by Grace and through faith

[Everlasting-Grace]

Grace is a gift and gifts can't be earned, so grace is incompatible with works done for the purpose of earning a wage (Romans 11:6), however, works can be done for any number of purposes that are compatible with gifts, which is also why there are many verses that connect grace and works. For example, in Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, which again is salvation by grace through faith.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we are no required to have first obeyed God's law in order to earn it as a wage, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically the content of the gift of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. For example, honoring our parents is intrinsically part of the gift of Jesus saving us from not honoring our parents. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, doing good works is nevertheless intrinsically the content of the gift of being saved from not doing good works. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have done those works first in order to become saved as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works.

The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing works, such as giving someone the opportunity to drive a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work has nothing to do with trying to earn the gift of the opportunity to drive it as a wage. Likewise, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus and God's law is the gift His instructions for how to have that experience, not for how to earn it as a wage.

This issue here is salvation.

It says we have been saved. It is a completed act.

In this sense, As paul said here and in Romans 4 and titus 3 and other areas. This gift of salvation this gift of rescue, this gift of being made safe, or as scripture said, put in a place of rest, because we have ceased from trying to work to earn Gods favor and be restored with him, a work that was impossible to do..

This is the point at which we are adopted. and made a child of God. this is where our christian walk begins

All the works come after this moment, They are a result of salvation. If we are still trying to work to receive the grace of salvation. we have missed the point of the gospel to begin with. And we will fail to be saved. because we have yet to fully repent and trust God

In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying what He has instructed in all of our ways and He will make our way straight. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting in His instructions and it is contradictory to think that we should trust in God for salvation, but not in what He has instructed.

If you trust in God for salvation. You have come to the point you have confessed and acknowledge that your trust in self and lack of trust in God in your life decisions are why you were dead to begin with. No one is going to trust in God for salvation. and think that is enough, they can go on living like they did.

Anyone who thinks this just proves they have not really repented. And do not really trust God to begin with.

They may have belief, but that belief has not moved to actual saving faith

Likewise, in Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is the way to trust the Gospel.

In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in His way by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to him all that He has promised. In Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply Abraham's children as the stars in the heaven, to His children He will give all of these lands, and through His children all of the nations of the earth will be blessed because Abraham heard God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Deuteronomy 30:16, if the children of Abraham will love God with all of their heart by walking in His way in obedience to His commandments, statutes, and laws, then they will live and multiply and God will bless them in the land that they go to possess. So the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household to do that, and because they did that. So obedience to God's law is the way to trust Him, to trust the Gospel, and to trust in the promise that He is making.

Once again,

You can not read eph 2: 8-9 about how we have been saved. and add works.

That is a false gospel. and rejects the grace of God.

 

[Kroogz]

Grace is a gift and gifts can't be earned, so grace is incompatible with works done for the purpose of earning a wage (Romans 11:6), however, works can be done for any number of purposes that are compatible with gifts, which is also why there are many verses that connect grace and works. For example, in Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, which again is salvation by grace through faith.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we are no required to have first obeyed God's law in order to earn it as a wage, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically the content of the gift of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. For example, honoring our parents is intrinsically part of the gift of Jesus saving us from not honoring our parents. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, doing good works is nevertheless intrinsically the content of the gift of being saved from not doing good works. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have done those works first in order to become saved as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works.

The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing works, such as giving someone the opportunity to drive a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work has nothing to do with trying to earn the gift of the opportunity to drive it as a wage. Likewise, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus and God's law is the gift His instructions for how to have that experience, not for how to earn it as a wage.



In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying what He has instructed in all of our ways and He will make our way straight. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting in His instructions and it is contradictory to think that we should trust in God for salvation, but not in what He has instructed.

Likewise, in Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is the way to trust the Gospel.

In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in His way by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to him all that He has promised. In Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply Abraham's children as the stars in the heaven, to His children He will give all of these lands, and through His children all of the nations of the earth will be blessed because Abraham heard God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Deuteronomy 30:16, if the children of Abraham will love God with all of their heart by walking in His way in obedience to His commandments, statutes, and laws, then they will live and multiply and God will bless them in the land that they go to possess. So the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household to do that, and because they did that. So obedience to God's law is the way to trust Him, to trust the Gospel, and to trust in the promise that He is making.

