The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

brightfame52 · Nov 26, 2023

This verse is absolutely true.

Romans 11:32 does not mention "Vessels of Mercy":

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

You continuously rip verses from context and then you conflate what is written in one section of Scripture with what is written in another section of Scripture and you end up not understanding what is written in any section of Scripture.

Romans 11:

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

the whole point is to bring our attention to the magnitude of the riches of God's wisdom and knowledge. God's judgments are unsearchable (we will never be able to search out God's wisdom and knowledge in His judgments) ... God's ways are past finding out (we will never find out the end of God's ways). No matter how long we live and how much we study Scripture. Even in new heaven / new earth ... when we have life everlasting ... we will never comprehend all of Who God is ... His mercies are beyond all we could ever know and understand.

... not according to these verses:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Mark 16:15-16 And he [the Lord Jesus Christ] said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Romans 2:5-8 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath

2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

... just more of your context-ignoring blathering.

the term "vessels of mercy" occurs one time in Scripture and that is in Romans 9:23:

Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

and, again, reading in context, we see these verses:

Romans 9:30-33 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The vessels of mercy are the whosoever believeth on Him.

Quit manipulating Scripture ... just read what is written and believe what the Author has written.

... nope ... Paul's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ "was the occasion for God having Mercy upon him and not condemning him !" for what Paul did prior to his coming to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

this statement completely contradicts what is written in Scripture:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Those who do not believe are judged because they do not believe. Period.

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

The unbelieving elect of God, are not condemned, but God shows them mercy in their unbelief

seemlesanctity · Nov 26, 2023

thank you brightfame52 for the reply

I really loved what you said about the sin of Adam who was created in the image of God and how that God does not tempt us, I found your reply very inspiring and encouraging. I see the other comments you have made and I am curious as to what this discussion is about, I have read through a lot of the back and forth but still am unable to fully grasp exactly the entirety of what you are saying but I will keep reading, for sure .

knowing also, as the scriptures say that we as humans are led astray by our own desires and the lusts and darkness within our own hearts brought about by disobedience and rebellion of our own free will.

reneweddaybyday · Nov 26, 2023

brightfame52 said:

Jesus was speaking to His closest disciples. He said these words just after supper had ended. Judas was no longer present (John 13:31) ... Jesus knew His time was at hand, so He spoke words of comfort and encouragement to His disciples. Jesus knew He had very little time remaining and He spoke words which were needful and necessary for His disciples to hear.

brightfame52 said:

why do you jump from John 14 to Hebrews 13? Why do you not read the whole record of the time Jesus had with His disciples just before His crucifixion ... learn what Jesus wanted His disciples to know at that crucial time in history?

Read from John 13:1 where we read when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

What did Jesus want His disciples to know ... what words of comfort, encouragement, warning, hope did He pass on to His closest friends and followers from John 13:1 through John 17:26?

brightfame52 said:

now you go back to John 10:26 ! ... what's up with that?

brightfame52 said:

now off to Revelation 1 ???

jump ... jump ... jump ... jump ... jump ... jump

brightfame52 said:

of all who have posted in this thread, you are the only one who believes that the words of the Lord Jesus Christ "are a light, a cheat, He is a false witness".

brightfame52 said:

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

yep ... whosoever believes in the Lord Jesus Christ has everlasting life. great promise.

do you believe???
.

reneweddaybyday · Nov 26, 2023

brightfame52 said:

... no such thing.

click
.

John146 · Nov 26, 2023

reneweddaybyday said:

Israel is God‘s elect nation, yet they are enemies of the gospel.

Romans 11
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

reneweddaybyday · Nov 26, 2023

John146 said:

when brightfame52 refers to "unbelieving elect", he does not mean unbelieving Jews.

your understanding of Israel as God's elect nation is quite different than brightfame52's "unbelieving elect" ...
.

brightfame52 · Nov 28, 2023

It produces newness of life or new birth !

Rom 6:4

4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Christ's Death for those He died for produces newness of life, or new birth . In Rom 6:4 Paul is explaining the end results of Christ having died for us, since those He died for died in union with Him, which death of His is called a baptism Lk 12:50

50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Or they were baptized with Him; He said it[His Baptism] was to be accomplished, the same said about His Death Lk 9:31

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

Jn 19:30

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished or accomplished: and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit.

