Israel Declares War

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PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Isn't Martin Luther one of the men responsible for why we are not all Catholics today?
He absolutely is responsible. And he has gotten immense accolades for this heroic feat for centuries.
So much so, very few people even know what an incredibly virulent Jew hater he was.

Did what he write really encourage the killing of Jews,
Despots and dictators alike didn't need any encouragement to hate, persecute, and kill Jews. But what they DID need was Luther's writings, which they felt gave them license to kill Jews by silencing the Amil Church in Europe. Particularly in Nazi Germany. I can pull up stuff about that if you like.

Luther's 7 remedial actions were Satanic.
Is that the title given to the satanic things he said should be done to the Jews? I really didn't know it was called that.

But if it is, it is unquestionably satanic. As is hatred of the Jews. They remain a primary target of the devil.
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
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Despots and dictators alike didn't need any encouragement to hate, persecute, and kill Jews. But what they DID need was Luther's writings, which they felt gave them license to kill Jews by silencing the Amil Church in Europe. Particularly in Nazi Germany. I can pull up stuff about that if you like.
I'd be interested, as you haven't convinced me yet.

Is that the title given to the satanic things he said should be done to the Jews? I really didn't know it was called that.

But if it is, it is unquestionably satanic. As is hatred of the Jews. They remain a primary target of the devil.
No, I was just quoting from one of your earlier posts.

To me, Satanic would require either worship of the devil, murder or mutilation of human beings (made in God's image), or else denial of the gospel message to people or a false gospel (so that they should perish in Hell). Luther advocated for none of that, save for making the life of a (religious) Jew who wanted to enjoy the benefits of Christian society very difficult - which is fair - if Judaism is such a beneficial religion, why should its adherents seek out societies made prosperous by other religions?

I actually think a lot of what he advocated for in the 7 items were reasonable (many more people would be in favour of these if they were proposed as a solution to the problem of Islam, or other false religions).
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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I'd be interested, as you haven't convinced me yet.
I mean you can easily find tons of stuff on the subject. This, after just a second of seaching:
Influence on modern antisemitism[edit]
The prevailing view[33] among historians is that Luther's anti-Jewish rhetoric contributed significantly to the development of antisemitism in Germany,[34] and in the 1930s and 1940s provided an ideal foundation for the Nazi Party's attacks on Jews.[35] Reinhold Lewin writes that "whoever wrote against the Jews for whatever reason believed he had the right to justify himself by triumphantly referring to Luther." According to Michael, just about every anti-Jewish book printed in the Third Reich contained references to and quotations from Luther. Diarmaid MacCulloch argues that Luther's 1543 pamphlet On the Jews and Their Lies was a "blueprint" for the Kristallnacht.[36] Shortly after the Kristallnacht, Martin Sasse, Bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Thuringia, published a compendium of Luther's writings; Sasse "applauded the burning of the synagogues" and the coincidence of the day, writing in the introduction, "On November 10, 1938, on Luther's birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany." The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words "of the greatest anti-Semite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews."[37]

Christopher J. Probst, in his book Demonizing the Jews: Luther and the Protestant Church in Nazi Germany (2012), shows that a large number of German Protestant clergy and theologians during the Nazi Third Reich used Luther's hostile publications towards the Jews and their Jewish religion to justify at least in part the anti-Semitic policies of the National Socialists.[38] Published In 1940, Heinrich Himmler wrote admiringly of Luther's writings and sermons on the Jews.[39] The city of Nuremberg presented a first edition of On the Jews and their Lies to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, on his birthday in 1937; the newspaper described it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[40] It was publicly exhibited in a glass case at the Nuremberg rallies and quoted in a 54-page explanation of the Aryan Law by Dr. E.H. Schulz and Dr. R. Frercks.[41] On December 17, 1941, seven Lutheran regional church confederations issued a statement agreeing with the policy of forcing Jews to wear the yellow badge, "since after his bitter experience Luther had [strongly] suggested preventive measures against the Jews and their expulsion from German territory."

