The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[brightfame52]

Redeemed from Death !

Hos 13:14

14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

This Promise of redemption is premised upon the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

The Blood of the Covenant Zech 9:11

As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

Which is the same as here Matt 26:28

For this is my blood of the new testament/covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Now understand, this Redemption in Christ's blood delivers His People, the Many Matt 26:28 from all the penal evils of sin and death!

Now one of these penal evils for their sins is that of spiritual death, and that's why as a consequence of His Death for them, all for whom He died, His entire Body, Church that He gave Himself for Eph 5:25 must be made alive out of spiritual death of trespasses and sins, as indicated and stated in Eph 2:4-6

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This being made alive with Christ while dead in sins, is the consequence and faithfulness to God's Promise Hos 13:14

14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

You see death in all of its varieties is an enemy 1 Cor 15:26

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Now this verse in its context is speaking of physical death, for it at present is an enemy that serves a good purpose for the Saints Ps 116:15 , it has no evil in it for them,

However spiritual death is also an enemy, it prevents them that are greatly Loved by God from serving Him, so Christ's redeeming death provided effective provision to deliver, rescue them from the powers of spiritual death, so that they can worship/serve Him in Spirit and Truth, so we read in Lk 1:74-75

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies [spiritual death] might serve him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Folks Christ's death would be proved ineffective to redeem if it did not effect deliverance from spiritual death of all those Christ died for ! 40

 

[reneweddaybyday]

1 Cor 15:26

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Now this verse in its context is speaking of physical death, for it at present is an enemy that serves a good purpose for the Saints Ps 116:15

... "this verse in its context" ... 99 pages into this thread and we have yet to see you submit any verse from Scripture in its context (and that goes for all of the threads you have started and/or in which you participated at this site).

We also know why you refuse to submit Scripture in context ... because the context would expose your dogma as erroneous.

In Post 1961 alone you jumped from Hosea 13:14 to Ephesians 1:7 ... then to Zechariah 9:11 ... then to Matthew 26:28 ... then to Ephesians 5:25 ... then to Ephesians 2:4-6 ... then back to Hosea 13:14 ... then to 1 Corinthians 15:26 ... then to Luke 1:74-75.

Here's some information about context and why it is so important that we read verses within the context the Author of Scripture has placed them:

The Bible is the Word of God, literally "God-breathed" (2 Timothy 3:16), and we are commanded to read, study, and understand it through the use of good Bible study methods and always with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to guide us (1 Corinthians 2:14). Our study is greatly enhanced by maintaining diligence in the use of context because it is quite easy to come to wrong conclusions by taking phrases and verses out of context. It is not difficult to point out places that seemingly contradict other portions of Scripture, but if we carefully look at their context and use the entirety of Scripture as a reference, we can understand the meaning of a passage. “Context is king” means that the context often drives the meaning of a phrase. To ignore context is to put ourselves at a tremendous disadvantage.​

https://www.gotquestions.org/context-Bible.html​

However, because you ignore context, the content of your erroneous dogma is filled with your eisegesis.

Exegesis and eisegesis are two conflicting approaches in Bible study. Exegesis is the exposition or explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.​

​

The opposite approach to Scripture is eisegesis, which is the interpretation of a passage based on a subjective, non-analytical reading. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.​

​

Obviously, only exegesis does justice to the text. Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.​

https://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html​

​

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
.

 

[brightfame52]

Made Righteous in Him !

2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Christ was made sin for us, which equates to His dying because our sins were laid to His Charge, Hence He died for our sins 1 Cor 15:3 !

This scripture 2 Cor 5:21 more so than any other, proves that those Christ died for, was made sin for, that they are in Him, and in Him made Righteous ! He could not have died for us if there was not first a Legal Union so that He could be justly charged with our sins before God's Law and Justice !

Now this being made the Righteousness of God in Him because of His Death, is accorded with Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The word made here is the greek word kathistémi:

I set down, bring down to a place; I set in order, appoint, make, constitute.

"to set down as, constitute (Latinsisto), equivalent to to declare, show to be

Now here's how it goes, because of one mans disobedience, that being Adam, many were made, constituted, shown to be sinners !