Salvation is unmerited. It's a gift. Rest in that hope(guarantee.)

Those who are working to add to that gift or to maintain that gift LOSE out on all God has elected us to and predestined for us.

The motivation has to be the right motivation for the rewards He has predestined for us. The moment we are saved those things we are elected to and predestined for are available to us. But we lose them if the motivation is not right.

If the motivation is to maintain or keep His gift.........We LOSE. And it's not just losing a piece of candy. It's eternal reward. the consequences are no small matter.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so it is not the case that we need to get saved first and then we will do those works, but that God graciously teaching us to do those works is the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works.

This ignores titus 3: 5 that says we were saved By Gods mercy not by good deeds we have done

Salvation is not being trained by Grace. It is being saved by Grace..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Salvation is unmerited. It's a gift. Rest in that hope(guarantee.)

Those who are working to add to that gift or to maintain that gift LOSE out on all God has elected us to and predestined for us.

The motivation has to be the right motivation for the rewards He has predestined for us. The moment we are saved those things we are elected to and predestined for are available to us. But we lose them if the motivation is not right.

If the motivation is to maintain or keep His gift.........We LOSE. And it's not just losing a piece of candy. It's eternal reward. the consequences are no small matter.

Paul actually calls those who try to maintain salvation by the flesh fools in Gal 3

 

[Nehemiah6]

In Ephesians 2:8-10, it denies that our salvation is the earned as the result of our works, but that is not at all the same as saying that God excludes works from salvation, especially because verse 10 says that we are new creations in Christ to do good works.

You are still confused. Verses 8 and 9 are about JUSTIFICATION. Verse 10 is about SANCTIFICATION. So kindly go to Romans chapter 4 to see what justification is all about. When a person is justified he or she is saved by grace through faith. Then comes the process of sanctification, which does not save, but proves that you are saved.

 

[Nehemiah6]

...my post accents gratitude for salvation and demonstrating that gratitude, and you probably know this already...

There is no question that we should thank the Lord sincerely for our salvation, and then express our gratitude for it and for the Lord Jesus Christ. This also means obedience to His Word.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You will not find "and do good" in Ephesians 2:8,9. So why are you still not clear about justification by grace through faith? In fact God EXCLUDES good works (doing good) from salvation BY GRACE through FAITH.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For by grace... Whose grace? God's grace
Through faith... Whose faith? The sinners
Not of works... Whose works? The sinners

Why does God exclude human works from justification? Because that would mean that the sinner somehow MERITED or EARNED his salvation. Which means that he could also boast about it.

All false religions teach that men can earn or merit their salvation by good works. They have no use for the shed blood of Christ, nor the fact that no matter how many good works you do, they cannot pay the penalty for your sins. WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO REMISSION (OF SINS). Therefore the Lamb of God had to not only offer His body, soul, and spirit an offering for sin, He had to shed His own precious blood. Which is called "the blood of God". It is only when the soul is washed by the blood of the Lamb that there is forgiveness of sins and salvation by grace through faith.

Pilgrim, you make these lengthy posts, and then confuse everyone with exactly what you are trying to say. Good works are excluded by God.

faith isn’t saying something ….it’s hearing what God said and believing what he said then acting on it yes we’re justified by faith and yes faith without works is dead.

One day brother this is going to be true we can live our lives pretending it isn’t ….but it takes us rejecting it flat out watch the issue you have is if the Bible says something plain you reject it and come to an opposite conclusion only because you can’t accept it like this

this is the apostle Paul who talked about justification by faith Paul’s words not mine they say what they say but you cannot accept it so I must be a crazy heretic I guess but oddly I agree with this

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

mall you do Nehemiah is read scriptures prior post then launch into bizarre arguments with those scriptures

works are irrelevant ?

God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:


to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:



but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath

good works are excluded from this ? It seems like Paul’s not really making a mystery there saying the opposite why is Paul wrong about that Nehemiah ? Why is Paul not correct but I agree with him and it’s just not right ?

