Is Baptism in water a work or a command? Is it necessary for salvation?

[Jimbone]

I agree the truth matters and I believe how one is saved is the very most important answer we need to get right. I disagree with your view on baptism so it is not part of salvation, would you mind start with answering, what must I do to be saved? And how would you support that with scripture.

I didn't say it wasn't "part of salvation", as a matter of fact I said I was baptized after I was saved in truth. We are told in scripture to get baptized, I have no beef with baptism at all to be clear...... until you make it a "must" in relation to being saved. This can not be true due to the fact I was saved before I went to share publicly that I was following Jesus and had been born again by being baptized.

To be clear I am talking about God opening my eyes to the ONLY way, a true "by Jesus sacrifice and the price paid on the cross to take the punishment for my sin, so that as His gift and by His power, and ALL for His glory, He resurrected my spirit and reconciled it back with His transforming me overnight, and completely rewriting my priorities turning me back to Him in truth as He created us to be in the beginning" kind of real salvation. This happen to me before I was baptized without a doubt. There is no way my expression of what happen by being baptized was part of what God did to me due to the simple act I was saved before I was baptized.

Saying that I believe being baptized is "not part of salvation" isn't fair. Saying that baptism is required to be saved is wrong though and CANNOT be right in my experience, and I have to testify so if I love truth. This is clearly adding a work to something God gives us for free. There is nothing you "do" to be saved, even more than that there is nothing you "can do" to be saved, besides seek.

 

[NightTwister]

So you thumbs it down, refuse to believe what the word means, despite evidence provided, and just continue on and make no effort in even defending the sprinkling view? And it says you are a licensed minister? The absolute state of "ministers" nowadays

Actually, I think pouring has the best symbology. No need to "defend" the view. There's nothing I can say that you haven't already heard, such as, "no, the word doesn't mean only that."

 

[NightTwister]

There is one in this very thread who teaches no water baptism for today lol. mr Grace_ambassador and the hyper-dispensational people.

So, about 0.01%-ish of Christians today. It's so important that you straighten those folks out.

 

[hornetguy]

So you thumbs it down, refuse to believe what the word means, despite evidence provided, and just continue on and make no effort in even defending the sprinkling view? And it says you are a licensed minister? The absolute state of "ministers" nowadays

I'm pretty sure you can get your "minister" license in WalMart, in the "novelties" section. A long time ago, you could get them in a box of Cracker Jack ....

 

[Wansvic]

I already told you...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

When asked, "What must we do?" Peter did not say believe, because the hearers had already met that criteria. Peter's answer was, "Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sin and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Why? Because in order to experience the NT rebirth requires both belief AND obedience to the stated commands. (John 3:3-5, Mark 16:15-16, Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

Also relevant to the topic is the fact that Jesus told Peter he would receive the KEYS to the kingdom. Not a single key, but keys. (Matt. 16:19) After receiving the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost Peter did in fact present keys that make it possible to gain entrance into God's kingdom. (Acts 2:37-41) The same keys were offered to Samaritans, Gentiles and 12 individuals in Ephesus indicating that this truth applies to all.

 

[Cameron143]

I'm pretty sure you can get your "minister" license in WalMart, in the "novelties" section. A long time ago, you could get them in a box of Cracker Jack ....

Also, you can send in 4 box tops from Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. But it will take 4-6 weeks before they will mail you your certificate.

 

[Cameron143]

When asked, "What must we do?" Peter did not say believe, because the hearers had already met that criteria. Peter's answer was, "Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sin and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Why? Because in order to experience the NT rebirth requires both belief AND obedience to the stated commands. (John 3:3-5, Mark 16:15-16, Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

Also relevant to the topic is the fact that Jesus told Peter he would receive the KEYS to the kingdom. Not a single key, but keys. (Matt. 16:19) After receiving the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost Peter did in fact present keys that make it possible to gain entrance into God's kingdom. (Acts 2:37-41) The same keys were offered to Samaritans, Gentiles and 12 individuals in Ephesus indicating that this truth applies to all.