Michael states "Luther wrote of the Jews as if they were a race that could not truly convert to Christianity. Indeed, like so many Christian writers before him, Luther, by making the Jews the devil's people, put them beyond conversion." He notes that in a sermon of September 25, 1539, "Luther tried to demonstrate through several examples that individual Jews could not convert permanently, and in several passages of The Jews and Their Lies, Luther appeared to reject the possibility that the Jews would or could convert."[42]

Franklin Sherman, editor of volume 47 of the American Edition of Luther's Works in which On the Jews and Their Lies appears,[43] responds to the claim that "Luther's antipathy towards the Jews was religious rather than racial in nature," Luther's writings against the Jews, he explains, are not "merely a set of cool, calm and collected theological judgments. His writings are full of rage, and indeed hatred, against an identifiable human group, not just against a religious point of view; it is against that group that his action proposals are directed." Sherman argues that Luther "cannot be distanced completely from modern antisemites". Regarding Luther's treatise, On the Jews and Their Lies, the German philosopher Karl Jaspers wrote: "There you already have the whole Nazi program".[44]

Other scholars assert that Luther's antisemitism as expressed in On the Jews and Their Lies is based on religion. Bainton asserts that Luther's position was "entirely religious and in no respect racial. The supreme sin for him was the persistent rejection of God's revelation of himself in Christ. The centuries of Jewish suffering were themselves a mark of the divine displeasure. They should be compelled to leave and go to a land of their own. This was a program of enforced Zionism. But if it were not feasible, then Luther would recommend that the Jews be compelled to live from the soil. He was unwittingly proposing a return to the condition of the early Middle Ages, when the Jews had been in agriculture. Forced off the land, they had gone into commerce and, having been expelled from commerce, into money lending. Luther wished to reverse the process and thereby inadvertently would accord the Jews a more secure position than they enjoyed in his day."[45]

Paul Halsall argues that Luther's views had a part in laying the groundwork for the racial European antisemitism of the nineteenth century. He writes that "although Luther's comments seem to be proto-Nazi, they are better seen as part of tradition [sic] of Medieval Christian anti-semitism. While there is little doubt that Christian anti-semitism laid the social and cultural basis for modern anti-semitism, modern anti-semitism does differ in being based on pseudo-scientific notions of race. The Nazis imprisoned and killed even those ethnic Jews who had converted to Christianity: Luther would have welcomed their conversions."[46]

In his Lutheran Quarterly article, Wallmann argued that Luther's On the Jews and Their Lies, Against the Sabbabitarians, and Vom Schem Hamphoras were largely ignored by antisemites of the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries. He contended that Johann Andreas Eisenmenger and his Judaism Unmasked, published posthumously in 1711, was "a major source of evidence for the anti-Semites of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries" and "cast Luther's anti-Jewish writings into obscurity". In this 2000 page tome Eisenmenger makes no mention of Luther at all.[47]

The Lutheran court chaplain to Kaiser Wilhelm I, Adolf Stoecker, founded in 1878 an antisemitic and antiliberal party called the Christian Social Party (Germany). However, this party did not enjoy the mass support which the Nazis received during the 1930s, when the Great Depression hit Germany especially hard.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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To me, Satanic would require either worship of the devil, murder or mutilation of human beings (made in God's image), or else denial of the gospel message to people or a false gospel (so that they should perish in Hell). Luther advocated for none of that, save for making the life of a (religious) Jew who wanted to enjoy the benefits of Christian society very difficult - which is fair - if Judaism is such a beneficial religion, why should its adherents seek out societies made prosperous by other religions?

I actually think a lot of what he advocated for in the 7 items were reasonable (many more people would be in favour of these if they were proposed as a solution to the problem of Islam, or other false religions).
You think THESE things are from God and reasonable!?