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Not you though probably or maybe just maybe it’s just that you keep rejecting it and that’s why you disagree ?

“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

i can say I have faith I have faith in saved I have faith …..or I can walk in faith hearing what God actually said believing that and following it

If I don’t hear what he said or reject it …..I am pretending I have faith because I don’t like what I heard

Its pointless these days to even try talking to you you openly reject plain scripture and it seems to agitate you if anyone even talks about what it actually says like this you cannot accept it because you’ve already concluded sonthriw just gets rejected by you

the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-10‬ ‭KJV

you can read this statement by Paul totally ignore and reject it and then explain the opposite how no one’s works matter that’s not gonna happen works have no good lace in faith ect ect ect

I’m gonna be quoting actual scriptire in an attempt to talk about what the Bible actually does say about the subjects hat arise here like I have if it upsets you don’t read . It’s ts never going to be based on what Nehemiah thinks that’s not why I’m here man i have no interest in amazing revelations that disagree with the Bible i know well from study and life

the fits you throw here are becoming comical to me at this point just letting you know

 

[Pilgrimshope]

There is no question that we should thank the Lord sincerely for our salvation, and then express our gratitude for it and for the Lord Jesus Christ. This also means obedience to His Word.

Yeah because that’s going to be our judgement eternal Life

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Need to share the truth not explain why it’s not true that’s the difference in if we do good or bad works

same that’s why people talk about repentance and doing good like the entire Bible does

 

[Kroogz]

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭

1 Cor 3~~12Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13each one’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test [e]the quality of each one’s work. 14If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.

 

[Soyeong]

heresy

Why do you consider Titus 2:11-13 to be hearsay?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

If we were perfect after our true encounter with Jesus Yeshua, we would all be transfigured at that very instant and taken to be with our Lord.

Any who do not show their personal appreciation of all that has been done for us and does nothing in thanksgiving has not come to know Salvation, for we do show our utmost gratitude in realizing all that has been done for our salvation.

If we take the faith, a gift from God, and bury it in th e soil, it will be made filthy and worthless.. If you want tocall this judaizing or earning our salvation, continue in the darkness, but do not attmpt to bring the true praisers of Yahweh into it with.

“Any who do not show their personal appreciation of all that has been done for us and does nothing in thanksgiving has not come to know Salvation, for we do show our utmost gratitude in realizing all that has been done for our salvation. “

We have a role too I’m thankful to no end for Jesus dying for my sins I was lost without him he also had a lot to say to believers about thoer part in salvstion

should we think we’re already saved and we have nothing to do ? Or should we hear this type of thing ?

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭

God has done everythin TV we need done to be saved part of that is to hear his word about salvstion and not reject it in his word he teaches us to repent and live upright lives like this this is Paul referencing the gospel and how it saves

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a what we cannot do is search through scriptire and reject all of the things teaching us to repent and start acting our part stert living as a born again person a new person that isn’t bound to sin and death if we don’t repent we are going to perish the warnings in th e bibles New Testament are there because they are part of the design the part that teaches us this

teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”

No matter the part of the Bible we’re reading it’s always there part of faith is to believe the things we don’t want to hear or didn’t know before we heard the word

there’s a reason paul wrote the things he wrote it’s part of the doctrine in the gospel

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭

as christians all we have to do is let the word shape our belief for instance this principle we need to grasp it and not ignore it if we do not will become wrotten in us and part of our lives

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:5‬ ‭

awe should all believe this because then if we are sinning in our life we will begin to come to repentance indersrsnding its death and we need to let it go but my point isn’t that Jesus said it once its part of the doctrine

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we refuse to accept the truth like that it’s going to warp our faith we need to let it in instead of swerving around it the Bible presents it as a binary choice for us with consequences either way

God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;


I believe we need to present what’s there it’s like that throughout the Bible it never says “ if you get around to repenting and obeying thats good bit your saved either way “ instead it’s always presented the same as that there “ if you don’t repent you will perish but if you repent and do good you will live forever “

Amy only point is when we say “ I’m saved by grace through faith “ that doesn’t change what the rest of the New Testament says it fits in with the rest of it “ we’re saved by grace through faith “ that’s a true statement but then to interpret that as if the rest of what’s said in the same letters is heresy it’sll true And relevant and all works together

this part is true and beautiful

“in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but that doesn’t then mean this isn’t true and relevant