You are preaching to the choir here. I've been pushing verse 37 of Act 2 forever. This is where these people are born again. Acts 2:38 and following are the results.
What happened on Pentecost was not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It was the outpouring or baptism of the Spirit promised in Joel 2:28. It is also known as the promise of the Father that Jesus spoke of to the disciples when He told them to wait in Jerusalem until they should receive power.
The keys to the kingdom is a euphemism for authority. Jesus said He had the keys to death and Hell. He also said He had all authority, hence the great commission. Having the keys to death and Hell is the reason Jesus said I will build my church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.
No one has ever been saved and not received the indwelling Holy Spirit. Salvation has not changed. It has always been by grace through faith. The operation of the Spirit under the old covenant was not as pronounced as it is in the new covenant, but every true child of God from Adam until whomever is last, has the indwelling of the Spirit.

 

[ByTheGraceOfGod]

One man's garbage is another man's treasure.

Some people have an aversion to to the inorganic compound called water.

 

[Wansvic]

You are preaching to the choir here. I've been pushing verse 37 of Act 2 forever. This is where these people are born again. Acts 2:38 and following are the results.
What happened on Pentecost was not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It was the outpouring or baptism of the Spirit promised in Joel 2:28. It is also known as the promise of the Father that Jesus spoke of to the disciples when He told them to wait in Jerusalem until they should receive power.
The keys to the kingdom is a euphemism for authority. Jesus said He had the keys to death and Hell. He also said He had all authority, hence the great commission. Having the keys to death and Hell is the reason Jesus said I will build my church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.
No one has ever been saved and not received the indwelling Holy Spirit. Salvation has not changed. It has always been by grace through faith. The operation of the Spirit under the old covenant was not as pronounced as it is in the new covenant, but every true child of God from Adam until whomever is last, has the indwelling of the Spirit.

I know you do not agree. However, scripture indicates that no one is born again until AFTER their sins are remitted and they have received the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost. As revealed by the Apostle Paul, a person can believe yet still not have the Holy Ghost; "Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed? (Acts 19:1-6) And this truth is confirmed as well in the Samaritan account recorded in Acts 8:12-18.

 

[Jimbone]

I know you do not agree. However, scripture indicates that no one is born again until AFTER their sins are remitted and they have received the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost. As revealed by the Apostle Paul, a person can believe yet still not have the Holy Ghost; "Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed? (Acts 19:1-6) And this truth is confirmed as well in the Samaritan account recorded in Acts 8:12-18.

I was born again (indwelt by the Holy Spirit) before being baptized. So....

 

[Komentaja]

Actually, I think pouring has the best symbology. No need to "defend" the view. There's nothing I can say that you haven't already heard, such as, "no, the word doesn't mean only that."

I am genuinely interested in the alternative. Why do you think it fits the symbology best? The way I see it submersion equals "buried with Him" in baptism

 

[Cameron143]

I know you do not agree. However, scripture indicates that no one is born again until AFTER their sins are remitted and they have received the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost. As revealed by the Apostle Paul, a person can believe yet still not have the Holy Ghost; "Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed? (Acts 19:1-6) And this truth is confirmed as well in the Samaritan account recorded in Acts 8:12-18.

A couple of things. And thanks always for your kind demeanor.
Sins were remitted at the Cross. Salvation is the application of this to a person in space and time. It is the revelation of the Father to the person of the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is what Jesus said was true of Peter and was the source of the blessing. Jesus went on to say that upon this blessing...the revelation by the Father of who and what Jesus is and has done...He will build His church.
This is exactly what happened to those people the day of Pentecost. God came, moved upon those people, and saved them. He used His word and His Spirit, produced faith. The evidence this happened is in Acts 2:37. Not 1 person this change was not wrought in believed or was baptized.
The second issue is a conflating of the baptism of the Spirit and the indwelling of the Spirit. The former is what was evidenced the day of Pentecost and subsequently through the book of Acts. It is outward, experiential, and manifest. The latter is inward, nonexperiential, and unobserved. The first is what is explained by Ephesians 1:13 and 1 Peter 1:8. The second is found in 1 Corinthians 12:13 and Romans 8:15-16. As long as you conflate these 2 you will misunderstand the outworking of salvation.