The correlative is Because of one Mans obedience, that being Christ, many shall be made, constituted, shown to be Righteous !

Yet the order is important, first the many are made or shown to be sinners, by Natural Birth, then later those sinners are made , shown to be Righteous by Spiritual Birth, that's why it reads they shall be made Righteous, because their natural being comes first, then their Spiritual being comes afterwards, they first must bear the image of the natural, before bearing the image of the Spiritual, a principal stated here 1 Cor 15:49

And as we have borne the image of the earthy[Adam as sinners], we shall also bear the image of the heavenly[Christ the Righteous].

So all them Christ died for, are made to be , shown to be, and declared to be Righteous by Christ's Righteousness imputed to them. The fact is, His dying for them, and His Righteousness charged to them, are corresponding blessings, one cannot be true without the other.

This would mean that everyone Christ has died for is in Christ, because He having been made sin for them [denoting His death for them] they are made the Righteousness of God [by Imputation] in Him, so they are even in Him as unrepentant, unbelieving enemies, they are still in Him made Righteous ! This is a Gospel Truth that the perishing lost religious world does not believe ! 40

 

[brightfame52]

It Promises Spiritual Life !

Those Christ died for, He promised them Spiritual Life ! This is a Spiritual Truth that those not born again cannot receive ; However When Christ made this statement Jn 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The big if here that needs to be done in order for the drawing of all to take place is He being lifted up, referring to His Death on the Tree Jn 3:14

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

And out of this Lifting up His Promise is that He will or shall draw all for whom He was Lifted up for unto Himself, and the drawing here is Spiritual Life.

The word for draw, helko has a metaphorically definition :

to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Now in addition to the inward power being the Life of the Holy Spirit according to the Faith of Promise Ezk 36:27

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

And the Spirit is Life because of Righteousness Rom 8:10

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

The Spirit gives Life to all whom Christ died and made Righteous Rom 5:19, because Christ's Righteousness has been Imputed, Life is given in recognition of it !

Prov 12:28

In the way of righteousness is life: and in the pathway thereof there is no death.

Christ's Righteousness Imputed is the way of Life ! 40

 

[reneweddaybyday]

those Christ died for

... what is stated in Scripture:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

that those Christ died for, was made sin for, that they are in Him, and in Him made Righteous !

the only ones who are "in Him" and "in Him made Righteous !" are the ones who have righteousness imputed to them ... and Scripture tells us when righteousness is imputed:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God]was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

so they are even in Him as unrepentant, unbelieving enemies

... no one is in the Lord Jesus Chris as an unrepentant, unbelieving enemy.

Those who are in the Lord Jesus Christ have turned to Him because they heard the gospel and believed in Him.

This is a Gospel Truth

... nope ... your ignorance of the truth of the gospel is astounding.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Those Christ died for

... what is stated in Scripture:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This is a Spiritual Truth that those not born again cannot receive

Your use of a double negative renders your statement meaningless.

Jn 3:14

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up

let's just look at John 3:14 in the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed it:

John 3:

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him [the Lord Jesus Christ], How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


vs 14 refers to Numbers 21 ... when the children of Israel had sinned against God and in judgment God sent fiery serpents. When the people repented, they asked Moses to pray to God to forgive them their sins, God told Moses to make a serpent, set it upon a pole and if a serpent bites someone, they will live if they look on the serpent on the pole:

Numbers 21:

5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.

6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.


The point in Numbers 21 is that if anyone who was bitten would look at the serpent of brass lifted up on the pole, he would live. If anyone was bitten and did not look at the serpent on the pole, he would die. The serpent on the pole was available for all ... only those who beheld the serpent would live.

The point in John 3 is that if anyone believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, He shall live. The Lord Jesus Christ was lifted up and is available for all ... only those who believe in Him shall have eternal life.

Rom 8:10

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

The Spirit gives Life to all whom Christ died

wrong ... the "Spirit gives Life to all" who believe.

The Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam ... only those who believe have Christ within.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

 

[brightfame52]

It Promises Spiritual Life ! 2

Jn 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

More now on the word draw helko :

II.metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

We are establishing why to draw equates to Spiritual Life, and why Jn 12:32 is in fact a Promise Christ makes in giving Life as a result of His being lifted up, meaning His Death, for all whom He was lifted up in behalf of !

