The Trinity

[GRACE_ambassador]

We need to focus on how to learn from Jesus about the truth of life.
What's the truth of life?
Obedience to the word of God.

Not Discussing whether or not Jesus is God.

Obeying is good, but should we just ignore about knowing Him?:

What saith Paul, Inspired of God, to the carnal Corinthians who thought
they "were obeying the Word Of God," about the 'gifts of the Spirit'
[they were actually abusing]?:

1Co_2:2 "For I determined not to know any thing​

among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him Crucified."​

​

How about no longer knowing Him as 'The Humble Servant' on the
earth, But Now As The Risen and Glorified Lord, and Head Of The
Heavenly Church, Which Is His Body?:

2Co_5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after​

the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after​

the flesh, yet now henceforth know we Him no more."​

+

Eph_1:22 "And hath put all things under His Feet, and gave​

Him to be The Head over all things to the church"​

+

Col_1:18 "And He is The Head of the Body, the church: Who​

is The Beginning, The Firstborn from the dead; that in all​

things He might have The Preeminence."​

​

And further knowledge of Him:

Php_3:10 "That I may know Him, and The Power of His​

Resurrection, and the fellowship of His Sufferings, being​

made conformable unto His Death"​

2Ti_1:12 "For the which cause I also suffer these things:​

nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know Whom I have​

believed, and am persuaded that He Is Able to keep that​

which I have committed unto Him against that day."​

​

How about knowing Him As "The God Of Vengeance"?:

Heb_10:30 "For we know Him that hath said, Vengeance​

belongeth unto Me, I will recompense, saith the Lord.​

And again, The Lord Shall Judge His people."​

(cp Isaiah 61:12; Nahum 1:2)​

How is that we know we are Correctly obeying Him and His Word,
when we have not Correctly identified Him?

In which case there remains the Triple problem of another Jesus,
shown in post 455, Correct?:

The Lord Jesus Christ not Correctly Identified?:​

​

Tit_1:16 "They profess that they ↑ know God; ↑ but in works​

they deny Him, being abominable, and disobedient, and​

unto every good work reprobate."​

​

Conclusion: It is Biblically Important to:

Know Him As The Center of The Triune GodHead!​

And obey His Word!!:

2Co_13:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith;​

prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how​

that Jesus Christ [ God ] is in you, except ye be reprobates?"​

Amen.

 

[CS1]

Good. Your argument is not that one needs to know all the details about a person to believe in that person.
So, to believe in Jesus FOR SALVATION one does not need to believe about Jesus anything other than what THE BIBLE SAYS is obligatory FOR SALVATION. We cannot elevate sectarian dogma on what is necessary for salvation above what God in the Bible expressly states is necessary for salvation.

So, where in scripture does it expressly declare that we must believe in Jesus' deity to believe effectively in Jesus for salvation? Or even in the earliest list of Christian tenets, the Apostle's Creed, does an unequivocal profession of Jesus' deity occur, for that matter.
You argument is a circular reasoning burger with special pleading sauce.
You take biblical statements about Jesus that are literally true of many other persons and insist they have a special denotation in Jesus' case because Jesus is not just human but also God. and then use the special denotation you have read into the text to prove that the text is declaring your special denotation to be true of Jesus. Completely an exercise in circular and special pleading.

I don't particularly care if you convince yourself with this into believing that you must believe that Jesus is God to be saved. But I do find it objectionable that you are insisting that unbelievers must accept your illogical reasoning to arrive at the same conclusion as you before they can be saved. That kind of behaviour is what Jesus called putting a stumbling block before people and hindering them from entering the Kingdom. They cannot come like a child and trust the person God has validated by death and resurrection as the Saviour, but they have to be intellectually sophisticated before they can receive some esoteric gnosis about Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit that will save them?

I object to your methodology, even though I have come to believe, from growing in my knowledge of Jesus and the Father through scripture and experience, that Jesus is the third divine Person in a triune Godhead.

If you Believe in Jesus, you believe in all that Jesus Claimed to be.

• 1cor 12:3 He is Lord
• JOHN 3:16 the Son of God
• Matthew 1:23 God with US
• Matthew 16:16 Son of the Living God
• Is 53:5 Mark 2:11 Healer
• John 4:42 Savior
• Rev 22:13 Alpha and Omega
• Rev 1:8 That which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
• John 11:2526 The Resurrection and the Life
• John 14:6 The Way, the Truth, and the Life The only way, the Only Truth, and the only Life.

When you were baptized, did you not know you were buried with Christ? Therefore, you will be raised with HIM.

Every Knee shall bow and Worship HIM, which is something we only do to God and confess HIM as Lord. God is the Only Judge
YET, Jesus will Judge the world. Jesus is God because of His action, Proclaim it, and IF you don't believe it, You don't know him.