30 After Yeshua had taken the wine, he said, “It is accomplished!” And, letting his head droop, he delivered up his spirit.CJB

So all for whom He died, as their Head and Shepherd Surety Representative, died or was baptized with Him; And in the same manner Christ their Head was raised from the dead by the Glory of the Father, likewise/even so we [His Body] should walk in Newness of Life, which is the New Birth or a Spiritual resurrection from the spiritual dead See Eph 2:5-6, and its this fact which is symbolized by water baptism !

Note: Folks water baptism is worthless if its not done with a spiritual understanding that the believers was in election union with Christ in His Our death, burial, and resurrection, if that was not comprehended when water baptized, it was in vain !

Peter states the same fact to believers, how they had been begotten again [from the dead] by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ [Their Head] from the dead 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by[because of] the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

And the words begotten us again anagennaó means:

I beget again, beget into a new life. hence in agreement with Pauls statement of Newness of Life in Rom 6:4; with these things in mind, its a given fact from the scripture of truth, that Christ's death for those He died for, produces for them a newness of life, just as sure and certain that He was raised up from the dead in their behalf and Justification Rom 4:25 ! 43

brightfame52 · Nov 30, 2023

Christ's death alone loosed us from our sins !

Rev 1:5

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Folks these things go hand and hand, Christ Loved us [His Church Eph 5:25] and so as a result He washed us [His Church] from our sins, no if and buts and maybes !

But now what does this washed us from our sins mean ? The word washed here is the greek word luó and means:

I loose, untie, release, (b) met: I break, destroy, set at naught, contravene; I break up a meeting, annul.

It means to discharge, set free !

To of something weighing upon or impeding over one, as a debt, claim, obligation, responsibility, accusation, etc.; to absolve; to acquit; to clear.

Those Christ Loved and died for are absolved, acquitted from all their sins, washed in that regard, and this even before they become believers, even though they shall become believers later ! You see their believing isn't what Loosed them from their sins, not at all, it was Christ's blood that accomplished that !

Its a True fact that Christ for them by His death has satisfied God's Law and Justice and have been legally loosed set free from all of its guilt, condemnation, and penalty [which is death],

Its just as a women has been loosed from the Law of her husband by his death Rom 7:2

2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Loosed:

to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from, anyone;

Also Paul states it in another way here Rom 6:7

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Yes those Christ Loved and died for are freed from sin, but yet this word freed carries with it the Truth of Justified, justified from sin !

They are Justified / freed from sin by the Body of Christ Rom 7:4 which means His death, or Blood.

Those Christ died for are washed, loosed from, clear from all charges and attending due punishment, regarding their sins.

Now false teachers would tell us that this freedom from their sins condemnation and punishment of them is not until they believe, which is a lie and a attempt to steal the Crown of Victory from Christ and His Love and His Blood ! Those of us He died for are loosed from our sins by His Blood alone !Rev 1:5

seemlesanctity · Nov 30, 2023

what is the topic for the discussion ?

I presented a statement regarding little newborn babies and the Original Sin as upheld by the Roman Catholic Faith System
I've received no reply about what Protestants have lately decided upon this Catholic teaching

please, if you would like to receive input from me, myself - please explain - what is the topic for the discussion.

i enjoyed reading the comments but still am not exactly sure what the comments are regarding.

brightfame52 · Dec 1, 2023

seemlesanctity said:

what is the topic for the discussion ?

I presented a statement regarding little newborn babies and the Original Sin as upheld by the Roman Catholic Faith System
I've received no reply about what Protestants have lately decided upon this Catholic teaching

please, if you would like to receive input from me, myself - please explain - what is the topic for the discussion.

i enjoyed reading the comments but still am not exactly sure what the comments are regarding.

The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

seemlesanctity · Dec 1, 2023

the Atonement accomplished a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ that is able to save us from sin and eternal separation and give eternal life

also the Atonement is applied in the life of those who receive the Spirit, Holy of God, providing strength and power for one to live a Godly life.

not that our conscious simply being cleared is the source of strength and faith but that the Atonement and Pardon for sin is genuine and real and in the Spirit of Holy is we are in God and he in us

brightfame52 · Dec 2, 2023

Christ's Death effects our Repentance towards God !

Jer 31:18-19

18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.

