Does God Know From All Eternity Who Will Die Having Rejected Sound Doctrine?

[John146]

I don't think God ever intended for Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. The word for "burnt offering" actually means "to offer up, to cause to ascend".
True, it is almost always used exclusively to refer to burnt offerings in the OT, since the rising smoke ascended. But it occurs twice elsewhere meaning stairs. If we offer up anything to God without burning it, it still ascends. I believe God to Abraham to offer up Isaac and Abraham misunderstood that God wanted Him to stop coddling Isaac and entrust him fully to God's protection. But God allowed abraham to continue under that misapprehension so that Abraham could be brought to the point of truly handing Isaac over to God, believing that God wuld keep His promise re Isaac by raising him from the dead. Once Abraham crossed that threshold of faith and handing over with the knife raised, God stopped him.

Abraham was going to slay his only son. He had a knife up and ready until the Lord stepped in. He knew if he did kill his son, God would raise him from the dead.

Hebrews 11
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

 

[posthuman]

God is everlasting. Time is an attribute of God.

i think you have this backwards.

because God is eternal, everlasting, immortal, time is NOT an attribute of God.
exactly thr opposite is true - just as 'temporal' is the antonym of 'eternal'

time is one of the pillars of creation,and He is Creator, not created time is a measurement of change, and He is unchanging.

 

[PaulThomson]

Hello, Paul. Yes, the Elect are more than one—plural. However, I believe that through His foreknowledge, God chose each of His Election on an individual basis. Thoughts?

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

- Romans 8:28-30 (KJV)

All those "whoms" (ous) are plural relative pronouns, so not "the one whom he foreknew" but those whom he foreknew. And as I say the culture inthe first century was not so radically individualistic as our present culture. So it would be fair to put on communal tribal lenses when reading these verses.

. We can reasonably read this verse as God choosing in the past a community of people who would be found in Christ in the future, without the particular individuals being in view as being individually called . The new testament could have used the word ekastos (each one) to indicate that each one of us who are in Christ, God chose before the salvation of the world. But the NT does not state unequivocally state anywhere that any choosing of a bride before foundation was of individuals (ekastos, each one). The Greek language was quite capable of unambiguously stating that before the foundation of the world God chose each one who would be in Christ in Paul's day. But God never says that.

 

[PaulThomson]

i think you have this backwards.

because God is eternal, everlasting, immortal, time is NOT an attribute of God.
exactly thr opposite is true - just as 'temporal' is the antonym of 'eternal'

time is one of the pillars of creation,and He is Creator, not created time is a measurement of change, and He is unchanging.

On the contrary, because God is everlasting, and from everlasting to everlasting, he has time without beginning and without end as an attribute. The concept of eternity is not in the Hebrew of Greek Biblical texts. It is a product of Greek philosophy, and we know from scripture that the Greeks did not discover wisdom with their wisdom, and salvation is of the Jews, and to the Jews belonged the oracles of God, not the Greeks.

 

[PaulThomson]

I wrote -

Let's apply this to your position.
Which of these statements do you reject?

1.God's holiness is an indispensible attribute according to scripture.
2.God's holiness means there has never been any moral evil in Him.
3.There has never been a time when God was not free of all moral evil.
4.God never changes.
5.God never learns anything.
6.Everything that is and happens has always been known by God. He never started to know anything.
7.All moral evil in the world was always in God's eternal mind, as was the performing of it, before creation began.

How do you reconcile 7 with 1-6 ?

awareness of sin does not make you guilty of that sin, as previously discussed.

God knows your sin.
that does not make God a sinner.

How did God in your eternity know all the evil that would ever be devised before He created anything at all ,and yet God also be HOLY with all that evil imagination in Him that he had generated from Himself ? You don't see a holy God conjuring up every manner of evil on His own and keeping that in His heart always as any kind of contradiction? Open theism doesn't need to justify that kind of good God with self-generated evil imaginations.

 

[PaulThomson]

Foreknowledge simply means that God knows about things in the future. This should not be a new concept to anyone who has heard of a thing called "prophecy". Just because He knows things does not mean or imply that He forces things. The Bible is clear about every man needing to confess, repent, and believe. Foreknowledge in no way prevents or preempts this.

Exhaustive foreknowledge is one explanation for the fulfilment of prophecy, but is not the only explanation possible. Hence, exhaustive foreknowledge, though a popular explanation, has not been proven to be the explanation.

