The Security Of The Believer

[Mem]

They are writing these things from a more perfect understanding and viewpoint than we could ever know.

So, making hard core Doctrines for modern day issues will never match up.

Are you saying that they were more righteous as Christians?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Are you saying that they were more righteous as Christians?

no, these letters we see from like John, you can see by how he is explaining what he writes that it's in a way the Jews would understand much better than we do 2,000 years later.

they are more tailored made for the Jews than us 2,000 years later.

 

[Mem]

no, these letters we see from like John, you can see by how he is explaining what he writes that it's in a way the Jews would understand much better than we do 2,000 years later.

they are more tailored made for the Jews than us 2,000 years later.

1 John 2:17
The world is passing away, along with its desires; but whoever does the will of God remains forever.


It is often been asserted that Jesus came to establish the law rather than abolish it.

But searching out the answer led me a reference back to Psalm 40 in Hebrews 10:
9 He takes away the first to establish the second.
10And by that will, we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

which subsequently led to a reference back Jeremiah 31

15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First He says:
16“This is the covenant I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord.
I will put My laws in their hearts
and inscribe them on their minds.”

17Then He adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”
18And where these have been forgiven, an offering for sin is no longer needed.


notice 17, "Then He adds," follows "I will put My laws in their hearts and inscribe them on their minds" which seems to suggest a sort of backward sequence. That is, 'their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more and where these have been forgiven, an offering for sin is no longer needed" would seem more properly sequenced before God has "put My laws in their hearts and inscribe them on their minds." However, although it might seem to me more properly sequenced to interpret that way, I'm ever mindful of God's perfect order so I have to receive it as given. I mean, it is not as though God forgot to mention and then added it.

God puts His laws in our hearts and inscribes them on our minds and our sins and lawless acts He will remember no more and here these have been forgiven and an offering for sin is no longer needed.

And it seems to me that it would be an awfully rude gesture to ask for forgiveness where it has already been given.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

And it seems to me that it would be an awfully rude gesture to ask for forgiveness where it has already been given.

why?
Jesus commanded to ask for Forgiveness and to forgive every day in the Prayer He taught His Disciples.
Clearly, Jesus, was well aware that Sinning after being Saved was something going to happen and He not only said to Ask for Forgiveness, but added, if we do not Forgive those who Sin against us, the Father, would not forgive our own Sins.

so, i think you could be misunderstanding your Scriptural references.

 

[Magenta]

I don't know. Was prostitution as illegal then as it is today? I had the impression that it was a common everyday vocation.

All the men who brought the adulterous woman to Jesus for stoning, ALL of them walked away when
Jesus said, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to cast a stone at her.” Why? Yeah, porn
may not have been as prevalent then as now, but lust/adultery was just as much a problem then.

This idea that men of Biblical times were not as sinful strikes me as strange, indeed.
God flooded the whole world because of the ubiquitous sinful, evil, wickedness of man.

 

[Mem]

All the men who brought the adulterous woman to Jesus for stoning, ALL of them walked away when
Jesus said, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to cast a stone at her.” Why? Yeah, porn
may not have been as prevalent then as now, but lust/adultery was just as much a problem then.

This idea that men of Biblical times were not as sinful strikes me as strange, indeed.
God flooded the whole world because of the ubiquitous sinful, evil, wickedness of man.

And the examples of Sodom, Gomorrah, and Babylon, which are cities that emerged after the flood, are often employed in the description of current times.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

And the examples of Sodom, Gomorrah, and Babylon, which are cities that emerged after the flood, are often employed in the description of current times.

but the mention does not relate to Sin:

37. But just as the days of Noah, so will the coming of The Son of Man be.
38. For just as they were eating and drinking before the flood, and they were taking wives, and they were taking husbands, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

^
no mention of sinning or specific types of sin

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

what was Jesus biggest complaint to the Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes?
they created their own Interpretation of the Torah/Tanakh/LAW and used it for profit.

in other words, they made False Doctrines.
Jesus called them Traditions of Men.