19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

Repentance is the fruit of being turned by Christ, It is God Our Saviour through the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus Christ, that men are given repentance Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Note: Repentance of this nature must be given, we have it not in us by nature !

Now in fact, its an accomplishment of His death for us, and heres why !

The prophets stated "Surely after that I was turned, I repented"

In other words, his act of repenting was effected by him being first acted upon ! He was first turned, and AFTER that he repented !

The word turned in Jer 31:19 is shub: to turn back, return, so in this case it means to be returned or to be turned back, it means to bring back, it means to convert !

The word also corresponds with the NT word returned here in 1 Pet 2:25

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

here its the greek word epistrepho which means, to cause to return, to bring back unto the Love and Obedience of God, and its in the passive voice, which denotes that they are being returned, acted upon, and this is effected by what transpired in Vs 24 1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Its the results of the healing that His stripes/death brings, a conversion to God !

And its this being returned that brings forth or causes our repentance, as the Prophet said, AFTER i was turned, I repented ! 43

brightfame52 · Dec 2, 2023

seemlesanctity said:

I have dedicated this thread to showing exactly what What Christs atoning death accomplished and effected.

seemlesanctity · Dec 3, 2023

then why attempt to lay claim thus - """ your Roman Catholic Trinitarian Jesus "" was given authority

and also lay claim to the Trinitarian Demand that Trinitarian Jesus already existed CO Eternal - and CO Equal with this authority

?? are you truly a Trinitarian ? ? ? ?

or a Trinitarian Protestant atempting to correct Muslim and Catholic error

Tish · Dec 3, 2023

brightfame52 said:

Rom 5:11

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

The Atonement of Christ has reconciled the elect world to God. It secured and ensured for it [ the elect world] every spiritual blessing needed to live unto God and for His Glory through Jesus christ.

Even before the elect are born into this world as sinners, they have already [by the blood of Christ] been reconciled to God, it will now be a matter of time for it to be manifested.

The atonement accomplished the complete salvation for all whom it was offered for, that is the death of christ. It provides them Faith, repentance, sanctification, redemption, and every needful spiritual blessing to convert them to God, and remain secured forever.

reneweddaybyday · Dec 3, 2023

brightfame52 said:

"those He died for" ... what is stated in Scripture:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

brightfame52 said:

nope ... Romans 6 is the beginning of the walk of the newly born again believer ... those who have been justified by faith (Rom 5:1).

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The born again believer walks in newness of life because he or she has been set free from the bondage of sin.

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

We have been set free from sin in order that we may serve God in righteousness:

Romans 6:12-13 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Read the whole chapter, brightfame52. Romans 6 exposes as error your statement that no one has to believe or that anyone can "continue being ungodly sinners" ...

brightfame52 said:

If born again believers "continue being ungodly sinners", they remain in bondage to sin ... they do not walk in the newness of life as shown in Romans 6:4 ... they do not yield themselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and [their] members as instruments of righteousness unto God as shown in Romans 6:13 ...

brightfame52 said:

Read a little further in 1 Peter 1 to see who the "us" refers to:

1 Peter 1:

8 Whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

The Lord Jesus Christ died to take away the sins of the whole world as shown above. Those who reject this truth will continue to be slaves to sin (Romans 6) ... they will not be born again (1 Peter 1).

The whosoever believeth (John 3:16) will be born again ... and should walk in newness of life (Romans 6) ... and rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of [their] faith, even the salvation of [their] souls (1 Peter 1).
.

Tish · Dec 3, 2023

So I have a question … does the word ‘atonement’ have the same meaning in the New Testament as it does in the Old Testament?
I always thought atonement meant to cover, which didn’t completely remove sin it only covered when God accepted the sacrifice of the High Priest for the people and they were covered until the next Yom Kippor.
Hebrews chapters 9-10 mentions the word ‘remission’ in talking about sin. Remission means actually doing away with sin, doesn’t it? We don’t receive atonement in the once for all sacrifice of Jesus , we received remission, forgiveness, cleansing. So does atonement mean the same in both testaments because I see it’s mentioned in Romans? Can some address this please?

reneweddaybyday · Dec 3, 2023

brightfame52 said:

... nope ... here is what God's Word tells us about the born again ones "before they become believers":

God tells us we were children of disobedience ... children of wrath

Ephesians 2:2-3 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

God tells us we were alienated and enemies:

Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

now reconciled ... not reconciled in eternity past ... reconciled at the time he or she believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.

brightfame52 said:

... more straw man fallacy from brightfame52 ... no one who has posted in this thread believes "their believing ... Loosed them from their sins" ... all who have posted in this thread believe God is the One Who "loosed them from their sins" ...