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We don’t just magically change from sinners to righteous perfect folks we spend a lifetime as Jesus disciples on earth learning from and following after him and his ways

Not the law of Moses but after Jesus the messiah and his ways he tells people about sin and death and hell because he’s warning us he doesn’t want us to end up there so he’s telling us up front the end of we don’t repent

Saying we’re saved by grace through faith is true …..the Bible also explains what that means and how our actions tie to it jesus died so we could escape the bonds of Satan called sin and death

We’re saved by Gods grace that teaches us what Paul says there repentance and doing good works being zealous for good works even and we’re saved through faith which only comes through hearing th e word and what he said about salvstion in the gospel

saved through faith where that begins is to first know this

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭

We have to hear the gospel in order to have faith in anything it says

“But without faith it is impossible to please him:

for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,

and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We have to acknolwedge this part

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

….Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22, 24, 28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s a true statement we want eternal life

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We want to accept the truth w our our deeds so we will repent of normal owe we need to before we have to answer for them later

 

[studentoftheword]

Does faith produce works?


Saving faith produces works. So, while works do not save, those who are saved will, naturally, demonstrate good works. James 2:14–26 makes the case that how one acts—their ''works''—are a sign of the kind of ''faith'' they possess.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Don't make it onerous, don't make it hard, don't be piling duties and donkey work upon folks ... get them savedsaved. Then they will be as tender lambs in the flock and we can bring them on slowly as they are able.

It's God's job to appoint duties and tasks and He furnishes the gifts and enablement.

But we have to be hyper strict about this one simple truth. By grace were ye saved through faith and [faith] not your own.

So we should not learn what the Bible says and believe and share that because why ? How am I adding anything lol I’m quoting Paul and what he said about grace is this adding anything to saved by grace ?


“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

show do you guys come to a Bible discussion forum read a post that’s talking about salvstion by grace and through faith again the scriptures are saying it and then say “ you poster are adding to salvstion by grace through faith “

how is acknolwedging what’s written in everyone else’s Bible too … adding irrelevant things piling up things people shouldn’t hear and believe ?

This is true and already in the Bible

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we have a bit of a misunderstanding I’m not adding that it’s already there I presented what’s there and I’m wanting to talk about it with other people who believe the Bible

I don’t post here to argue against what the Bible says I’m here to talk about what it says not what I think it might say not my theory of salvstion not my amazing prophetic godt that no one else has ect ect none of that is me

just an old fool who believes the Bible is true and authentically what God has said to mankind and it’s all true so my nephew found this forum because he thought it’s a forum to discuss what the Bible says with others who believe it too

for instance what do you think Paul was getting at here ?

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What do you think Paul’s teaching there ? Or here ? What do you suppose this is in his epistles regularly for ? Any thoughts on how it fits into the doctrine ?
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

got any thoughts or other scripture that could offer more to those points ? Without saying they are adding things to it but got any thoughts on how that fits o to e things the Bible says ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

1 Cor 3~~12Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13each one’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test [e]the quality of each one’s work. 14If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.

Good scripture let’s look at what he’s saying before and after that to add some Sox text and understanding Paul was addressing the arguing over “ I follow Paul another argued I follow Apollos another I follow
Peter they were always contending over everything so paup teaches them some things

So he begins with the issue they were participating in

“And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:1, 3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he continues beginning to explain about the teachers among them

“Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.




According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


( now his point about teachers building upon a different foundation other than that laid out on the gospel )

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; every man's work ( he’s been explaining about the laborers with god and how they would receive fornthier labors ) shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire;
and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:5-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

would you agree that Paul’s talking about the ministers and whether what they are building upon the gospel is correct ? That d doesn’t change the things the Bible teaches us about eternal judgement

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Awee nownof I wanted to reject that plain truth I could try this I could read it and the. Do this I can say no that’s not true look at this verse