As a result of His Death for the many, that many shall be made Righteous Rom 5:19 and that's imputed Righteousness, and where there is Righteousness, The Spirit for Christ's Sake gives Life Ezk 36:27

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

That gives the inward power. Now the word impel denotes motion which denotes movement, which denotes action and or lively activity which of course denotes Life !

This is the Life He promised the World of His Sheep Jn 6:33

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Thats the result of His coming down, was to give Life unto the World, Spiritual Life !

Also to the same purpose we have Jn 10:10

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they[The Sheep World] might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

This life which is by the Spirit because of Righteousness, because of His Obedience unto death, is the drawing power and impelling spoken of by Jesus in Jn 12:32, promised if He be Lifted up from the earth, which He was !

The drawing to Christ is into a life of intimate fellowship with Christ, as His Bride says in Canticles 1:4

Draw me, we will run after thee: the king hath brought me into his chambers: we will be glad and rejoice in thee, we will remember thy love more than wine: the upright love thee.

The drawing produces Spiritual activity, the running after Christ !

This espousal drawing and running to Christ is the result of having Spiritual Life. That drawing is that Life in action that He came to give His Sheep Jn 10:10;6:33 and it comes as promised as a result/effect of having been lifted up from the earth, signifying His Death on the Cross !

If any for whom Christ died do not receive Life to come to Christ into His Fellowship 1 Cor 1:9 then Jn 12:32 and Jesus promise there is a Lie !

 

[brightfame52]

It Promises Spiritual Life and faith persuasion ! 3

Jesus said as an consequence of being Lifted up [His Death upon the Tree/Cross] Jn 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Now in the original the word men is not there, so it reads basically :

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me.

Now whoever the all are, they will be drawn to Christ ! We do know for sure, the all are of those He was Lifted up on the Cross in behalf of !

Now I believe the all are the Sheep or His Sheep and here's why. Jesus basically says the same thing here in Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them[Other Sheep] also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Notice, the Other Sheep He must bring ! The word bring here is key to our understanding and how it relates to Jn 12:32, its the word , a verb
agō:

II.to lead,

A.to lead, guide, direct


B.to lead through, conduct to: to something


C.to move, impel: of forces and influences on the mind

And the word draw in Jn 12:32 is the greek verb helkō:

II.metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

They are basically the same definition, To lead and or to impel. The impelling is by inward power that has a persuasive influence on the mind !

The word helko also means :

I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe.

And may I add that the idea of Faith is to persuade ! The common greek word for Faith is pistis:

which is from peithô which means:

persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust

And so that's what the drawing in Jn 12:32 entails as a result of Christ being Lifted up. They all for whom He was lifted up in behalf shall be persuaded into Faith/ Trust !

How will He persuade them into Trust ? By the Power of the Gospel Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

In the original the word Trust is not there, it was added by the Translators, but the verb pisteuó/believed is which means:

I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

to think to be true; to be persuaded of; to credit, place confidence in;

So Jn 12:32 is a standing Testimony from the Mouth of Christ Himself stating that all for whom He died shall come to Faith in Him, for as it is written, The Just shall Live by Faith ! Everyone Christ died for shall be made Just/ Righteous Rom 5:19 ! 40

 

[brightfame52]

Ransomed out of unbelief !2

One of the most subtle falsehoods today that takes away credit from the death of Christ and its effects for all for whom He died, is that even though He died in their stead, they are under condemnation for their unbelief Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

False teachers say this means that even those for whom Christ died are already condemned because of unbelief !

The problem however is that those Christ died for are actually the Vessels of Mercy, and God has purposed to show them Mercy because of their unbelief Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

You see that, Unbelief is the cause of God having Mercy upon them and not the cause of God condemning them.

This has been Illustrated by the Apostle who obtained Mercy [as a Vessel of Mercy] because of the evil he did in unbelief 1 Tim 1:13-14

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

You see that in Vs 13 ? Unbelief was the occasion for God having Mercy upon him not condemning him !

This was because Christ had gave Himself for Paul as he stated here Gal 2:20

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

When we are Loved by the Son of God, and He gave Himself for us, we obtain mercy for our unbelief and ignorance, not condemnation !