Jesus shows us the Jews were more guilty of religious sins than anything else.

that's why i suggested, John, is writing specifically to the Jews.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

obviously, the Gentiles, were sacrificing babies, going to there Temples and having sex with prostitutes, beastiality, Idol Worship.

and the Jews were Perverting God's Law.

so the Writers of the Gospels and more, did not have to address these things because they're talking to the Jews, who were not making these types of sins habitual.

Paul, is who addresses these things, but, to the Gentiles mostly. because, the Gentiles, were the ones committing those sins in those days.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Another point that you can see that John is directing his letters to the Jews, like Jesus said, I long like a mother hen gathering her chick's. John said little children.

John was more like Jesus and they preached to the Jews.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I never argued that we are not Saved one time.

but even if you're cut off, you can always do as Jesus and John command, ask for Forgiveness.

being restored, doesn't mean being saved again.
it means, being restored to your former position on the Vine.

If you can lose salvation, your not really saved then are you?

And then you contradict yourself. by saying we are cut off (lost salvation) then are saved again.

We don;t get to make up our own definitions.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

the funny thing is, i present Scripture and i am using Scholar and Theologian meanings.
but as for you, you're answering straight out from the Calvin Doctrine.

And here we get to the issue. Your not arguing against me, your arguing against your perceived notion I somehow follow Calvin. Which I do not. I reject calvinism through and though. But you would not know that. because you only see what you want to see

i am, for debating purposes, using a conglomerate of combined viewpoints that happen to agree with one another.
and you are using the words of John Calvin.

Your using the words used by legalistic people since the beginning of time..

and on several topics, none of the scholars and theologians, think Calvin understands the Word of God [by never siding with his views]

I don't follow men. I study to show myself approved. a workman who needed not be ashamed....

and then you have the nerve to tell me to become poor in spirit,

And here we go. Lies. Please show where I told YOU to become poor in spirit..

while it's You, the experts don't believe has a clue.

Yet you just spent a whole post mocking me, and did not respond to a thing I said.

Nice try

so, maybe it is You, who should [from your own words] Until you become poor in spirit and realise this, You will never repent.

I already repented.

Your the one who thinks you can break the law and earn your salvation still.. not me..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

AMEN!!

how can you amen, when you mock those who believe in security?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I don't know. Was prostitution as illegal then as it is today? I had the impression that it was a common everyday vocation.

sin is sin is sin

it does not matter when it occurs. its rooted in the same issue. Self.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

If you can lose salvation, your not really saved then are you?

And then you contradict yourself. by saying we are cut off (lost salvation) then are saved again.

We don;t get to make up our own definitions.

Jesus commands to repent daily.

You might think that means nothing but when God tells you to repent daily, it doesn't matter what the Students say.

The only thing that matters is what the Master claims.

If you reject the Masters Command to repent daily, just really how secure can you be?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

And here we get to the issue. Your not arguing against me, your arguing against your perceived notion I somehow follow Calvin. Which I do not. I reject calvinism through and though. But you would not know that. because you only see what you want to see


Your using the words used by legalistic people since the beginning of time..


I don't follow men. I study to show myself approved. a workman who needed not be ashamed....


And here we go. Lies. Please show where I told YOU to become poor in spirit..


Yet you just spent a whole post mocking me, and did not respond to a thing I said.

Nice try


I already repented.

Your the one who thinks you can break the law and earn your salvation still.. not me..

You do not have to follow anyone to still be identified with them when your and their viewpoints align.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

how can you amen, when you mock those who believe in security?

Because you seem to reject the reason why the Master commands to repent daily.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

sin is sin is sin

it does not matter when it occurs. its rooted in the same issue. Self.

This coming from someone who believes in security to the point one can sin and not repent and still be Saved is a rather auspicious move on your part.