The straw-man fallacy is when a person misrepresents his opponent's position and then proceeds to refute that misrepresentation (i.e., the "straw man") rather than what his opponent actually claims.

brightfame52 said:

...

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I [the Lord Jesus Christ] say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

if someone hears and does not believe, they are condemned. Period.

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

reneweddaybyday · Dec 3, 2023

brightfame52 said:

Please note ... in Scripture, the term Ephraim sometimes refers to the 10 tribes of Israel and not just Ephraim, the son of Joseph. Also in Scripture, the term Judah sometimes refers to the 2 southern tribes and not just Judah, the son of Jacob/Israel. You have to be aware of the context ... which you, brightfame52, habitually ignore.

From Benson Commentary:

Ephraim, representing the ten tribes, is brought forward, lamenting his past undutifulness with great contrition and penitence, and professing an earnest desire of amendment. ... The passage is intended to show the change necessary to be wrought in the hearts of the Israelites, in order to their obtaining this restoration from captivity, according to the conditional promises made of old to this people. ... Sometimes the Scripture ascribes the whole work of man’s conversion to God, because his grace is the first and principal cause of it. But yet, to make it effectual, man’s concurrence is necessary, as appears particularly from Jeremiah 51:9, where God says, We would have healed Babylon, and she is not healed; that is, God did what was requisite on his part for her conversion, but she refused to comply with his call.

brightfame52 said:

The words "for to give" in Acts 5:31 and the word "granted" in Acts 11:18 are translated from the Greek word didómi.

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

the noun denotes something to be done by him to whom it is said to be given: διδόναι τίνι μετάνοιαν, to cause him to repent, Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18; γνῶσιν σωτηρίας, Luke 1:77; ἐλπίδα τίνι, 2 Thessalonians 2:16.

In the case of Acts 5:31, Peter and the other apostles (Acts 5:29) were speaking to the council and the high priest (Acts 5:27). Peter declared:

Acts 5:

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Peter declared that he and the apostles were witnesses to the high priest and the council having slain the Lord Jesus Christ ... and the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead ... and that the Lord Jesus Christ has been exalted by God to be Prince and Savior to give repentance to Israel (and there must be something done by Israel) ... and verse 32 tells us what that "something" is: they must obey God.

The response of the chief priest and the council is shown in Acts 5:33:

When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

In other words, they did not obey God but sought to slay Peter and the other apostles.

The guidance of Gamaliel stopped them from killing Peter and the other apostles (although the council beat them and commanded them to refrain from speaking in the name of Jesus - Acts 5:40).

In the case of Acts 11:18, Peter spoke to the apostles and brethren and reiterated what occurred when Peter went to the house of Cornelius (a gentile).

In the case of Cornelius and his household, they believed the word spoken by Peter and they were born again.

So, as shown in the two records you presented (Acts 5:31 and Acts 11:18), the people in Acts 5 did not repent and in Acts 11:18, the people did repent.

Because you refuse to read verses within the context in which the Author of Scripture has placed them, you have shown you do not comprehend what is written in Scripture.

brightfame52 said:

Let's look at Jeremiah 31:19 in translations other than KJV to see what is truly meant by "AFTER I was turned, I repented !" ...

New International Version:

After I strayed, I repented

New Living Translation:

I turned away from God, but then I was sorry.

English Standard Version:

For after I had turned away, I relented

Amplified Bible:

‘After I turned away [from You], I repented;

International Standard Version:

Indeed, after I turned away, then I repented.

New American Bible:

For after I turned away, I repented

NET Bible:

For after we turned away from you we repented.

In other words, according to the above versions, after turning away from God, they repented.

The verse does not state what you insist in your futile attempt to align Scripture with your erroneous dogma.

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

reneweddaybyday · Dec 3, 2023

brightfame52 said:

if the above was true, you would not have included these statements in the first post submitted in this thread:

click

brightfame52 said:

click

brightfame52 said:

click
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The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

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