For one whom Christ died to die in their sins in unbelief Jn 8:24 is a contradiction to the saving mercy and purposes of God in Christ !

Finally, those in Jn 3:18 who are in unbelief and already condemned, they are not condemned because of their unbelief, but because of their sins charged upon them, and not having Christ as their Surety, and so unbelief to them is a consequential evidence of remaining under the condemnation of the Law for their sins against it, because, believing not meant they were not of God's Sheep Jn 10:26 for whom Christ died Jn 10:11,15 ! 41

 

[seemlesanctity]

I am hesitant to say that babies are sinners, or a baby commits sin or that a baby is even guilty of sin, I do not believe that atonement could apply to a baby. - as a baby being baptized.

I believe that a baby can be dedicated through prayer and prayer can be prayed that the baby will have strength and knowledge in the Lord when it is old enough to have understanding knowledge.

some would differ as we see in the Roman Catholicism and for also the Church of England and even Lutherans who teach that a baby needs to be Baptized to free the baby from Original Sin.

Roman Catholicism teaches that Infants need to be baptized to be FREE - freed from Original Sin.

but what is Original Sin - ? ? ?

Rom 5:12 by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

:14 Nevertheless "DEATH " reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,
​

even today there are many millions of people who teach in infant baptism such as Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Church of the Nazarene, Reformed Church in America, Episcopalians, United Church of Christ, Presbyterians, Continental Reformed.

not all of these organizations agree upon the exact reasoning as to why the baby needs baptism but infant baptism began originally in the Roman Church as a popular, mainstream, long lasting tradition.

I do not believe that Scripturas teach that anyone can be FREE from Original Sin, nor that they can avoid the consequences of Original Sin.

as it is taught and explained in the scripturas

 

[brightfame52]

I am hesitant to say that babies are sinners, or a baby commits sin or that a baby is even guilty of sin, I do not believe that atonement could apply to a baby. - as a baby being baptized.

I believe that a baby can be dedicated through prayer and prayer can be prayed that the baby will have strength and knowledge in the Lord when it is old enough to have understanding knowledge.

some would differ as we see in the Roman Catholicism and for also the Church of England and even Lutherans who teach that a baby needs to be Baptized to free the baby from Original Sin.

Roman Catholicism teaches that Infants need to be baptized to be FREE - freed from Original Sin.

but what is Original Sin - ? ? ?

Rom 5:12 by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

:14 Nevertheless "DEATH " reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,
​

even today there are many millions of people who teach in infant baptism such as Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Church of the Nazarene, Reformed Church in America, Episcopalians, United Church of Christ, Presbyterians, Continental Reformed.

not all of these organizations agree upon the exact reasoning as to why the baby needs baptism but infant baptism began originally in the Roman Church as a popular, mainstream, long lasting tradition.

I do not believe that Scripturas teach that anyone can be FREE from Original Sin, nor that they can avoid the consequences of Original Sin.

as it is taught and explained in the scripturas

Post 1969 did you read it and understand it ?

 

[seemlesanctity]

Yes, completely, and you explained this so perfectly

and I did understand exactly what the " brightfame52 " had written and I fully agree.

so true, those whom Jesus Christ died for are " themselves " they, are the very Vessels of Mercy, God is giving them Mercy in their unbelief - For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Unbelief is a very part or the very plan to have Mercy upon them and in their unbelief God has made them himself as Vessels of Mercy
- God is not condemning them.

thank you for taking time to explain this, it has been a long time since I have focused upon this particular passage.
God has made his plan of salvation so simple.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

for all whom He was lifted up in behalf of !

... what is stated in Scripture:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

to draw equates to Spiritual Life

not according to what is written in the context, brightfame52:

John 12:

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.


The Lord Jesus Christ spoke the words in John 12:32 signifying what death He should die ... iow, Jesus told them He would die by crucifixion (which was a horrible way to die ... and God tells us cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree - Gal 3:13).


now, continue reading ...

John 12:

35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him


to this day, God has chosen the Lord Jesus Christ as the Light in which we are to walk [Greek peripatéō - to behave, conduct one's life] ... mankind is to look to Him and the crucifixion draws mankind to consider Him ... God has chosen those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as those who will receive "Spiritual Life". Those who "believe not on Him" even though He had done so many miracles will reap the consequence of their unbelief.