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But the truth is I’ve just tried to reject what Paul taught about eternal
Judgement and our deeds and our need to repent and what’s gonna happen if we don’t and I’ve rejected that based on a verse from where Paul’s talking about something else plucking it from what he’s saying elsewhere trying to muse it to disrupt e very straight forwards statement about judgement and our deeds and see it’s not misunderstood or Paul mistaken or anything because it’s repetitively teeter by many again and again Jesus his apostles the ot prophets the lord from heaven in the ot ect

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul agreed

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I try not to let single verses disqualify what’s being said in sections It’s all true this is true

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s just a truth that we need to accept we do have to repent and obey the lord that is part of salvation it’s not the cause it is the result nd we don’t just magically know it we have to learn from the gospel we’re disciples that’s what Christian’s are , disciples of Christ

To believers there’s a reason Paul insisted this be taught constantly

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

of anyone does that several people have a real issue mmediarely hey start saying “ salcstion by works adding to the e gospel “ but lol it’s there why would I ignore it and condemn myself ? Why would inpretend it’s not there when I know it is in every book ?

Ot would t make any sense ….for me at my age to pretend I don’t know what I know the Bible says it would condemn me if I didn’t know it I could act like I didn’t and be okay but I know what’s th re in the Bible I can show you it too but I can’t now pretend it’s not there I’m sorry some of you have issues with my posts and don’t agree I’m okay with it though

To be clear doesn’t mean I’m special doesn’t mean I’m right doesn’t mean you or anyone else needs to agree with me but my position is the Bible is really really clear if we just read it and take it in and most importantly ask God to help us hear it

It’s all true and relevant and makes sense of we look at it like any other subject man wants to know it’s the same process we take in the right information and learn it then we know and it can lead us internally

all that said friend I’ve never talked about how someone won’t be saved … that’s something other people bring to my posts mine are talking about what the Bible says in its text

Right so saved by grace true statement fully acceptable through faith fully acceptable to me now what’s the Bible say about gods grace and our faith ? That’s my point of posting we can all agree and say “ we’re saved by grace through faith “ that’s true

a now let’s learn what that really means tangibly for us again don’t let me explain everything but let’s talk about what the Bible says it means grace through faith …..

I think it’s a pretty legitimate reason for being in a Bible discussion forum itnisnt a seminary or Bible college isn’t forum for competing teachers it’s a forum to discuss what’s in the Bible

at least that’s what I would think a Bible discussion forum is for

 

[Evmur]

So we should not learn what the Bible says and believe and share that because why ? How am I adding anything lol I’m quoting Paul and what he said about grace is this adding anything to saved by grace ?


“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

show do you guys come to a Bible discussion forum read a post that’s talking about salvstion by grace and through faith again the scriptures are saying it and then say “ you poster are adding to salvstion by grace through faith “

how is acknolwedging what’s written in everyone else’s Bible too … adding irrelevant things piling up things people shouldn’t hear and believe ?

This is true and already in the Bible

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we have a bit of a misunderstanding I’m not adding that it’s already there I presented what’s there and I’m wanting to talk about it with other people who believe the Bible

I don’t post here to argue against what the Bible says I’m here to talk about what it says not what I think it might say not my theory of salvstion not my amazing prophetic godt that no one else has ect ect none of that is me

just an old fool who believes the Bible is true and authentically what God has said to mankind and it’s all true so my nephew found this forum because he thought it’s a forum to discuss what the Bible says with others who believe it too

for instance what do you think Paul was getting at here ?

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What do you think Paul’s teaching there ? Or here ? What do you suppose this is in his epistles regularly for ? Any thoughts on how it fits into the doctrine ?
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

got any thoughts or other scripture that could offer more to those points ? Without saying they are adding things to it but got any thoughts on how that fits o to e things the Bible says ?

These are written to mature christians, Paul did not preach these things in the Acts of the Apostles.

They are written "now that we are saved" not so that we may [or may not] be saved.

We don't even understand these things until we are saved.

Salvation is not discipleship. Salvation is FREE. The only condition is faith.

This is what Isaiah meant when he said clear away the rubble make straight the way of the Lord.

 

[Evmur]

Why do you consider Titus 2:11-13 to be hearsay?

You are preaching heresy, you are demanding works of grace before the grace is given.