 

[PaulThomson]

I merely wrote what scripture records. As far as answering, I don't know. God is angry over nonrepented sin of nonbelievers. If people are punished throughout eternity, maybe. Is God angry at His children, I think no. Even when they sin, His chastening reflects love.

You are not digging deep enough and logically enough. You claim God does not change. If God looking from your supposed timeless eternal state does not change in any way over all of history and seeing all of history from everlasting to everlasting in one timeless now, and he is angry with someone at some point in history, how does he escape from being angry with them from everlasting to everlasting. And if he is pleased with someone else at some point in time, how does He escape from being pleased with them from everlasting to everlasting.

Maybe it is your God who is chained in a cave and bound to His eternal inability to change. Open theism does not have these kinds of logical paradoxes to contend with.

 

[PaulThomson]

I'm trying my best to answer when you address me. But I don't understand much of what you say. I can't follow your reasoning. I have no interest in harpooning anyone. You are all over the place. Don't get upset when someone can't follow.

Maybe if you don't understand something in someone's post, the Christ-like response is to gain understanding by asking question, rather than ad homs and straw manning. Luke 2:46.

 

[PaulThomson]

So if you fall away, you were not called?

All who hear the gospel are called. I should have said yes, Rom. 8: 28-29 does apply to me today. "Today, if you hear his voice..."

 

[posthuman]

The concept of eternity is not in the Hebrew of Greek Biblical texts.

you are quite mistaken.

Ecclesiastes 3:11​

He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, He has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.​

 

[posthuman]

I wrote -

Let's apply this to your position.
Which of these statements do you reject?

1.God's holiness is an indispensible attribute according to scripture.
2.God's holiness means there has never been any moral evil in Him.
3.There has never been a time when God was not free of all moral evil.
4.God never changes.
5.God never learns anything.
6.Everything that is and happens has always been known by God. He never started to know anything.
7.All moral evil in the world was always in God's eternal mind, as was the performing of it, before creation began.

How do you reconcile 7 with 1-6 ?


How did God in your eternity know all the evil that would ever be devised before He created anything at all ,and yet God also be HOLY with all that evil imagination in Him that he had generated from Himself ? You don't see a holy God conjuring up every manner of evil on His own and keeping that in His heart always as any kind of contradiction? Open theism doesn't need to justify that kind of good God with self-generated evil imaginations.

knowledge of a crime is not tantamount to committing that crime.

major logical error you're repeating.

God is not guilty of your sin just because He sees it.

 

[notmyown]

as though, we can be like the most high?

more a case of "you thought I was just like you".

 

[Cameron143]

You are not digging deep enough and logically enough. You claim God does not change. If God looking from your supposed timeless eternal state does not change in any way over all of history and seeing all of history from everlasting to everlasting in one timeless now, and he is angry with someone at some point in history, how does he escape from being angry with them from everlasting to everlasting. And if he is pleased with someone else at some point in time, how does He escape from being pleased with them from everlasting to everlasting.

Maybe it is your God who is chained in a cave and bound to His eternal inability to change. Open theism does not have these kinds of logical paradoxes to contend with.

God claims He does not change. I just agree with God. As far as whether that's deep or logical, I haven't considered past...is it true? The immutability of God is centered in His character, not His actions. Thus, God doesn't always have to act the same way, merely act always within His nature.

 

[Cameron143]

Maybe if you don't understand something in someone's post, the Christ-like response is to gain understanding by asking question, rather than ad homs and straw manning. Luke 2:46.

I get it. You don't care for humor. I think the best thing to do is apologize and move on. So please accept my apologies and I bid you grace and peace.

 

[Jimbone]

There is not a word for word correspodence between languages. A word in Hebrew has a semantic range, a spectrum of meanings, and English language translators choose a word from English that matches the meaning from the Hebrew spectrum that they believe best conveys the Hebrew thought into English. Sometimes more than one Hebrew meaning makes sense, but the translator chooses one, possible the wrong one.. The result is a sentence that makes sense in English but may miss the meaning intended by the Hebrew. writer.

:You said, "He is saying He "declares" the END from the beginning. Not He waits to see it." Do you recognise that God does not say
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 observing the beginning to the end all at once,
and from ancient times everything not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,
by pre-determining everything between the beginning of the world and the purposed end.