The drawing produces Spiritual activity

nope ... as indicated in the context, those who believe in the light are the ones who become children of light:

John 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

then Jn 12:32 and Jesus promise there is a Lie !

of all who have posted in this thread, you are the only one who believes that any promise of God "is a Lie !"


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

whoever the all are, they will be drawn to Christ !

again, brightfame52 ... read the verses following verse 32:

John 12:

35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him


All who were in Jerusalem at the time of the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ were drawn to that event.

They either believed on Him ... or they did not believe on Him ... despite the fact that He had done so many miracles before them.

I believe the all are the Sheep or His Sheep and here's why. Jesus basically says the same thing here in Jn 10:16

John 10:16 and John 12:32 do not "basically say the same thing".

Quit ripping verses from the context in which the Author of Scripture has placed them. Read verses within the context.

Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

In the original the word Trust is not there, it was added by the Translators

The word "Trust" is in verse 12:

Ephesians 1:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

note the sequence, brightfame52:

you trusted after you heard

after you heard, you believed

after you believed, you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (regenerated, born again)

Jn 12:32 is a standing Testimony from the Mouth of Christ Himself stating that all for whom He died shall come to Faith in Him, for as it is written, The Just shall Live by Faith ! Everyone Christ died for shall be made Just/ Righteous

The Lord Jesus Christ did not state that "all for whom He died shall come to Faith in Him".

Scripture clearly states that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam ... and of those descendants of Adam, the ones who believe ... those who do not reject God ... those are the ones who "shall be made Just/ Righteous":

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


To ignore context enables the manipulation of the text and that is not proper interpretation of Scripture.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This verse is absolutely true.

The problem however is that those Christ died for are actually the Vessels of Mercy, and God has purposed to show them Mercy because of their unbelief Rom 11:32

Romans 11:32 does not mention "Vessels of Mercy":

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


You continuously rip verses from context and then you conflate what is written in one section of Scripture with what is written in another section of Scripture and you end up not understanding what is written in any section of Scripture.

Romans 11:

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!


the whole point is to bring our attention to the magnitude of the riches of God's wisdom and knowledge. God's judgments are unsearchable (we will never be able to search out God's wisdom and knowledge in His judgments) ... God's ways are past finding out (we will never find out the end of God's ways). No matter how long we live and how much we study Scripture. Even in new heaven / new earth ... when we have life everlasting ... we will never comprehend all of Who God is ... His mercies are beyond all we could ever know and understand.

You see that, Unbelief is the cause of God having Mercy upon them and not the cause of God condemning them.

... not according to these verses:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Mark 16:15-16 And he [the Lord Jesus Christ] said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Romans 2:5-8 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath

2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This has been Illustrated by the Apostle who obtained Mercy [as a Vessel of Mercy] because of the evil he did in unbelief 1 Tim 1:13-14

... just more of your context-ignoring blathering.

the term "vessels of mercy" occurs one time in Scripture and that is in Romans 9:23:

Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

and, again, reading in context, we see these verses:

Romans 9:30-33 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


The vessels of mercy are the whosoever believeth on Him.

Quit manipulating Scripture ... just read what is written and believe what the Author has written.

You see that in Vs 13 ? Unbelief was the occasion for God having Mercy upon him not condemning him !

... nope ... Paul's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ "was the occasion for God having Mercy upon him and not condemning him !" for what Paul did prior to his coming to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

those in Jn 3:18 who are in unbelief and already condemned, they are not condemned because of their unbelief

this statement completely contradicts what is written in Scripture:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Those who do not believe are judged because they do not believe. Period.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

 

[seemlesanctity]

I just was thinking about Adam's curse of death, was a curse that he would die by natural causes - within his BODY

not a death that was caused by SPIRITUAL CAUSES - The curse of his sin caused a breakdown his body the immunity, DNA of his body - Genetic Genome - CELL PRODUCTION

Life Expectancy Is Written in Our DNA

https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/is-life-expectancy-written-in-our-dna


The fundamental factors that killed Adam, the reasons Adams body no longer functioned and the cause of his death is a result of how the cells in the body are dying.

