How can one learn?

[Rainrider]

Off script
There are times I wish I chould post a book on here, this is one of them. As we should know there is more on salvation than just what we find when do a word study on it. As I don't wish to bring any hard ship on the host of this sight, I am going to do my best to keep this short. You know bandwidth must be keep with in their limits for any site.
As I have said before, the word salvation is used by a little twice in the O.T. as it is in the N.T. has it change in meaning, or intent? Let's look and see.
Gen 49:18 I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.
Now there has been some that say salvation here holds a different meaning. Yet salvation is, was, and will remain ones deliverance from sin. As we know, or should Egypt in many cases should be seen as a symbol of sin. (We can get into that at a latter date if it seems we must.) So what we have in the above is 2 fold. First Dan as we know wasn't a stand up guy. Israel here compares sin son to a serpent. A symbol we all understand. Israel here is waiting for the day HaShem leads Dan to salvation. Some may say he was looking forward to going back to the promised land, yet there are just as many that see this as asking for Dan to find HaShem, and follow after Him.
1Sa 2:1And Hannah prayed, and said, My heart rejoiceth in the LORD, mine horn is exalted in the LORD: my mouth is enlarged over mine enemies; because I rejoice in thy salvation.
I think this speaks for it's self. Hannah is giving thanks for the salvation gifted from HaShem.
Psa 13:5But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation.
Salvation here is placed with the mercy of HaShem. Is that not also what we today understand salvation to be? is His grace not showing us mercy?
Now I get it, for more than 400 years it has been said that in O.T. times sin was not reamoved just covered by the blood of the sin offering. yet when we today make the claim that our sin has been removed from us, as far from us as the east is from the west, ( think on that), I do agree with that. yet I also know for a fact that idea isn't new. It comes not from the N.T. rather from,
Psa 103:12As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
So if we do understand that our sins are removed for us today in that manner, why do we insist that it was not possible for the nation of Israel in O.T. times? Does not salvation do this for us today? If so, then what we now see is that it also did for the people then. The best part, it was free for the asking. Faith is what was needed, not sacrifice.
Luk 2:30For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
As many teach salvation is only open to us because of the cross, (giveing the cross way more power that it holds) yet here we find that Simeon had found, or seen the salvation of HaShem, before Yeshua sacrificed Himself, it stands to reason that salvation was a part of what HaShem had been doing for much longer than some wish to think.
2Co 7:10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
If you are wise, and wish to see salvation at work in the O.T. you will find that when most from that time looked for salvation, it was when they had hit rock bottom. Some sorrow had brought them to seek forgiveness of HaShem. So again we find HaShem hasn't changed how true salvation was found, or given.
In my next off script we will look at being filled with the spirit. As most today think that wasn't a thing in the O.T.

 

[Rainrider]

It says the law is not made void by faith, but establishes it. So what does it mean that the law is not made void? Can others things void the law? What does it mean to establish the law? In what ways does faith establish the law?

The law is valid, and can't be made void by any act of man. When we truly give ourselves over to HaShem, out of love for Him, we turn away from our sinful nature. In doing so we follow His law, this establishes his law in our hearts and minds. Don't get me wrong, we are human, and so we do at times sin. If we seeek forgiveness of said sin, we are forgiven. If not, then we will answer for that when we stand in judgement.

 

[Rainrider]

28 (More/Other) Things That God Wants You To Pray For source

1) Our enemies and those who persecute us (Matthew 5:44)

2) God's honor, God’s will and God’s Kingdom (Matthew 6:9-10, 33)

3) Daily bread, provision (Matthew 6:11, Luke 11:3, 3John 1:2)

4) Forgiveness of sin (Matthew 6:12, 1 John 1:9) including the sins of others (Luke 23:34, 1 John 5:16)

5) Escape from hard testing, affliction and temptation (Matthew 6:13, 24:20, 26:41 James 5:13)

6) The blessing of little children (Matthew 19:13)

7) Healing (James 5:14-16, Acts 9:40, 28:18)