  1. to burn down Jewish synagogues and schools and warn people against them
  2. to refuse to let Jews own houses among Christians
  3. to take away Jewish religious writings
  4. to forbid rabbis from preaching
  5. to offer no protection to Jews on highways
  6. for usury to be prohibited and for all Jews' silver and gold to be removed, put aside for safekeeping, and given back to Jews who truly convert
  7. to give young, strong Jews flail, axe, spade, and spindle, and let them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Here is a brief definition of amillennialism (https://www.prca.org/articles/amillennialism.html) from a Reformed website/

"A thousand years" is a figurative, or symbolical, description of the entire age of the new covenant. The number 1,000 is a symbolical number, made up as it is of the number 10. In the Bible, 10 is the number of completeness. The symbolical nature of the thousand year period is in harmony with the symbolical character of the book of Revelation, e.g., the depiction of Satan as a great red dragon ( Rev. 12). It is also in harmony with the obviously figurative character of the binding of the spirit, Satan, with a great chain. In addition, Revelation 20 is a vision ("and I saw," vv. 1, 4), not historical observation.

I see no where in this understanding which calls Christians to engage in any form of "anti-semitism"

Luther obviously did not read Josephus, nor did he have an understanding of Revelations and God who reserved vengeance for Himself.

However, I can draw a fairly strong connection between the "doctrine" of dispensationalism and its anti-Arab sentiment as invaders on land reserved only for the Jews which has lead to the sanction of ethnic cleansing which you yourself have supported.

The doctrine of dispensationalism does create a system of exceptionalism, a tribe which is better than the others.

However, scripture is clear.

Now “he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” (Rom 2:28-29). Now one is of the “Israel of God” not because of physical birth and circumcision, but by being a “new creature” (Gal 6:16). Exod 19:5-6 said about the Jews “ye shall be a peculiar … people … a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

"The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
Matt 21
FYI (as I am certain that you definitely do not know nor understand), the fact of the intentional inclusion of the Luke 2 Simeon account (who did not pass away until he saw for himself the Messiah) is definitive proof positive that Israel shall endure, repent and belive at the end of the future tribulation.

Furthermore the Simeon account is an abject refutation of amillenialism. AND replacement theology.

So let me ask you: does your Church understand and belive this account for what it truly represents? Or are you on a steady diet of morbid sermonettes?
 

Smoke

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2016
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You think THESE things are from God and reasonable!?

  1. to burn down Jewish synagogues and schools and warn people against them
  2. to refuse to let Jews own houses among Christians
  3. to take away Jewish religious writings
  4. to forbid rabbis from preaching
  5. to offer no protection to Jews on highways
  6. for usury to be prohibited and for all Jews' silver and gold to be removed, put aside for safekeeping, and given back to Jews who truly convert
  7. to give young, strong Jews flail, axe, spade, and spindle, and let them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow
Some people might think these things are from God and reasonable... Christians have a hard time calling out Jews who believe the Talmud which has writings much worse than what you posted. Apparently, it's antisemitic to disavow and condemn the Talmud and anyone who believes/follows it.

I posted some quotes of Winston Churchill comparing Palestinians to dogs but he is still celebrated for helping rid the world of Nazis. Our founding fathers believed "all men are created equate" but then proceeded to not treat them as equals yet we celebrate their positive contributions anyways. Anyone who condemns the bad things these people did and/or said always gets backlash from their apologists.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Some people might think these things are from God and reasonable...
I honestly appreciate your candor. It epitomizes just how insanely destructive Amillennialism really is.

That you, and others would think that it is reasonable, and God would ordain, burning down synagogues, and Jewish schools is beyond shocking!

I'm not being sarcastic when I say thank you for so clearly demonstrating what this whole Israel/Gaza/Muslim thing is all about.
 

Smoke

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2016
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I honestly appreciate your candor. It epitomizes just how insanely destructive Amillennialism really is.

That you, and others would think that it is reasonable, and God would ordain, burning down synagogues, and Jewish schools is beyond shocking!

I'm not being sarcastic when I say thank you for so clearly demonstrating what this whole Israel/Gaza/Muslim thing is all about.
I think you misread what I said. I never said I believe it's reasonable or God ordained. Hopefully this was an honest mistake on your part.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,572
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Some people might think these things are from God and reasonable...
You sad that. So who are these people that think burning synagogues and schools down is reasonable and from God?
 

