Is Baptism in water a work or a command? Is it necessary for salvation?

[turbosixx]

I didn't say it wasn't "part of salvation", as a matter of fact I said I was baptized after I was saved in truth. We are told in scripture to get baptized, I have no beef with baptism at all to be clear...... until you make it a "must" in relation to being saved. This can not be true due to the fact I was saved before I went to share publicly that I was following Jesus and had been born again by being baptized.

To be clear I am talking about God opening my eyes to the ONLY way, a true "by Jesus sacrifice and the price paid on the cross to take the punishment for my sin, so that as His gift and by His power, and ALL for His glory, He resurrected my spirit and reconciled it back with His transforming me overnight, and completely rewriting my priorities turning me back to Him in truth as He created us to be in the beginning" kind of real salvation. This happen to me before I was baptized without a doubt. There is no way my expression of what happen by being baptized was part of what God did to me due to the simple act I was saved before I was baptized.

Saying that I believe being baptized is "not part of salvation" isn't fair. Saying that baptism is required to be saved is wrong though and CANNOT be right in my experience, and I have to testify so if I love truth. This is clearly adding a work to something God gives us for free. There is nothing you "do" to be saved, even more than that there is nothing you "can do" to be saved, besides seek.

I'm sorry, it's hard for me to get my points across most of the time.
When you say I was baptized after I was saved in truth, that is saying baptism is not part of the salvation process. I suggest to you, based on what I read in the bible, we are not saved until we are baptized in the name of Jesus. All conversions we see in scripture end in baptism. Here are some of the verses that tell me that.

After Jesus had been given all authority, He sent the apostles out to preach the gospel and convert the believers to be added to His church. These are His instructions to them.
Matt. 28:19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Mark 16:16 The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned.

We see the very first hearers and believes of the gospel do exactly what Jesus instructed.
Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
Saved/added comes after belief and baptism.

 

[Knowledged]

Water Batism: John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease. So John said my ministry of water baptism
must decrease and Christ ministry of baptizing with the “Holy ghost and fire must increase.
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

not the putting away the filth of the flesh how do you put away the filth of the flesh, with Water!
but the answer to a good conscience you have to be converted CHANGE!
if dunk a thief in water when he comes up you just have a wet thief lol!

 

[turbosixx]

Water Batism: John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease. So John said my ministry of water baptism
must decrease and Christ ministry of baptizing with the “Holy ghost and fire must increase.
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

I suggest to you what John is talking about only happened twice. Look at what John says there. Baptize with the HS. Please consider.

John said Jesus would baptize with the HS so this is looking forward. Jesus tells the apostles they would be baptized with the HS shortly, still looking forward.
5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

So on the day of Pentecost, we see the first time someone is with the HS and it is (1) directly from God and (2) evident by the speaking in tongues.
3 And tongues that looked like fire appeared to them, distributing themselves, and a tongue rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with different tongues, as the Spirit was giving them the ability to speak out.

Then years later we see the second time someone is baptized with the HS and it's Cornelius. Directly from God and evident by the speaking in tongues.
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had also been poured out on the Gentiles.

There is a lot of commotion about Peter preaching to Gentiles and this is some of what he says about it.
Acts 11: 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Do a search for baptized with the HS and you will see these are the only two times it happened and each was a special situation.

 

[Knowledged]

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

not the putting away the filth of the flesh how do you put away the filth of the flesh, with Water!
but the answer to a good conscience you have to be converted CHANGE!
if dunk a thief in water when he comes up you just have a wet thief lol!

Jeremiah 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.
So you can use all the water (nitre) and take much soap, use all the water and soap you want
your iniquity (sin) is marked before the Lord GOD.

 

[Knowledged]

I suggest to you what John is talking about only happened twice. Look at what John says there. Baptize with the HS. Please consider.

John said Jesus would baptize with the HS so this is looking forward. Jesus tells the apostles they would be baptized with the HS shortly, still looking forward.
5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

So on the day of Pentecost, we see the first time someone is with the HS and it is (1) directly from God and (2) evident by the speaking in tongues.
3 And tongues that looked like fire appeared to them, distributing themselves, and a tongue rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with different tongues, as the Spirit was giving them the ability to speak out.

Then years later we see the second time someone is baptized with the HS and it's Cornelius. Directly from God and evident by the speaking in tongues.
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had also been poured out on the Gentiles.

There is a lot of commotion about Peter preaching to Gentiles and this is some of what he says about it.
Acts 11: 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Do a search for baptized with the HS and you will see these are the only two times it happened and each was a special situation.

Let’s see you talked Pentecost, tongues, Cornelius and the Holy Spirit, are we still talking about water baptism or not?
you went all over the place!

 

[Knowledged]

Tongues just means another language:
Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. Not all jibberish

1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speak in an unknown tongue edify himself; but he that prophesy edify
the church.
what’s the point in speaking in a unknown language that no one understands but you, they don’t even know what they just said lol! we suppose to be here to edify the people, thats all smoke and mirrors!

 

[Knowledged]

Tongues just means another language:
Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. Not all jibberish

1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speak in an unknown tongue edify himself; but he that prophesy edify
the church.
what’s the point in speaking in a unknown language that no one understands but you, they don’t even know what they just said lol! we suppose to be here to edify the people, thats all smoke and mirrors!

Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost:
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Acts 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
Holy Spirt or Holy Ghost is the Law!

 

[Knowledged]

Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost:
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Acts 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
Holy Spirt or Holy Ghost is the Law!

Let’s see what Christ taught:
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
so Christ didn’t come to do his own will or teach another doctrine he came to do the will of the Father who set him.
Now we have to know what the will is:
Psalms 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart. King David said the will of TMH is his Law! If we just let the Bible speak because what I think or anybody else doesn’t mean anything

 

[Knowledged]

Water Baptism is not a Commandment you can do it but it won’t keep you out the Kingdom if you don’t

 

[Magenta]

“And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams,
and your young men shall see visions. Even on the male and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit."

Acts 2:17 (Joel 2:28)

 

[turbosixx]

Let’s see you talked Pentecost, tongues, Cornelius and the Holy Spirit, are we still talking about water baptism or not?
you went all over the place!

Sorry, I should have mentioned I was replying to this part of the verse you posted.
but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

I was pointing out that what John was talking about, baptized with the HS, is not water baptism nor baptism of the HS either. It was directly from God and evidenced by the speaking of tongues and only happened to two groups of people for special reasons.

 

[Komentaja]

Tongues just means another language:
Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. Not all jibberish

1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speak in an unknown tongue edify himself; but he that prophesy edify
the church.
what’s the point in speaking in a unknown language that no one understands but you, they don’t even know what they just said lol! we suppose to be here to edify the people, thats all smoke and mirrors!

How does speaking in an unknown of foreign tongue edify "himself"? If I start speaking spanish right now, how would that help me?

 

[Wansvic]

Acts 8 and Acts 19 give us examples of exceptions to what is the norm. Acts 2 gives us the norm. And Ephesians 1 confirms what the norm is.

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Hearing the Gospel and believing it results in receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, who then regenerates the believer (Titus 3:4-7). This is the norm.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

We see here that being justified by grace through faith and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost "which He shed on us abundantly" are simultaneous. So do not bring up exception to what is actually shown in Scripture.

The Acts 2 account itself reveals the Holy Ghost is not automatically received upon believing in Jesus but at varying points. Those praying in the upper room believed in the resurrected Christ and were waiting to be indwelt by the Holy Ghost. While others after believing in Jesus were instructed how they too could receive the Holy Ghost: Repent, and be baptized...and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:2-38)

Fast forward to Acts 8 and 19:
In Acts 8 the group waited to receive the Holy Ghost. And did so days after already believing in Jesus and submitting to water baptism in His name. Their waiting is a parallel to what occurred in the beginning of Acts chapter 2.

In Acts 19, the individuals believed Paul's message concerning Jesus. Submitted to being rebaptized in water in the name of Jesus, and immediately afterward received the Holy Ghost. This parallels what Peter instructed in Acts 2:38.

Also relevant is what occurred in Acts 10. The individuals received the Holy Ghost as Peter was preaching about Jesus. Afterward the group submitted to being water baptized in the name of Jesus.

The Ephesians scripture you mentioned states after hearing the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, the people placed their trust in Jesus and were sealed with the Holy Ghost of promise. The word of truth that brought about the promise of receiving the Holy Ghost is revealed in the scriptures referenced above.

The sequence of events associated with the NT rebirth continue to vary as God chooses and for His purposes. We know this to be true as "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Tim. 3:16-17.

 

[hornetguy]

Let’s see you talked Pentecost, tongues, Cornelius and the Holy Spirit, are we still talking about water baptism or not?
you went all over the place!

Um....pot, meet kettle

 

[Jimbone]

I'm sorry, it's hard for me to get my points across most of the time.
When you say I was baptized after I was saved in truth, that is saying baptism is not part of the salvation process. I suggest to you, based on what I read in the bible, we are not saved until we are baptized in the name of Jesus. All conversions we see in scripture end in baptism. Here are some of the verses that tell me that.

After Jesus had been given all authority, He sent the apostles out to preach the gospel and convert the believers to be added to His church. These are His instructions to them.
Matt. 28:19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Mark 16:16 The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned.

We see the very first hearers and believes of the gospel do exactly what Jesus instructed.
Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
Saved/added comes after belief and baptism.

I guess this depends on what you mean when you say saved.
When I say saved I am talking about that moment when God opens our eyes to the truth of our weakness and the futility of our own "power" in this world over our lives, and we turn from it. When this happens the dead spirit we were born with because of Adams sin is resurrected, but only because Jesus paid for our sin on the cross. The virgin born (not born of Adam, so not born into sin, very important point) God-man who knew no sin, who walked in God's will 100% as no other man ever could, and He EARNED eternal life by His standard. This Man laid down His life and took every bit of the wrath from God that I(we) deserve so that upon our repentance He could take my sin and justly say it was punished, while taking His perfect righteousness and applying it to me by His grace, resurrecting my dead spirit and reconciling it to Him, His Spirit, repairing our relationship and making it as it was created to be.

This is what being saved is when I say it. This is what I mean, and I can not lie about it, I was saved BEFORE I was baptized plain and simple. I can tell you right now with all assurity that you do not have to be dunked into water for this to happen. This is being born again, being "born of the spirit". If what you are teaching here is that a person has to be baptized for this to happen you're wrong. I don't say this to you to be mean or ugly, but to share the truth with you. To be fair after I was saved I wanted to be baptized, and was of course, so I'd still say baptism is "part of salvation", but to teach anything like "baptism is necessary to be saved", that is just not the truth so should not be believed or taught.

What to you mean by "being saved"?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

If you do something that is commanded, it is a work by definition.

no, it is not!

what kind of illogic is that.

so, let's say, a bunch of us from CC is at a place where we are meeting in Person and discussing issues like we do on here.
and Jesus, walks in, and say's, I Command You to do this.

i suppose you will say to Jesus, forget it bud, that's works.

what do you think Jesus would say?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

First Moral LAW: 10 Commandments

Love thy God and have no other gods before me.

i suppose, for this to not be a Work, you erect Idols in your life so you are not following a Command...because...it is a Works.

that's how it reads to me.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

i suppose when God puts the idea to help the homeless with food, it's an actual Command, that you let the homeless STARVE because you think it's a works?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

the Great Commission, is a Command, and you say that is works.

how do people get Saved, if no one obeys the Commands?

probably why 90% of the World is going to Hell.

someone, thinks it is a works, to Obey Jesus!

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

probably why Jesus said this:

21. It is not everyone that says to me, 'My Lord, my Lord'', who enters the Kingdom of Heaven, but whoever does the will of my Father who is in Heaven.
22. Many will say to me in that day, 'My Lord, my Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, and in your name have cast out demons, and have done many mighty works in your name?'
23. And then I will confess to them, 'I have never known you, remove yourselves far from me, you workers of evil.'


but whoever does the will of my Father who is in Heaven.
^
how do you do the Will of the Father?
You OBEY the Father's COMMANDS!

that some claim to be works.