8) Deliverance from evil spirits (Matthew 17:21, Mark 9:29)

9) Acts of power that will glorify God (James 5:16-18)

10) Wisdom (James 1:5-8)

11) For Christians to be filled with God’s love (John 17:26, Ephesians 3:14-21)

12) For believers to receive spiritual strength in the inner man (Ephesians 3:14-21, Colossians 1:9-12)

13) Spiritual understanding , revelation, knowledge of Christ (Ephesians 1:15-20, Philippians 1:9-11)

14) Knowledge of the will of God (Colossians 1:9-11, Philemon 1:4-6)

15) Impartation of the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13, Acts 8:15, 9:17) and spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 14:13)

16) The sanctification of believers (John 17:17-19)

17) That believers will 'do no evil' (2 Corinthians 13:7)

18) The perfection of believers (2 Corinthians 13:9, Colossians 4:12)

19) Fulfillment of the spiritual calling on a Church, with power (2 Thessalonians 1:11,12)

20) The unity of believers (John 17:20-23)

21) Opportunities for gospel ministry (Romans 1:10, Colossians 4:2-4, 2 Thessalonians 3:1)

22) Boldness in ministry (Acts 4:24-31, Ephesians 6:19)

23) Laborers for the Harvest (Matthew 9:38, Luke 10;2)

24) The selection of leaders to be sent out (Luke 6:12,13; Acts 13:1-4, 14:23)

25) Deliverance of God’s servants from danger (Acts 12:5, Romans 15:30,31; 2 Thessalonians 3:2)

26) The salvation of certain ethnic groups – such as the Jews (Romans 10:1)

27) The salvation of leaders and those in authority (1 Timothy 2:1-4)

28) What we need in order to glorify the Lord: Any ‘good thing’ / in Jesus’ Name / in accordance with
God’s will (Matthew 7:11, 21:21,22; Mark 11:24, John 14:13,14; 15;7,16; 16:23,24, 1 John 3:22, 5:14,15)

I should have added this sorry I didn't. We all need someone to point out when we seem to make a mistake. One reason I so miss the love of my life. Vicky never me get by with selling scripture short, I do give thanks to HaShem for you doing the same. may you always be so bold, and may HaShem bless you beyond your wildest dreams for what you do.

 

[Cameron143]

The law is valid, and can't be made void by any act of man. When we truly give ourselves over to HaShem, out of love for Him, we turn away from our sinful nature. In doing so we follow His law, this establishes his law in our hearts and minds. Don't get me wrong, we are human, and so we do at times sin. If we seeek forgiveness of said sin, we are forgiven. If not, then we will answer for that when we stand in judgement.

Thanks for replying. But you only answered 1 aspect of the multiple questions I posed and led me into more questions. So faith, according to you, validates the law. In what way? The subject isn't the law, but what it means that faith establishes it. What is meant by faith establishing the law and what does it entail?
I agree that only God can void the law. Whether He has or not, or in what ways He may or may not have done so should be explored. But lacking common understanding of the terms used in Romans 3:31 and their significance, we haven't laid the foundation necessary to come to a proper understanding.

 

[posthuman]

You said in post #296
The Law is one law; not parts with various jots and tittles deleted. see James 2:10
Here you make clear that the law doesn't have any part removed. Yet you follow that with the idea that some of it has been removed.

i didn't say parts of the Law are removed.

i pointed out that parts of it cannot be fulfilled, showing that any people under it are in violation of it.

and i showed you many scriptures showing that the believer in Christ is not under the Law.