 

[Obedience]

Like this?

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Here Jacob not only wrestles with God physically, he also was allowed to see His face and live.

Because Job is obedient to the word of God, so he could face to face and alive.

That's what I want to emphasize, which is learning about Jesus' obedience.

 

[ewq1938]

Because Job is obedient to the word of God, so he could face to face and alive.

That's what I want to emphasize, which is learning about Jesus' obedience.

And my point is many people saw God and lived.


1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Because Job is obedient to the word of God, so he could face to face and alive.

That's what I want to emphasize, which is learning about Jesus' obedience.

now that i have shown Jesus admitting He is THE LIVING GOD and Others have shown people were able to be in the Presence of God and not die, let's do talk about Obedience.

For one, i completely adhere to Following the Commands of Jesus from the Lord's Prayer to we must be Hearing, Following, Abiding in Him.

and my reasoning is simple.

Some Doctrines claim Obeying Christ is the thing we must be doing.
Some Doctrines claim Obeying Christ is WORKS.

well, one way or another, if You Obey Jesus, or you Obey the Doctrine that claims it is Works, you are STILL Obeying something.

we [[ONLY OBEY]] what we make as our God.

So, you are either Obeying God
or
you are Obeying Man Made Doctrine.

one of those, is the God/god of most people professing to be Saved.

 

[just_truth]

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me

https://christianchat.com/filipino-...rns-into-a-professing-christian.177016/page-3

 

[Underwhosewings]

US

Our image
Our likeness

God the Son is creator.

Genesis 1:26 KJV
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
John 1:1 KJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Revelation 19:13 KJV
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

 

[PaulThomson]

Paul wrote - Can you cite from a Christian source from 2000 years ago that declares all Christians must believe that Jesus is God?

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me

You must be joking. How does this verse show that all Christians must believe that Jesus is God?

 

[PaulThomson]

Gotcha. In Matthew 16 Peter says Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. He goes on to say that this is the rock, or basis, to build the church. Do you believe someone becomes part of the church when saved? If so, what does someone understand in a profession that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of the living God?

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit
and born of the virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

There is no 'The Son is God" claim made in the Apostle's Creed. summarising the church's Faith before the Nicean Council AD 325.

 

[Cameron143]

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit
and born of the virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

There is no 'The Son is God" claim made in the Apostle's Creed. summarising the church's Faith before the Nicean Council AD 325.

It is interesting that you would use a creed to make your point. The creeds are succinct statements of faith used to clarify doctrine, and not to prove salvation.
I would agree that it is difficult to say for sure exactly what one believes about Christ when they are saved. It is a time fraught with emotion and newness. One is certainly convinced of their utter sinfulness, and a need for Jesus to pay for their sins. And having asked for forgiveness, there is a certainty that He has done so. And the life of Christ is imparted to the convert. And it is different for each as the process of salvation is short for some and seems instantaneous, while for others, the process can take years.
So you make a fair point. But I wouldn't use a creed to make it. Lord is used to describe Jesus, and His birth is anything but natural. He is also spoken of as the Son of God. All of these things assume He is God.

 

[CorrectiveLens]

Paul wrote - Can you cite from a Christian source from 2000 years ago that declares all Christians must believe that Jesus is God?

You must be joking. How does this verse show that all Christians must believe that Jesus is God?

Deut 4 : 35 Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the Lord, He is God; there is none else beside Him.
Does "beside Him" mean that He is the only God or does it mean that there is no other God at His level because all other gods are inferior to Him and that would make Him alone at the top? If the second is true, then Christ, who is the image of the invisible God (the Father), is the Lord and God of all creation, but the Father is the one God of all (including Jesus Christ).
Our reality is in the mind of the Father. That is why He has those Godlike qualities such as being everywhere, knowing what every person thinks and feels, can creating out of nothing, knowing everything, determining the past, present, and future, has always existed, can create realities, etc.
The beginning of our reality started when the Father placed a living being in it, with his own mind, heart, and soul, and through which he would be able to interact. The vehicle for this interaction is His Holy Spirit. The Father fills this living being with His Holy Spirit so that this living being is filled with His presence and together they create our reality. Our reality was created by the Father through this being. That is what is meant by the expression "sitting on the right hand of the Father". This being was the first and only being formed from the Father and he is the temple of the Father in our reality. That is why this being is the offspring of the Father and is referred to as the Son of God, and the image of the invisible God, because the Father's presence (His Holy Spirit) resides in His Son. The Father loves His Son and the Son loves the Father and obeys Him. The Son's will might differ from the Father, but the Son subjugates His will to the Father's. The Father created all things in our reality through His Son and for His Son. All things created are placed by the Father under the Son's feet. I believe that makes the Son Lord of all creation as well as the God of all creation, but the Father is the one God of all, including His Son.
Isaiah 63: 9-10 In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the angel of His presence saved them; and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit; therefore, He was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
In this scripture Isaiah is stating that the Holy Spirit is the angel of God's (the Father's) presence. Where His Holy Spirit is, the Father is.