Some cells in your body are replaced every 7 to 10 years - they die and need to be replaced by new cells
Neutrophil cells (a type of white blood cell) might only last 2 days - they die and need to be replaced by new cells
Egg cells: last 50 years - then begin to decay, rot and the cells begin to lose life slowly
Heart muscle cells: last 40 years - then begin to decay, rot and the cells begin to lose life slowly
the entire body begins to decay and corrupt and die - the same with
Intestinal cells last 15.9 years-
Skeletal muscle cells: last 15.1 years-
Fat cells: last 8 years
Hematopoietic stem cells: 5 years-
Liver cells: 10-16 months-
Pancreas cells: 1 year-

the entire body stops producing new cells to replace the dying cells causing the human body to die

Stiffening of the blood vessels and arteries, bones begin to shrink in size and density, fracturing and breaking down. Structural changes in the large intestine due to the cells of the body that are not reproducing fast enough to replace the dead cells

The eye's lens begins to become cloudy, The hearing diminishes, no longer able to hear
the gums begin to pull back from your teeth that are decaying and become infection - begening to rot and decay
the skin thins and becomes less elastic and more fragile and wrinkled and frayed
the body no longer burns or uses calories fast enough to provide energy for the body

THE BODY OF ADAM DID NOT BEGIN TO DIE BECAUSE OF THE SPIRITUAL CONDITION OF HIS SPIRIT - this is what caused the body to die because of his disobedience he committed - but what was the reason his physical body died

the body of Adam dies because his body itself began to decay, rot and had become corrupted by the fruit that was forbidden.

Adam no longer has access to eat from the GARDEN - God. changed his diet and drove him out of the garden,

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast eaten of the tree, - cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
:18 and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground;


the sin of 'Âdâm and his wife Chavvâh brought death to the human race.

This death was a result of the eating of the forbidden fruit of corruption and death that corrupted their bodies

The Scriptures make it clear that - even over them that had not sinned

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from 'Âdâm - , even over them that had not sinned

EVEN - If I personally have never committed a sin - i have inherited the curse of sin in my body and I will die just as Adam

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned - , by one; { 'Âdâm }

DO THE SCRIPTURES SAY THAT SIN AND SPIRITUAL IMMORALITY OR LUST AND DEPRAVITY AND DISOBIDENCE IS INHERITED FROM THE SIN OF ADAM


Adams spirit is not here on earth causing people to commit sin - nor do scriptures teach that the DISOBIDENT spirit of the father and mother is passing down curses of sin and disobedience and depravation upon their children

this is what i am saying

what Adam did does not lead his children to also be prone and dispositioned to commit sin, NOR tendency and attraction to be drawn into sin because of the sin of Adam.

Eph 4:17 walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the VANITY Of THER MIND , - having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

the alienation from God and tendency to commit sin - is NOT a result of something that is passed down through - from Adams mistakes

also

Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

each man and woman are responsible for their own sin they commit based on their ignorance, walking - in the VANITY OF THIER. MIND - their understanding is darkened, their heart is darkened, alienated and enemies in their mind - by wicked works - - alienated from the life of God

I just do not see that the spirit of Adam has spiritually passed down a spiritual stain and spiritual contamination upon future SPIRITS of his seed that causes disobedience and rebellion and leads astray the spirit of his children

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Adam and Eve had never eaten from the fruit nor were they conceived by DNA. / GENETIC sexual conception

the spirit of Adam is not transferring and passing down spiritual information to lead one into temptation and rebellion.

there is the spirit and the body

the spirit of Adam and Eve - they inherited nothing from God himself nor from earthly parents and still they made the free choice to disobey

Adam and Eve were - walking - in the VANITY OF THIER MIND , - Adam and Eve were darkened in their understanding and their hearts were darkened, Adam and Eve became alienated and enemies of God in their mind - by a wicked work / action - - alienating themselves from the life of God

this was not caused by having this SIN NATURE passed down from God, nor passed down by their parents - however,

death in the body and the curse of Original Sin - this is physically passed down from Adam to all his seed and all will be subject to this judgment no matter what,

I understand this to be free will - not a spiritual condition inherited from Adam that was also passed down from him by God

would this not make God himself the one who had passed down the - ORIGINAL SIN - passing down by a spirituality

 

[reneweddaybyday]

would this not make God himself the one who had passed down the - ORIGINAL SIN

no.