Smoke

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2016
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You sad that. So who are these people that think burning synagogues and schools down is reasonable and from God?
"Some people" does not mean I think that. Do you understand the difference? We can discuss WHO believes that after we establish you misread or assumed something I didn't say. You can't just insincerely thank me for something I wasn't even saying I personally believed.
 
I take it that you also think that Jerusalem is first and foremost Arab/Palestinian territory?.
Personally, I would like the UN to designate Jerusalem as an international city of peace for all.

How about the actual site of the Jewish Temple (not the Antonia Fortress where the Western Wall is by the way)..
In my view, the Jewish Temple was built for and used by the Jewish people. Having said that, I would hope that they would welcome non-Jewish people as well.

And by the sounds of it you would prefer every Jew homeless in nationless.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, you need to have your ears checked and your truth gage checked as well.

Furthermore it is made perfectly clear by your earlier posts that you seek the extermination of every Jew alive.
I now need to be blunt. None of my earlier posts suggested this, none, nada zip.
As they say, put up or shut your filthy mouth.

By all accounts you seem to proclaim Hitlers attitude warmed over.
You have a bad case of liefobia, take two aspirins, drink a quart of vodka, vomit everything in your gut & then go to sleep for no less than 46 hours.
just a suggestion
no animosity intended or implied
:)-
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,341
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Personally, I would like the UN to designate Jerusalem as an international city of peace for all.
Let's start with your house, I'm sure many homeless will be very appreciative.


In my view, the Jewish Temple was built for and used by the Jewish people. Having said that, I would hope that they would welcome non-Jewish people as well.
That is a very generous view, that your house is built for all!
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,768
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Personally, I would like the UN to designate Jerusalem as an international city of peace for all.


In my view, the Jewish Temple was built for and used by the Jewish people. Having said that, I would hope that they would welcome non-Jewish people as well.


Wrong, wrong, wrong, you need to have your ears checked and your truth gage checked as well.


I now need to be blunt. None of my earlier posts suggested this, none, nada zip.
As they say, put up or shut your filthy mouth.



You have a bad case of liefobia, take two aspirins, drink a quart of vodka, vomit everything in your gut & then go to sleep for no less than 46 hours.
just a suggestion
no animosity intended or implied
:)-
That is quite a load of denials. Unfortunately for you there is massive evidence against you made clear by simply reviewing all of your earlier posts.

Furthermore, I doubt very much that you are capable (personally or otherwise) of accomplishing your ambitious desire to silence my inquiries about them. Albeit, given your personality it is understandable.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,768
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Personally, I would like the UN to designate Jerusalem as an international city of peace for all.
Just to let you know:
No legitimate Christian puts ANY faith or trust in the UN. Whatsoever.
Read Revelation 17 and tie it to the rest of the Bible and then connect this to the world you're living in.

If in fact you are capable and willing to do so. Though I find that possibility infinitesimally remote.
 
That is quite a load of denials. Unfortunately for you there is massive evidence against you made clear by simply reviewing all of your earlier posts.
I have heard this before, And it adds up to BS, then the same old BS on top of more BS.
Moses would not like your attitude either.

Furthermore, I doubt very much that you are capable (personally or otherwise) of accomplishing your ambitious desire to silence my inquiries about them.
What-? Now you have me laughing, & this I must thank you for.
Thank You Oh wise One, :)-

Albeit, given your personality it is understandable.
again thanks
now I feel that we are truly friends.
:)-
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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I have heard this before, And it adds up to BS, then the same old BS on top of more BS.
Moses would not like your attitude either.


What-? Now you have me laughing, & this I must thank you for.
Thank You Oh wise One, :)-


again thanks
now I feel that we are truly friends.
:)-
Only BS in the air that I smell is your absurd unbiblical notion that peace in Jerusalem (or the world) is achievable thru FALLEN ***inherently*** sinful men, and the uttery hopeless (cough cough) "United" Nations.

When in fact the the Lord Jesus states explicitly that ceasless wars of ever increasing lethality and frequency are determined until the Second Coming. And at the time of the end conditions will be so dire that NO flesh would be saved unless He cuts short the tribulation.

Any opinion or position to the contrary is NOT that which Christ declares plainly. Therefore it must be a lie.