But God says,
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

God declaring "an end/a goal/a purpose" at some time in history, where the purpose was conceived at some earlier time in history from the goal being achieved, does not prove that God has eternal exhaustive foreknowledge. It merely says that God sometimes conceives of and is determined to bring about a goal and he will not fail to achieve those goals. Drawing any broader meaning from this text one needs to add ideas from outside the text and outside of the Bible itself..

See I'm quoting scripture, you are adding to it. Do you not see this? You have to literally change what it says for it to mean what YOU want it to. If you can't see this plain as day with these last two comments then I don't know what else to tell you.

You said that "I" say, no see you're dead wrong there, I don't say, His word says. Again-

9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

God says this, and lets point out the other part now too, He says "My counsel shall stand,and I will accomplish all my purpose".

So He says He declares and that His counsel will stand, and He will accomplish, but like a hypocrite then YOU SAY "No, He waits to see it".
So see you're accusing me of EXACTLY what YOU are doing. God says-
"I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done"
and YOU say "He waits to see it"

So God waits? You think God is constrained by time? You know He created it right?

I'm not trying to be rude here but I'm not sure we are even talking about the same God here, and to be honest I'm not sure how to continue this conversation if you're just going to deny reality and scripture while accusing me of what you're blatantly doing. It's like trying to have a real conversation with a radical democrat in good faith that they'll be rational. When you just "make up" your argument it's a waste of everybody's time and I don't see the point unless you come with something more grounded in truth next go round. If not then have a great day.

 

[Cameron143]

more a case of "you thought I was just like you".

There should be an emoji for "insightful".

 

[John146]

See I'm quoting scripture, you are adding to it. Do you not see this? You have to literally change what it says for it to mean what YOU want it to. If you can't see this plain as day with these last two comments then I don't know what else to tell you.

You said that "I" say, no see you're dead wrong there, I don't say, His word says. Again-

9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

God says this, and lets point out the other part now too, He says "My counsel shall stand,and I will accomplish all my purpose".

So He says He declares and that His counsel will stand, and He will accomplish, but like a hypocrite then YOU SAY "No, He waits to see it".
So see you're accusing me of EXACTLY what YOU are doing. God says-
"I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done"
and YOU say "He waits to see it"

So God waits? You think God is constrained by time? You know He created it right?

I'm not trying to be rude here but I'm not sure we are even talking about the same God here, and to be honest I'm not sure how to continue this conversation if you're just going to deny reality and scripture while accusing me of what you're blatantly doing. It's like trying to have a real conversation with a radical democrat in good faith that they'll be rational. When you just "make up" your argument it's a waste of everybody's time and I don't see the point unless you come with something more grounded in truth next go round. If not then have a great day.

Again, what has God declared from the beginning? The end. We can now read all about the end in the book of Revelation. God has not declared all things in between. God allows man to make choices. God has not declared those choices.

I agree, God's counsel shall stand. Everything God has declared in his word shall stand, and there's nothing man can do about God's counsel. However, everything that is happening around us is not God's counsel. God is working in and through all things to make sure his counsel stands.

 

[John146]

God claims He does not change. I just agree with God. As far as whether that's deep or logical, I haven't considered past...is it true? The immutability of God is centered in His character, not His actions. Thus, God doesn't always have to act the same way, merely act always within His nature.

I agree, so when God does not destroy Nineveh, after he stated he would, he is just acting within his character. God did change his course of direction toward those people.

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

God did not lie. God simply changed his mind of what he was going to do with them.

 

[posthuman]

Exhaustive foreknowledge is one explanation for the fulfilment of prophecy, but is not the only explanation possible. Hence, exhaustive foreknowledge, though a popular explanation, has not been proven to be the explanation.

this depends on the prophecy.

He says He will do all His will - and does it. some prophecy concerns Him doing His will. scripture explicitly attests to this.

other prophecies such as 'in the last days scoffers will come' are not God doing His will but informing us about the free-will thoughts and deeds of certain people far ahead of them occurring. not because it is God bringing it about but because it is so.

His foreknowledge alone is not causation, as i have been explaining to you concerning your supposed 'sin problem' with His omniscience. knowing sin will exist does not make Him the author of sin.

 

[Cameron143]

I agree, so when God does not destroy Nineveh, after he stated he would, he is just acting within his character. God did change his course of direction toward those people.

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

God did not lie. God simply changed his mind of what he was going to do with them.

I would argue that God changed their minds...and hearts. Nineveh was a city of heathens who had no regard for the God of Israel. Within 40 days, to the person, they humbled themselves before Him. What caused this? Human reason? Activity of God?