 

[posthuman]

You said in post #296
The Law is one law; not parts with various jots and tittles deleted. see James 2:10
Here you make clear that the law doesn't have any part removed. Yet you follow that with the idea that some of it has been removed. You can't have it both ways. As you do this a lot, and I have only used a small percent of them to try and make it clear, I will say I am done with even trying to make any sense of what you say. Now I will repeat myself one last time. I know I may not have everything right. NOONE can say that when being 100% honest. However I know that you have lost all cedablilty in my mind. As such, there is no way you can ever teach me anything, and I do feel any that may listen to, and follow your teachings. They will find that they also don't really understand the Word. With that I am done. say what you wish, HaShem knows my heart, and I am sure He will see my reasoning as sound.

ok you are simply not following the argument.

i pointed out that the Law cannot be separated into jots and tittles that can be deleted and jots and tittles that cannot - the Law is one Law.

and then i pointed out that, for example, the Law is extremely clear that physical circumcision is required of any man under the Law, and the gospel is extremely clear that physical circumcision is not required for the believer in Christ.

the only possible conclusions from these two facts about circumcision are that either the Law is partially deleted or that the Christian is not under the Law.
because the Law cannot be partially deleted, it is conclusive proof that the Christian is not under the Law.


iirc you went off on some miaguided rabbit trail about some of the Law not being applicable to everyone, like women not needing to be circumcised, and concluded with a very bad, practically blasphemous interpretation of Jeremiah, but maybe now that i have written in a more straightforward way you can face the Truth and we can begin an actual discussion...?

i believe in the salvation brought by the Messiah.
therefore i am not under Moses.

 

[Rainrider]

i didn't say parts of the Law are removed.

i pointed out that parts of it cannot be fulfilled, showing that any people under it are in violation of it.

and i showed you many scriptures showing that the believer in Christ is not under the Law.

My post number 610
As I noted many of your post that do stand in conflict with pthers in post#345, I am going to once more show this with just 2 post.
You said in post #296
The Law is one law; not parts with various jots and tittles deleted. see James 2:10
Then in post #311 you said,
from this it is clear that the Law wasn't completely passed away yet by the time of the writing of Hebrews, which is before 70AD, around 50-60
As you can see with your own eyes, you did say not all of the law had passed away YET. Clearly meaning parts of it had. So please try to white wash it. Again I am done with you. I see no reason to wast time with a person that wishes to try and say one thing only to say the complete opposite just 15 post later. Please note not all 15 post between them are yours.
One more time, I may have somethings to learn, however they will never come from a person that sees that kind of action as ok.

 

[posthuman]

My post number 610
As I noted many of your post that do stand in conflict with pthers in post#345, I am going to once more show this with just 2 post.
You said in post #296
The Law is one law; not parts with various jots and tittles deleted. see James 2:10
Then in post #311 you said,
from this it is clear that the Law wasn't completely passed away yet by the time of the writing of Hebrews, which is before 70AD, around 50-60
As you can see with your own eyes, you did say not all of the law had passed away YET. Clearly meaning parts of it had. So please try to white wash it. Again I am done with you. I see no reason to wast time with a person that wishes to try and say one thing only to say the complete opposite just 15 post later. Please note not all 15 post between them are yours.
One more time, I may have somethings to learn, however they will never come from a person that sees that kind of action as ok.

this is again only your inability to understand what i have said.

Hebrews 8:13​

In that He says, "A new"​

He has made the first obsolete. ​

Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.​

what is becoming obsolete, growing old and ready to vanish away had not vanished away when this was written.

that is neither contradictory to James 2 nor is it in any way changing what i have affirmed from the beginning of this discussion:

the Christian has died and the Law therefore has no jurisdiction over them. see Romans 7.

 

[posthuman]

As you can see with your own eyes, you did say not all of the law had passed away YET. Clearly meaning parts of it had.

that the Law hasn't passed away yet does not mean some parts of it have. that's a non sequitor.

you are being quite silly.

Matthew 5:18 says the Law will not pass away UNTIL...
so do you accuse Christ the same way you accuse me?
or are you double minded on this topic?

 

[Rainrider]

Thanks for replying. But you only answered 1 aspect of the multiple questions I posed and led me into more questions. So faith, according to you, validates the law. In what way? The subject isn't the law, but what it means that faith establishes it. What is meant by faith establishing the law and what does it entail?
I agree that only God can void the law. Whether He has or not, or in what ways He may or may not have done so should be explored. But lacking common understanding of the terms used in Romans 3:31 and their significance, we haven't laid the foundation necessary to come to a proper understanding.