 

[Evmur]

For many years people have debated the Biblical doctrine of Security. Some have called it “once in grace, always in grace”, others “once saved, always saved”. However it is referred to, the doctrine of “The Security of the Believer” is the teaching that when a person accepts the Grace of God (i.e., by repentance and faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ), that person experiences a re-birth. The ‘old’ man dies (as far as the spirit is concerned) and is reborn as a new creation in Christ. The Holy Spirit seals this re-born spirit as a pledge or guarantee that the redemption that has begun in that person WILL come to fruition. This is SECURITY. God cannot lie. He does not lie. He will not lie. Ephesians 4:30 states, “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

Now whether one translates the word "eis" concretely with emphasis on direction and motion, with reference to time and duration, or in the abstract as “with reference to”, the ‘sealing’ points to ‘the day of redemption’. This is when Jesus returns and believers receive their glorified bodies (full redemption). Of course, when we become like Jesus, glorified body and all, we will not have to worry about a ‘sin’ nature for all eternity. But what about between the ‘day’ one believes and the ‘day’ of redemption? If this soul should decide to “jump out” of the hand of God, rebel and forsake his “Christian” walk, then what happens to the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. The idea behind this SEAL is an impress for privacy, secrecy, security, and authority. Kings sealed with a signet scrolls, letters, writings that were not to be read except at the appointed time and by the appointed individual. Daniel was told, “Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.” That means ‘forget it boys’, you’re not going to find out “till the time of the end.”

The point is simply this: The seal of the Holy Spirit (which protects the spirit of man) guarantees the safe and secure delivery of that soul to the day of redemption (of that soul). If, for ANY reason, that soul is not brought unto “the day of redemption”, then either the seal (Holy Spirit of God) has been broken (overpowered by a greater power -- which does not exist), or God simply lied. Neither is the case. Thus salvation and security are inseparable. One cannot have one without the other. If you are genuinely saved, then you are secure. And if you have not security, then you have not salvation.

If one is not ETERNALLY saved, then he is not saved at all.

that will do for me ... the clue is in the word God uses ... eternal life.

 

[Evmur]

For many years people have debated the Biblical doctrine of Security. Some have called it “once in grace, always in grace”, others “once saved, always saved”. However it is referred to, the doctrine of “The Security of the Believer” is the teaching that when a person accepts the Grace of God (i.e., by repentance and faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ), that person experiences a re-birth. The ‘old’ man dies (as far as the spirit is concerned) and is reborn as a new creation in Christ. The Holy Spirit seals this re-born spirit as a pledge or guarantee that the redemption that has begun in that person WILL come to fruition. This is SECURITY. God cannot lie. He does not lie. He will not lie. Ephesians 4:30 states, “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

Now whether one translates the word "eis" concretely with emphasis on direction and motion, with reference to time and duration, or in the abstract as “with reference to”, the ‘sealing’ points to ‘the day of redemption’. This is when Jesus returns and believers receive their glorified bodies (full redemption). Of course, when we become like Jesus, glorified body and all, we will not have to worry about a ‘sin’ nature for all eternity. But what about between the ‘day’ one believes and the ‘day’ of redemption? If this soul should decide to “jump out” of the hand of God, rebel and forsake his “Christian” walk, then what happens to the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. The idea behind this SEAL is an impress for privacy, secrecy, security, and authority. Kings sealed with a signet scrolls, letters, writings that were not to be read except at the appointed time and by the appointed individual. Daniel was told, “Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.” That means ‘forget it boys’, you’re not going to find out “till the time of the end.”

The point is simply this: The seal of the Holy Spirit (which protects the spirit of man) guarantees the safe and secure delivery of that soul to the day of redemption (of that soul). If, for ANY reason, that soul is not brought unto “the day of redemption”, then either the seal (Holy Spirit of God) has been broken (overpowered by a greater power -- which does not exist), or God simply lied. Neither is the case. Thus salvation and security are inseparable. One cannot have one without the other. If you are genuinely saved, then you are secure. And if you have not security, then you have not salvation.

If one is not ETERNALLY saved, then he is not saved at all.

We can fall from grace, we will not lose our eternal salvation .... but we may lose all our temporal blessings.

God has pledged to save us and He will ... even if He has to kill us.