Our salvation is a free gift not dependent upon works before or after regeneration. Sheep are sheep whether they are woolly or not.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

These are written to mature christians, Paul did not preach these things in the Acts of the Apostles.

They are written "now that we are saved" not so that we may [or may not] be saved.

We don't even understand these things until we are saved.

Salvation is not discipleship. Salvation is FREE. The only condition is faith.

This is what Isaiah meant when he said clear away the rubble make straight the way of the Lord.

“These are written to mature christians, Paul did not preach these things in the Acts of the Apostles.”

….they are written to believers that need to hear what he’s saying he’s speaking not to “ mature Christian’s only “ and the book of acts has I think three sermons or so by Paul bit tells us he preached day and night for three years just at Ephesus before he parted for rome three full years paul was preaching the gospel of the kingdom the same gospel Jesus preached

You are just avoiding it brother it doesn’t matter if a scripture is in acts or luke or Galatians it’s meant for. Whoever’s to hear Paul wasn’t writing to then because they already knew these things and didn’t need to learn

the truth is it’s just part of the doctrine money is many peoples false god they love it more than god serve it are greedy with it ealk right past the needy and don’t even think to help them that’s all not of God . It’s why from the start of this I showed you a very clear nd really unavoidable statement by Paul supported by several statements of Jesus

this one here it seems like you just aren’t willing to let this be true but that’s just my opinion I believe this now true that’s my simple position

“For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; that thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭6:7-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I believe we should learn to agree with what is there if we disagree the Bible is still going to say what it so we have to be humble and change what we thought

it sort of just says what it says again having some money isn’t evil but it can very easily corrupt a person and lead them where they don’t want to go me people simply can’t handle money others can it isn’t important to them they’ll share and give and love with money too ….that’s the goal

money isnt eternal it’s paper that men placed value upon a monitary system for trade but it holds everyone’s hopes and dreams in this world people will kill to get it sell drugs and destroy lives just to get that paper they’ll horde it because they know “ money is the key to this world “ I can buy anything I want I’ll have security I’ll have the money to get out of situations ect

Money is an object man’s desire and greed for money is evil mans servitude to money is an nomination to God

whether younhave alotnof money or live under a bridge with nothing neither is a fan of being cursed that’s all
Old Testament stuff has nothing to do with the new testement money is just a thing we don’t want to make it more than a way to have needs met not only ours but those we can meet

again that’s the goal

It seems simple to me read what Jesus and the apostles taught and believe that even if we have to change our former opinion that’s what truth does isn’t it ? Corrects and teaches and offers the truth

 

[Soyeong]

This issue here is salvation.

It says we have been saved. It is a completed act.

In this sense, As paul said here and in Romans 4 and titus 3 and other areas. This gift of salvation this gift of rescue, this gift of being made safe, or as scripture said, put in a place of rest, because we have ceased from trying to work to earn Gods favor and be restored with him, a work that was impossible to do..

This is the point at which we are adopted. and made a child of God. this is where our christian walk begins

All the works come after this moment, They are a result of salvation. If we are still trying to work to receive the grace of salvation. we have missed the point of the gospel to begin with. And we will fail to be saved. because we have yet to fully repent and trust God

It is not the case that God gave His law as instructions for how to earn His favor as a wage and that we need to be saved from being required to have first followed His instructions, but rather our salvation is from sin, which is being saved from not following His instructions, which intrinsically involves following God's instructions. For example, being saved from not honoring our parents intrinsically involves honoring our parents.

The Bible describes our salvation in the past, present, and future tenses, so we have been saved from the penalty of our sin (Ephesians 2:5), we are being saved from continuing to live in sin (Philippians 2:12), and we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord (Romans 5:9). Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live sin, so there must also be an aspect of our salvation from sin that is ongoing in the present, which is in accordance with Titus 2:11-13, which again does not say that we are required to have first done those works in order to become saved as the result or that we will do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather it describes part of the content of God's gift of salvation as being trained by grace to do those works. The gift of salvation is the experience of knowing God and Jesus and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience in the present, which has nothing to do with being required to have first done work in order to receive grace.