I have answered this 4 times and removed it. Sorry, I am looking for a way to say the same thing in better way. Trust me it has nothing to do with you.
When a person follows any law or order, they give that law, order, mandate, authority. In the case of an order, as we seen in New Mexico not long ago, the people can also make said order invalid. If we comply we validate it, if they don't, like in New Mexico, they make said order invalid. had the people in New Mexico followed said order, they would have bowed to an order that had not authority, and given their consent, would have established it, as though it was law.
As to what it means to establish the Law by faith. Paul as he seems to do a lot, was trying to look at what may come up. Knowing that some may think the law has been removed due to faith, as we see more and more in many church doctrines. However, Paul knowing that it takes faith to follow the law, simply jumped in and let them know, before they asked, that we don't abolish the law by our faith. Rather it is by our faith that we establish it in our lives.
If a person tells you they are a follower of Yeshua, there are things they do and say that can confirm this, that being they walk in the ways the Torah. Even if said person ells you it is no apples to them. This establishes the law, by their faith, and action.
Without faith, one may show that they wish to invalidate the law, by not following it.
I pray this makes it clearer. Though it does kind of follow the same train of thought. So let me know.
Now to lay the foundation. It is clear that the wording is intended to fit with the whole chapter, as Paul does this nicely. Paul lays a lot on the table. Yet he ends by making sure we understand that the Law is established in us, when we willing follow it.

 

[Rainrider]

that the Law hasn't passed away yet does not mean some parts of it have. that's a non sequitor.

you are being quite silly.

Matthew 5:18 says the Law will not pass away UNTIL...
so do you accuse Christ the same way you accuse me?
or are you double minded on this topic?

As you wish. It is clear your intent was show that

that the Law hasn't passed away yet does not mean some parts of it have. that's a non sequitor.

you are being quite silly.

Matthew 5:18 says the Law will not pass away UNTIL...
so do you accuse Christ the same way you accuse me?
or are you double minded on this topic?

the Law wasn't completely passed away yet. Your words not mine. By saying the wasn't completely passed away you are saying some parts have. It would take a lot of mental gymnastics to think other wise.
you really like to try and place your own short comings on other don't you.
Oh this will be last reply to you, until you say something that makes sense. Try to convince me you didn't say something after it was place in front of you isn't becoming, and as I made clear, saying one thing, then saying the exact opposite, kills ones credibility faster than anything. Why do you think people don't trust politicians?

 

[Rainrider]

that the Law hasn't passed away yet does not mean some parts of it have. that's a non sequitor.

you are being quite silly.

Matthew 5:18 says the Law will not pass away UNTIL...
so do you accuse Christ the same way you accuse me?
or are you double minded on this topic?

As for Yeshua, He never said one thing then changed it, then tried to convince everyone he never did that.

 

[Rainrider]

Off script
It has been said many times, (not in this post) that the Spirit, Holy Spirit, or Spirit of HaShem was not given to O.T. people. that it only became a thing after Pentecost. So let's look and see if that is true or not.
Gen 41:38And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?
As we know Joseph was loaned the gift of foresight, interpretation of dreams, and wisdom. All of this as he made clear were of HaShem. As we understand today, they come to us from the Spirit of HaShem.
Exo 31:3And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
So HaShem filled them with His Spirit in order to get a job done.
1Sa 10:6And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
Is this not what many teach? when we turn our lives over to Him, He gives us His Spirit, and we become a new man.
Mic 3:8But truly I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.
Act 2:4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
As we can see the act of being filled with the Spirit remains the same. So is it that so many can't see this? Or is that they have removed themselves from the truth in the Word to the point they have simply over looked it? Yet again we see that HaShem has not changed even in this.
Next time on Off script, we will be looking at the Law. Keep in mind, as it clear that some wish to pass themselves off as all knowing, yet hold so little understanding of a simple concept like this. There will be about 4 off script post on this topic. We will build our house on bed rock, not sand.
I do hope you are all both enjoing this, as well as maybe learning something you didn't know.