Col 1: 15-16 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation; For by him were all things created, that are in heaven , and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers--all things were created by him and for him; and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

[PaulThomson]

CorrectiveLens said,

"Deut 4 : 35 Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the Lord, He is God; there is none else beside Him.
Does "beside Him" mean that He is the only God or does it mean that there is no other God at His level because all other gods are inferior to Him and that would make Him alone at the top? If the second is true, then Christ, who is the image of the invisible God (the Father), is the Lord and God of all creation, but the Father is the one God of all (including Jesus Christ).
Our reality is in the mind of the Father. That is why He has those Godlike qualities such as being everywhere, knowing what every person thinks and feels, can creating out of nothing, knowing everything, determining the past, present, and future, has always existed, can create realities, etc.
The beginning of our reality started when the Father placed a living being in it, with his own mind, heart, and soul, and through which he would be able to interact. The vehicle for this interaction is His Holy Spirit. The Father fills this living being with His Holy Spirit so that this living being is filled with His presence and together they create our reality. Our reality was created by the Father through this being. That is what is meant by the expression "sitting on the right hand of the Father". This being was the first and only being formed from the Father and he is the temple of the Father in our reality. That is why this being is the offspring of the Father and is referred to as the Son of God, and the image of the invisible God, because the Father's presence (His Holy Spirit) resides in His Son. The Father loves His Son and the Son loves the Father and obeys Him. The Son's will might differ from the Father, but the Son subjugates His will to the Father's. The Father created all things in our reality through His Son and for His Son. All things created are placed by the Father under the Son's feet. I believe that makes the Son Lord of all creation as well as the God of all creation, but the Father is the one God of all, including His Son.
Isaiah 63: 9-10 In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the angel of His presence saved them; and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit; therefore, He was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
In this scripture Isaiah is stating that the Holy Spirit is the angel of God's (the Father's) presence. Where His Holy Spirit is, the Father is.

Col 1: 15-16 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation; For by him were all things created, that are in heaven , and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers--all things were created by him and for him; and he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

Nothing above says a person must believe that Jesus is God to be born again.

 

[CS1]

Paul wrote - Can you cite from a Christian source from 2000 years ago that declares all Christians must believe that Jesus is God?

You must be joking. How does this verse show that all Christians must believe that Jesus is God?

LOL. First off, it is a Fundamental truth. If Jesus is not God, he is imperfect to pay for the sins of the world.

It means he is a man like any other prophet before him. Only God is without Sin. No other person in the Bible can say that But Jesus because he is God. Those who attack Jesus as not being fully God and fully man who was from the beginning and has no end and not a created being but is Eternal as God has to be GOD. The Holy Spirit has to even Speak of Jesus and bring to our remembrance all Jesus has said; why? Because is is the Word of God made Flesh and IS GOD.

 

[CS1]

CorrectiveLens said,

"Deut 4 : 35 Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the Lord, He is God; there is none else beside Him.
Does "beside Him" mean that He is the only God or does it mean that there is no other God at His level because all other gods are inferior to Him and that would make Him alone at the top? If the second is true, then Christ, who is the image of the invisible God (the Father), is the Lord and God of all creation, but the Father is the one God of all (including Jesus Christ).
Our reality is in the mind of the Father. That is why He has those Godlike qualities such as being everywhere, knowing what every person thinks and feels, can creating out of nothing, knowing everything, determining the past, present, and future, has always existed, can create realities, etc.
The beginning of our reality started when the Father placed a living being in it, with his own mind, heart, and soul, and through which he would be able to interact. The vehicle for this interaction is His Holy Spirit. The Father fills this living being with His Holy Spirit so that this living being is filled with His presence and together they create our reality. Our reality was created by the Father through this being. That is what is meant by the expression "sitting on the right hand of the Father". This being was the first and only being formed from the Father and he is the temple of the Father in our reality. That is why this being is the offspring of the Father and is referred to as the Son of God, and the image of the invisible God, because the Father's presence (His Holy Spirit) resides in His Son. The Father loves His Son and the Son loves the Father and obeys Him. The Son's will might differ from the Father, but the Son subjugates His will to the Father's. The Father created all things in our reality through His Son and for His Son. All things created are placed by the Father under the Son's feet. I believe that makes the Son Lord of all creation as well as the God of all creation, but the Father is the one God of all, including His Son.
Isaiah 63: 9-10 In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the angel of His presence saved them; and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit; therefore, He was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
In this scripture Isaiah is stating that the Holy Spirit is the angel of God's (the Father's) presence. Where His Holy Spirit is, the Father is.