If you trust in God for salvation. You have come to the point you have confessed and acknowledge that your trust in self and lack of trust in God in your life decisions are why you were dead to begin with. No one is going to trust in God for salvation. and think that is enough, they can go on living like they did.

Anyone who thinks this just proves they have not really repented. And do not really trust God to begin with.

They may have belief, but that belief has not moved to actual saving faith

When some does something in obedience to God's law, then the significance is not that it is part of something that they are required to have done first in order to earn their salvation, but rather the significance is that they are expressing trust in God and it is by that trust that they are saved.

Once again,

You can not read eph 2: 8-9 about how we have been saved. and add works.

That is a false gospel. and rejects the grace of God.

Doing works is part of the Gospel Christ (Matthew 4:15-23) and the Gospel that Paul taught (Romans 15:18-19), so you are saying that they taught a false Gospel. Again, Ephesians 2:8-10 describes our salvation as being new creations in Christ to do good works, so I'm not adding works. Likewise Titus 2:11-13 does not add works to having first been saved, but describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do those works, which is the opposite of rejecting the grace of God.

This ignores titus 3: 5 that says we were saved By Gods mercy not by good deeds we have done

Salvation is not being trained by Grace. It is being saved by Grace..

Titus 2:11-13 describing our salvation as being trained by grace to do those works does not ignore Titus 3:5, but rather it is in accordance with it. While there are many verses like Romans 4:1-5 and and Titus 3:5 that deny that we can earn our salvation/justification/eternal life as the result of having first obeyed God's law, there are also many verses like Romans 2:13 and Hebrews 5:9 that affirm that they require us to choose to be doohe rs of the law, so there must be a reason why they require us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn them as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to be obeyers of God's law, but rather our faith upholds it.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it I also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified as also expressed as being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his justification as a wage as the result of having first obeyed God (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were expressing his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

Paul actually calls those who try to maintain salvation by the flesh fools in Gal 3

While Paul spoke in Galatians 3 against earning our justification as the result of having first done works of the law, he did not speak against the content of God's gift of salvation being trained by grace to obey God's law.

 

[Soyeong]

Salvation is unmerited. It's a gift. Rest in that hope(guarantee.)

Those who are working to add to that gift or to maintain that gift LOSE out on all God has elected us to and predestined for us.

The motivation has to be the right motivation for the rewards He has predestined for us. The moment we are saved those things we are elected to and predestined for are available to us. But we lose them if the motivation is not right.

If the motivation is to maintain or keep His gift.........We LOSE. And it's not just losing a piece of candy. It's eternal reward. the consequences are no small matter.

I said:

"The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing works, such as giving someone the opportunity to drive a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work has nothing to do with trying to earn the gift of the opportunity to drive it as a wage. Likewise, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus and God's law is the gift His instructions for how to have that experience, not for how to earn it as a wage."

Again, Titus 2:11-13 describes the content of God's gift of salvation as being trained by grace to do those works, so that is not adding our works to the gift of salvation, but rather the experience of doing those works is itself the content of the gift of being saved from not doing those works. If someone ceases to participate in being trained by grace to do those works, then they are rejecting the content of God's gift of salvation, and can no longer accurately be consider to still have it.

 

[Soyeong]

You are still confused. Verses 8 and 9 are about JUSTIFICATION. Verse 10 is about SANCTIFICATION. So kindly go to Romans chapter 4 to see what justification is all about. When a person is justified he or she is saved by grace through faith. Then comes the process of sanctification, which does not save, but proves that you are saved.

These verses state that they are speaking about salvation and do not state anything to distinguish between justification and sanctification, but rather that is you reading your theology into them. Likewise, Titus 2:11-13 describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do those works.

Abraham was justified in Genesis 12 when he obeyed God's command to go to the land where he would receive his inheritance (Hebrews 11:8), he was justified in Genesis 15:6 when he believed God (Romans 4:1-5, James 2:21-24), and he was justified in Genesis 22 when he offered Issac (Hebrews 11:17, James 2:21-24). We have been sanctified (Hebrews 10:10, we are being sanctified (Hebrews 10:14), and we will be sanctified when he who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6). Being saved from counting to live in sin is part of our salvation from sin, not a processes that happens after we have been saved.