 

[posthuman]

By saying the wasn't completely passed away you are saying some parts have.

non sequitor.

 

[gb9]

As for Yeshua, He never said one thing then changed it, then tried to convince everyone he never did that.

" you have heard it said..., but I say to you...."

Jesus.

 

[Cameron143]

I have answered this 4 times and removed it. Sorry, I am looking for a way to say the same thing in better way. Trust me it has nothing to do with you.
When a person follows any law or order, they give that law, order, mandate, authority. In the case of an order, as we seen in New Mexico not long ago, the people can also make said order invalid. If we comply we validate it, if they don't, like in New Mexico, they make said order invalid. had the people in New Mexico followed said order, they would have bowed to an order that had not authority, and given their consent, would have established it, as though it was law.
As to what it means to establish the Law by faith. Paul as he seems to do a lot, was trying to look at what may come up. Knowing that some may think the law has been removed due to faith, as we see more and more in many church doctrines. However, Paul knowing that it takes faith to follow the law, simply jumped in and let them know, before they asked, that we don't abolish the law by our faith. Rather it is by our faith that we establish it in our lives.
If a person tells you they are a follower of Yeshua, there are things they do and say that can confirm this, that being they walk in the ways the Torah. Even if said person ells you it is no apples to them. This establishes the law, by their faith, and action.
Without faith, one may show that they wish to invalidate the law, by not following it.
I pray this makes it clearer. Though it does kind of follow the same train of thought. So let me know.
Now to lay the foundation. It is clear that the wording is intended to fit with the whole chapter, as Paul does this nicely. Paul lays a lot on the table. Yet he ends by making sure we understand that the Law is established in us, when we willing follow it.

Ok. Thanks. I follow your logic. Although I don't think one can invalidate God's laws.

So now, what is entailed in the law being established? What happens or is true of the law and us because faith has established the law?

 

[Rainrider]

" you have heard it said..., but I say to you...."

Jesus.

He knows us, and the name we use. So that really isn't a point.

 

[Rainrider]

Ok. Thanks. I follow your logic. Although I don't think one can invalidate God's laws.

So now, what is entailed in the law being established? What happens or is true of the law and us because faith has established the law?

As we know the new covenant places the law in our hearts and minds. As we grow, and learn. We also see change in both places as well. It becomes the dominant part of our of our DNA.
All we need do, is try and learn. The more we learn, the closer to HaShem we become. That leads to getting to really know Him. How do we go about this? Study His profile, the Torah. His laws, are for our benifit.

 

[posthuman]

By saying the wasn't completely passed away you are saying some parts have. It would take a lot of mental gymnastics to think other wise.

Not at all.

Hebrews 1:10-11​

He also says, "In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment."​

​

in the same book that speaks of the Sinai covenant with the nation of Israel and its law growing obsolete, wearing out and ready to pass away, it is also written that the foundations of the earth and the heavens will wear out.

Does that mean the heavens and the earth are partially passed away? no.

You are just looking for excuses to dismiss me because you cannot argue with scripture that says the Christian is not under the Law of the Sinai covenant with the nation Israel.

when I brought up Hebrews 8:13 it was actually in support of you, because some say the Law passed away at the cross. Hebrews 8, written decades later, makes it clear that the Law wasn't removed by that time. that at the very least, it remained, though becoming obsolete and ready to pass away.

contrary to what you are saying, Hebrews 8 does not contradict James 2.


you are being silly.

 

[Cameron143]

As we know the new covenant places the law in our hearts and minds. As we grow, and learn. We also see change in both places as well. It becomes the dominant part of our of our DNA.
All we need do, is try and learn. The more we learn, the closer to HaShem we become. That leads to getting to really know Him. How do we go about this? Study His profile, the Torah. His laws, are for our benifit.

What do you mean it becomes the dominant part of our DNA?
Why is the focus on the law? Why isn't the focus Christ?