents. The problem is that you are incorrectly viewing works as something extrinsic to salvation that we are required to do before or after it rather than viewing them as being intrinsically part of our the content of what God’s gift of salvation is.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God’s law (1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to it then faith in Jesus is intrinsically the content of his gift of saving us from not living in obedience to it.

You are clueless about the Gospel, and this proves it. So tell us what the New Testament says about JUSTIFICATION vs SANCTIFICATION.

 

[Kroogz]

Did you note that it is not money but THE LOVE of money (covetousness). Can Christians be wealthy and yet refuse to love money? Absolutely. There are several examples in Scripture about wealthy believers using their wealth for the Gospel and for helping others, supporting missionaries, etc. We also have wealthy Abraham and Job in the OT. That was because God blessed them with wealth. So wealth per se is not evil.

Can Christians be poor and still fall into the trap of the love of money? Yep. Arguably, there are more poor people trapped in it than wealthy people. And many poor people trapped in the sin of judging wealthy individuals.

 

[Evmur]

Lol I hadn’t even spoken to you I was discussing what the Bible says about the love of money and prosperity gospel and you began explaining how it was all wrong and money meant your blessed poverty was a cirse ext

aid you don’t want to discuss something don’t chime in to a conversation and then later complain someone’s saying what they had to say

air seems like you don’t really want to talk about what the scripture says about money and wealth and the desire to be rich and how to it can destroy people and lead them away from faith but that’s what it says either way

“But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭6:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I agree with it you seem not to but I’m alright with it lol but again no one’s preaching at you you came and injected yourself into a conversation I was having with someone else and I responded showing you why I was saying what I said now ……you seem upset

abut this has never been about someone preaching at you ….it’s a discussion forum for what the Bible says about things sometimes it doesn’t matter what the Bible says but it actually should in a Bible discussion forum the reason I was talking about it is because that’s what it says very plainly …..

they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

not really a mysterious statement but one that should be heard and accepted in my opinion

Ya know Paul wrote these things to Timothy and actually any blessing can potentially be a stumbling block. When we are in the mountain we are in greater danger of falling.

But when Paul was pumping the Corinthians for money he didn't speak about being panged with many sorrows, he said nothing then about the love of money being the root of all evil.

He said money was a blessing, bounty, prosperity from God.

He urged, as Jesus had [Paul and Jesus are always the same] that God loveth the cheerful giver, that he who sows sparingly would also reap sparingly and he who sowed abundantly would also reap abundantly.

"And God is able to to provide you with every blessing in abundance so that you will always have enough of everything and may provide in abundance for every good work as it is written "He scatters abroad He gives to the poor. His righteousness endures forever."

He who supplies seed to the sower and bread to the eater will supply and multiply your resources and increase your harvest of righteousness. You will be enriched in every way for your generosity which through us will produce thanksgiving unto God.

You fail to understand my friend

There are two kinds of prosperity, there is worldly prosperity which is mammon and which we are sternly warned against. But then there is godly prosperity which we are bid to receive with thanksgiving.

God is generous and He wants us to be also.

 

[Soyeong]

You are clueless about the Gospel, and this proves it. So tell us what the New Testament says about JUSTIFICATION vs SANCTIFICATION.

Calling me clueless about the Gospel does not demonstrate that I am wrong. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel.

In Hebrews 11, it lists examples of justifying faith and Abraham was listed twice, so he was justified in Genesis 12:1-5 when he obeyed the command to go to the land where he would receive his inheritance (Hebrews 11:8), he was justified in Genesis 15:6 when he believed God (Romans 4:1-5, James 2:21-24), and he was justified in Genesis 22 when he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17, James 2:21-24). We have been sanctified (Hebrews 10:10), we are being sanctified (Hebrews 10:14), and we will be sanctified when he who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6).

 

[notmyown]

Calling me clueless about the Gospel does not demonstrate that I am wrong. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel.

In Hebrews 11, it lists examples of justifying faith and Abraham was listed twice, so he was justified in Genesis 12:1-5 when he obeyed the command to go to the land where he would receive his inheritance (Hebrews 11:8), he was justified in Genesis 15:6 when he believed God (Romans 4:1-5, James 2:21-24), and he was justified in Genesis 22 when he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17, James 2:21-24). We have been sanctified (Hebrews 10:10), we are being sanctified (Hebrews 10:14), and we will be sanctified when he who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6).

can the Law produce righteousness?