Col 1: 15-16 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation; For by him were all things created, that are in heaven , and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers--all things were created by him and for him; and he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

Nothing above says a person must believe that Jesus is God to be born again.

Nothing says Jesus is not God in the very text. The Truth it affirms he is God. You shall know the truth! as the Truth shall set you free

FYI, Jesus is this Way, the Life, and the Truth! The only way, the only life, and the only Truth!. Self-deception and errored Bible interpretation don't hide the Truth of the Lord Jesus Christ. Only willful denial does.

 

[ewq1938]

It is interesting that you would use a creed to make your point. The creeds are succinct statements of faith used to clarify doctrine, and not to prove salvation.
I would agree that it is difficult to say for sure exactly what one believes about Christ when they are saved. It is a time fraught with emotion and newness. One is certainly convinced of their utter sinfulness, and a need for Jesus to pay for their sins. And having asked for forgiveness, there is a certainty that He has done so. And the life of Christ is imparted to the convert. And it is different for each as the process of salvation is short for some and seems instantaneous, while for others, the process can take years.
So you make a fair point. But I wouldn't use a creed to make it. Lord is used to describe Jesus, and His birth is anything but natural. He is also spoken of as the Son of God. All of these things assume He is God.

There is no assumption. Being the only begotten Son of God the Father is direct evidence that Jesus is God. Like begats like.

 

[Cameron143]

There is no assumption. Being the only begotten Son of God the Father is direct evidence that Jesus is God. Like begats like.

Which is why using a creed seems unusual. But I've never met anyone who came to faith reciting a creed.

 

[CorrectiveLens]

CorrectiveLens said,

"Deut 4 : 35 Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the Lord, He is God; there is none else beside Him.
Does "beside Him" mean that He is the only God or does it mean that there is no other God at His level because all other gods are inferior to Him and that would make Him alone at the top? If the second is true, then Christ, who is the image of the invisible God (the Father), is the Lord and God of all creation, but the Father is the one God of all (including Jesus Christ).
Our reality is in the mind of the Father. That is why He has those Godlike qualities such as being everywhere, knowing what every person thinks and feels, can creating out of nothing, knowing everything, determining the past, present, and future, has always existed, can create realities, etc.
The beginning of our reality started when the Father placed a living being in it, with his own mind, heart, and soul, and through which he would be able to interact. The vehicle for this interaction is His Holy Spirit. The Father fills this living being with His Holy Spirit so that this living being is filled with His presence and together they create our reality. Our reality was created by the Father through this being. That is what is meant by the expression "sitting on the right hand of the Father". This being was the first and only being formed from the Father and he is the temple of the Father in our reality. That is why this being is the offspring of the Father and is referred to as the Son of God, and the image of the invisible God, because the Father's presence (His Holy Spirit) resides in His Son. The Father loves His Son and the Son loves the Father and obeys Him. The Son's will might differ from the Father, but the Son subjugates His will to the Father's. The Father created all things in our reality through His Son and for His Son. All things created are placed by the Father under the Son's feet. I believe that makes the Son Lord of all creation as well as the God of all creation, but the Father is the one God of all, including His Son.
Isaiah 63: 9-10 In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the angel of His presence saved them; and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit; therefore, He was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
In this scripture Isaiah is stating that the Holy Spirit is the angel of God's (the Father's) presence. Where His Holy Spirit is, the Father is.

Col 1: 15-16 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation; For by him were all things created, that are in heaven , and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers--all things were created by him and for him; and he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

Nothing above says a person must believe that Jesus is God to be born again.

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
How important is it to understand the Trinity? To those that claim that the Trinity is a mystery beyond our understanding, from a brother who loves you, you had better do a better job of investigating before giving up and declaring " It's a mystery." Knowing the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is the basis for understanding Scripture. Jesus is the Christ. He is our Lord, our God, and our Savior, but the Father is the One God of all (including Jesus). Two entities are mentioned: the one true God and Jesus Christ. The only true God can only refer to the one who sent Christ, which is the Father.
Eph 1: 3 Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ,
It is the Father who is the God of Jesus and who blesses us with spiritual blessings in Christ. We are in Christ when we become part of Christ's body. This happens when we receive the Father's Spirit which was given to Jesus when Jesus was glorified.

 

[CorrectiveLens]

In answer to your question: All things created are placed by the Father under the Son's feet. I believe that makes the Son Lord of all creation as well as the God of all creation, but the Father is the one God of all, including His Son.

 

[Underwhosewings]

Isaiah 9:6-7 KJV
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[7] Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

 

[PaulThomson]

LOL. First off, it is a Fundamental truth. If Jesus is not God, he is imperfect to pay for the sins of the world.

Do you realise that we have no mention of the idea of penal substitution as an explanation for the crucifixion until Anselm introduced it into the church around AD 1100?