Scripture plainly tells us ...

Genesis 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Adam and Eve were created in the image of God ... after His likeness ...


Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth

Descendants of Adam and Eve were begotten in the image and likeness of Adam and Eve. Each successive generation is begotten after the image and likeness of father and mother. You were begotten after the image and likeness of your father and mother ... I was begotten after the image and likeness of my father and mother. My children were begotten after the image and likeness of my husband and myself.


Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

the words "thou shalt surely die" are translated from the Hebrew words mō-wṯ tā-mūṯ., both variations of the same word mûṯ (Strong's H4191). the verse states that if Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, "dying you shall die".


Scripture tells us Eve was deceived by satan ... the father of lies ... in her transgression against God ... and that Adam was not deceived in his transgression against God.

Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


James 1:

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
.

 

[brightfame52]

Because I live, ye shall live also !

Jn 14:19

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Jesus here is speaking to and of His Sheep, and He makes this Promise to them "because I live, ye shall live also" !

He can say this because He is their Legal Head in Union with them, He is speaking as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep, who by His Blood Shed, He will establish Life and Peace for the Sheep, by the Blood of the Everlasting Covenant Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

BTW , If He is brought from the Dead as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep, He died as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep, and He did not die for us if we were not of His Sheep, neither shall we believe in Him for that same reason Jn 10:26 !

Since by this He was brought again from the dead, therefore He Lives and that forever more Rev 1:18

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

And because He now Lives as their Head and Shepherd, all the Sheep shall live also, and that's Jesus promise in our text Jn 14:19 !

They shall live also because unto them He has been made a Life-giving Spirit 1 Cor 15:45, and so if everyone He rose as their Great Shepherd from the dead for Heb 13:20, doesn't be made to Live also, then Christ's words in Jn 14:19 are a lie, a cheat, He is a false witness, which i hope none who call themselves believers would ever admit to. And since all men without exception shall live and see Life Jn 3:36, they were not of His Sheep that He died for, to whom the promise of Jn 14:19 was made ! 41

 

[brightfame52]

... what is stated in Scripture:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.





not according to what is written in the context, brightfame52:

John 12:

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.


The Lord Jesus Christ spoke the words in John 12:32 signifying what death He should die ... iow, Jesus told them He would die by crucifixion (which was a horrible way to die ... and God tells us cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree - Gal 3:13).


now, continue reading ...

John 12:

35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him


to this day, God has chosen the Lord Jesus Christ as the Light in which we are to walk [Greek peripatéō - to behave, conduct one's life] ... mankind is to look to Him and the crucifixion draws mankind to consider Him ... God has chosen those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as those who will receive "Spiritual Life". Those who "believe not on Him" even though He had done so many miracles will reap the consequence of their unbelief.





nope ... as indicated in the context, those who believe in the light are the ones who become children of light:

John 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.





of all who have posted in this thread, you are the only one who believes that any promise of God "is a Lie !"


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

The drawing is life and the mighty working of Gods power

 

[brightfame52]

again, brightfame52 ... read the verses following verse 32:

John 12:

35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him


All who were in Jerusalem at the time of the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ were drawn to that event.

They either believed on Him ... or they did not believe on Him ... despite the fact that He had done so many miracles before them.





John 10:16 and John 12:32 do not "basically say the same thing".

Quit ripping verses from the context in which the Author of Scripture has placed them. Read verses within the context.





The word "Trust" is in verse 12:

Ephesians 1:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

note the sequence, brightfame52:

you trusted after you heard

after you heard, you believed

after you believed, you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (regenerated, born again)





The Lord Jesus Christ did not state that "all for whom He died shall come to Faith in Him".

Scripture clearly states that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam ... and of those descendants of Adam, the ones who believe ... those who do not reject God ... those are the ones who "shall be made Just/ Righteous":

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


To ignore context enables the manipulation of the text and that is not proper interpretation of Scripture.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
.

Again, the all of Jn 12:32 will be given life, drawn by the mighty power of God to conversion.