 

[ByTheGraceOfGod]

I was born again (indwelt by the Holy Spirit) before being baptized. So....

Your claiming to already be born-again explains why you hate the commandments of God so much.

 

[oyster67]

If Christ is not in us until after we are baptized, what are the implications of that?

Baptism seems to be the squirrely-word in these threads. Everyone wants to inject tub water into it.

 

[Cameron143]

Baptism seems to be the squirrely-word in these threads. Everyone wants to inject tub water into it.

Rub-a-dub-dub, three Christians in a tub.

 

[NightTwister]

I am genuinely interested in the alternative. Why do you think it fits the symbology best? The way I see it submersion equals "buried with Him" in baptism

“And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
and your young men shall see visions.
Even on the male and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit."

 

[Wansvic]

I was born again (indwelt by the Holy Spirit) before being baptized. So....

I was indwelt by the Holy Ghost prior to water baptism as well. I do not believe, as some, that people receive the Holy Spirit when they get baptized in water in the name of Jesus. Obedience to baptism in water is for remission of one personal sin in accordance with Jesus' sacrifice. According to Paul it is when we are buried with Jesus into death. Receiving the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost takes place separately as detailed scripture confirms. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

 

[Nehemiah6]

As revealed by the Apostle Paul, a person can believe yet still not have the Holy Ghost; "Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed? (Acts 19:1-6) And this truth is confirmed as well in the Samaritan account recorded in Acts 8:12-18.

Acts 8 and Acts 19 give us examples of exceptions to what is the norm. Acts 2 gives us the norm. And Ephesians 1 confirms what the norm is.

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Hearing the Gospel and believing it results in receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, who then regenerates the believer (Titus 3:4-7). This is the norm.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

We see here that being justified by grace through faith and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost "which He shed on us abundantly" are simultaneous. So do not bring up exception to what is actually shown in Scripture.

 

[turbosixx]

I believe that faith (repentance implied or assumed) completes the conversion process and water baptism follows.

What you teach is salvation by faith + the work of baptism.

No. Luke 13:3 - unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Unless we repent (change our mind) we will not believe the gospel and be saved. (Romans 1:16)

Now confess is not a work for salvation. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep, personal conviction from the heart that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So how can one believe unto righteousness (and still be lost?) and also, how can confession be made unto salvation when confession "precedes" water baptism if water baptism completes the conversion experience?

No it's not. Being saved 100% through faith would mean that we have placed our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. We are trusting 100% in Jesus, what He accomplished to save us. Faith in baptism for salvation is not 100% faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for salvation.

It's by or "out of" faith that we get baptized and accomplish other good works, yet faith is not baptism. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I basically defined faith "as" baptism and obedience in general. It was not until I placed my faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation that the light finally came on.

Of course Noah had faith. It was by or "out of" faith that Noah built the ark. Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith and not the origin of it. Building the ark demonstrated that Noah believed God about flooding the earth and the ark saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:17) If Noah would have refused to build the ark, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith in what God told him about flooding the earth, but of course, that was not the case.



You mean through what is signified in baptism? No.

You don't believe that water baptism pictures the death, burial and resurrection of Christ? (Romans 6:3-5)

No. I'm simply saying the Bible does not say that baptism was the cause of them being added.

I can see you're as convinced that baptism is not necessary as I am that it is, so we might be wasting our time. You've got me thinking and hopefully you are to so that's a good thing.
I'm sorry but I obviously can't keep up with all the information you're putting out. I feel to reply to that much volume, each point is not given it's due diligence. I suggest if we could focus on a key point and discuss the replies before we move on to the next one that would be great.

I would like to talk about your reply for this verse.
16 The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned.

This is your reply to that verse. I've changed the order of your points to put it in chronological order.

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it in the following verses. (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). Yet what is the 1 requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

I suggest that this is an unfair "test". Would you apply the same "test" to repent/ance that you know is necessary for salvation. If repentance is required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention repent/ance, not necessarily in those verses, but at least in the book of John. You know how many times repent/ance is mentioned in the book of John, zero.

The reason we see "believe" so much is because that is the first and most important step. Without belief, it doesn't matter at all what follows. Also, at this point in Jesus's ministry, He's trying to convince the Jews to believe that He is the Messiah.
I also suggest another reason we don't see it much at this point is because this is before Jesus commanded baptism in His name.

Don't stop there. Keep reading - ..but he who does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16(b). The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

You are correct that condemnation rests on unbelief. The omission of baptism with "does not believe" shows that without belief nothing can save you.

So when Jesus does command baptism in His name, He says The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved;
Jesus puts baptism with belief and before saved because the one who truly believes will be baptized in His name. If salvation came after belief and before baptism, Jesus would have said so but He didn't.
So that is the instructions Jesus gave the apostles for the great commission. Baptize the believers in the name of the Father, the Son and the HS. He who believes and is baptized will be saved.
The very first time we see people converted by hearing and believing the gospel, that is exactly what we see. This confirms Jesus's commandment and sets the precedent.
41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
The exact same order as Jesus instructed. You say it doesn't say baptism was the direct cause of them being added. I suggest it does. Only those who believed and were baptized (both past tense) were added.
Words are how information is communicated. If we even change the same words around, the meaning changes. If salvation came after belief as you say, it would read those who had received his word were added about three thousand souls and they were baptized. Same words rearranged, different meaning.

IJohn 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Again, this is before Jesus commanded baptism in His name.

 

[Knowledged]

I can see you're as convinced that baptism is not necessary as I am that it is, so we might be wasting our time. You've got me thinking and hopefully you are to so that's a good thing.
I'm sorry but I obviously can't keep up with all the information you're putting out. I feel to reply to that much volume, each point is not given it's due diligence. I suggest if we could focus on a key point and discuss the replies before we move on to the next one that would be great.

I would like to talk about your reply for this verse.
16 The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned.

This is your reply to that verse. I've changed the order of your points to put it in chronological order.


I suggest that this is an unfair "test". Would you apply the same "test" to repent/ance that you know is necessary for salvation. If repentance is required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention repent/ance, not necessarily in those verses, but at least in the book of John. You know how many times repent/ance is mentioned in the book of John, zero.

The reason we see "believe" so much is because that is the first and most important step. Without belief, it doesn't matter at all what follows. Also, at this point in Jesus's ministry, He's trying to convince the Jews to believe that He is the Messiah.
I also suggest another reason we don't see it much at this point is because this is before Jesus commanded baptism in His name.


You are correct that condemnation rests on unbelief. The omission of baptism with "does not believe" shows that without belief nothing can save you.

So when Jesus does command baptism in His name, He says The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved;
Jesus puts baptism with belief and before saved because the one who truly believes will be baptized in His name. If salvation came after belief and before baptism, Jesus would have said so but He didn't.
So that is the instructions Jesus gave the apostles for the great commission. Baptize the believers in the name of the Father, the Son and the HS. He who believes and is baptized will be saved.
The very first time we see people converted by hearing and believing the gospel, that is exactly what we see. This confirms Jesus's commandment and sets the precedent.
41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
The exact same order as Jesus instructed. You say it doesn't say baptism was the direct cause of them being added. I suggest it does. Only those who believed and were baptized (both past tense) were added.
Words are how information is communicated. If we even change the same words around, the meaning changes. If salvation came after belief as you say, it would read those who had received his word were added about three thousand souls and they were baptized. Same words rearranged, different meaning.


Again, this is before Jesus commanded baptism in His name.

Water Batism: John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease. So John said my ministry of water baptism
must decrease and Christ ministry of baptizing with the “Holy ghost and fire must increase.
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: