Bible verses that help us understand the rapture
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One thing is absolutely certain if you look at a variety of Bible teachers teaching on the end times and that is that no one knows for sure. They even make a joke about this saying that the 30 minutes of silence recorded in Revelation is giving all the Bible teachers a chance to adjust their timelines. So at the very least no one should be dogmatic about their teaching.
For example, I believe the opening of the seven seals took place shortly after Jesus rose from the dead. I know that is not a common teaching nor is it the most popular teaching, so if someone can satisfactorily answer a few questions I have then fine, I'll reconsider.
1. Revelation says that John saw a lamb as having just been slain come and take the scroll and open it. Doesn't that indicate that Jesus opened this scroll right after rising from the dead? Why would you think this means it happens 2,000 years later?
2. In Ephesians Paul talks about the mystery which was hidden from the ages but has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets. This mystery reveals that we are joint heirs with Jesus. The scroll that Jesus opens in Revelation is the title deed to the earth. So explain how there are two different mysteries that no one was worthy to open until Jesus rose from the dead, both of which reveal that we are joint heirs with Jesus?
3. In Matthew Jesus said "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Isn't this what the scroll that Jesus' opened in Revelation gave Him? If not then what did He get from that scroll that He didn't have in Matthew 28?
4. Galatians and James and Acts all reveal that from the time the gospel went forth people were pushing "another gospel" which wasn't another, but rather a perversion of the gospel. Isn't this what the first seal being opened reveals? So if it is a horse race between the gospel of Jesus Christ and Satan's perversion of the gospel, how can we say it doesn't start until the end of the church age? What about Islam?
5. Many say that the first seal is a revelation of the Antichrist, but if that seal reveals the mysteries of the Antichrist wouldn't that include the number of his name? Why is that revealed in Revelation if the seal isn't opened until 2,000 years later?
6. We have had wars, plagues, famines and christians martyred for the entire 2,000 years of the church age, why do we say that these seals only refer to the last seven years of the age?
7. When Jesus opens the scroll there are 24 elders in heaven, we understand that those are men, and so the rapture must have taken place. Fine, when Jesus rose from the dead there were others who were raised with Him. We are only told that they were seen in Jerusalem, so we can assume that they were buried in Jerusalem and represent the elders from the OT.
8. We see the Lampstand in heaven when Jesus opens the scroll and we know the Lampstand is the church. OK, but Paul said that we were seated together with Christ in the heavenlies. Again, the mystery that was revealed in Ephesians refers to this scroll. Revelation is a conclusion to the Bible, it doesn't introduce new information, it wraps up all the information already revealed in the Bible.
I have more questions, but no doubt if someone has really good and clear answers to these questions and not just gobbledegook then those answers may answer my other questions.
For example, I believe the opening of the seven seals took place shortly after Jesus rose from the dead. I know that is not a common teaching nor is it the most popular teaching, so if someone can satisfactorily answer a few questions I have then fine, I'll reconsider.
1. Revelation says that John saw a lamb as having just been slain come and take the scroll and open it. Doesn't that indicate that Jesus opened this scroll right after rising from the dead? Why would you think this means it happens 2,000 years later?
2. In Ephesians Paul talks about the mystery which was hidden from the ages but has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets. This mystery reveals that we are joint heirs with Jesus. The scroll that Jesus opens in Revelation is the title deed to the earth. So explain how there are two different mysteries that no one was worthy to open until Jesus rose from the dead, both of which reveal that we are joint heirs with Jesus?
3. In Matthew Jesus said "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Isn't this what the scroll that Jesus' opened in Revelation gave Him? If not then what did He get from that scroll that He didn't have in Matthew 28?
4. Galatians and James and Acts all reveal that from the time the gospel went forth people were pushing "another gospel" which wasn't another, but rather a perversion of the gospel. Isn't this what the first seal being opened reveals? So if it is a horse race between the gospel of Jesus Christ and Satan's perversion of the gospel, how can we say it doesn't start until the end of the church age? What about Islam?
5. Many say that the first seal is a revelation of the Antichrist, but if that seal reveals the mysteries of the Antichrist wouldn't that include the number of his name? Why is that revealed in Revelation if the seal isn't opened until 2,000 years later?
6. We have had wars, plagues, famines and christians martyred for the entire 2,000 years of the church age, why do we say that these seals only refer to the last seven years of the age?
7. When Jesus opens the scroll there are 24 elders in heaven, we understand that those are men, and so the rapture must have taken place. Fine, when Jesus rose from the dead there were others who were raised with Him. We are only told that they were seen in Jerusalem, so we can assume that they were buried in Jerusalem and represent the elders from the OT.
8. We see the Lampstand in heaven when Jesus opens the scroll and we know the Lampstand is the church. OK, but Paul said that we were seated together with Christ in the heavenlies. Again, the mystery that was revealed in Ephesians refers to this scroll. Revelation is a conclusion to the Bible, it doesn't introduce new information, it wraps up all the information already revealed in the Bible.
I have more questions, but no doubt if someone has really good and clear answers to these questions and not just gobbledegook then those answers may answer my other questions.
Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
A couple of things to notice. First, how is it that everyone from the least to the greatest knows that this is from the Lamb? It can't simply be an earthquake, or a meteor. Something must happen that is uniquely tied to Jesus Christ the Lamb of God. Can't be the Antichrist, Islam has a Mahdi and Judaism is still expecting the Messiah. Some event unique to Christians must have taken place, I think that event is the rapture.
Also, if you notice, when Jesus rose from the dead there was an earthquake, and when the graves of the dead were opened there was an earthquake. So a great earthquake would be expected to take place at the time of the rapture.
Also, this description is very similar to Revelation 12 with the stars of heaven falling to earth, and in that chapter we see the manchild being caught up to heaven.
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
A couple of things to notice. First, how is it that everyone from the least to the greatest knows that this is from the Lamb? It can't simply be an earthquake, or a meteor. Something must happen that is uniquely tied to Jesus Christ the Lamb of God. Can't be the Antichrist, Islam has a Mahdi and Judaism is still expecting the Messiah. Some event unique to Christians must have taken place, I think that event is the rapture.
Also, if you notice, when Jesus rose from the dead there was an earthquake, and when the graves of the dead were opened there was an earthquake. So a great earthquake would be expected to take place at the time of the rapture.
Also, this description is very similar to Revelation 12 with the stars of heaven falling to earth, and in that chapter we see the manchild being caught up to heaven.
All it says is the living will be raptured/brought up to meet others who are in the clouds. A few verses earlier it says the dead are brought there with Christ, which means they aren't part of the rapture. The dead are already gathered together in heaven. The rapture specifically is to gather together the living, who aren't together but spread out all over the Earth. Only the living need to be gathered together.
The resurrection is about the dead coming back to life and the rapture is moving people from one place to another. By definition, these are two separate events.
Only the living are moved from where they are to the clouds. The dead are already gathered together in heaven and will arrive in the clouds by following Christ downward.
Only the living are moved from where they are to the clouds. The dead are already gathered together in heaven and will arrive in the clouds by following Christ downward.
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Arguing for the sake benefits no one. But since you want the last word, go for it. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
"TOGETHER WITH THEM" proves that you are wrong. But just keep on going in your mistaken idea..
"TOGETHER WITH THEM" proves that you are wrong. But just keep on going in your mistaken idea..
I see where ewq1938 getting his understanding.
1 Thess 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
Most people believe because of this scripture when a christian dies they go to heaven above and not paradise.
IMO this verse was not translated properly and should have said " God will bring up with him" meaning a resurrection.
But for most only adds to the smoke
1 Thess 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
Most people believe because of this scripture when a christian dies they go to heaven above and not paradise.
IMO this verse was not translated properly and should have said " God will bring up with him" meaning a resurrection.
But for most only adds to the smoke
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As was posted, Jesus will bring the dead with him so they are not raptured. That means YOU are the one misreading the other verse.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This is not saying to be caught up with other people and both groups go to the clouds. It's saying people will be caught up to be with those already in the clouds. That's why it says the raptured saints are meeting "them" not "him" because Christ brings the dead with him, Rev 4:14. Verse 14 proves the dead arrive at the clouds in a separate and different event.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This is not saying to be caught up with other people and both groups go to the clouds. It's saying people will be caught up to be with those already in the clouds. That's why it says the raptured saints are meeting "them" not "him" because Christ brings the dead with him, Rev 4:14. Verse 14 proves the dead arrive at the clouds in a separate and different event.
We have a bunch of prophecies concerning Israel and a variety of wars:
Psalm 83:2 For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head. 3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones. 4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance. 5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee: 6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes; 7 Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre; 8 Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah.
This refers to the countries we see right now, you have the Palestinians in Gaza, West bank, Jordanians, Hezbollah and Lebanon, and Syria. Ishmaelites refer to Arabs, and Hagarenes refer to Hagar's family from Egypt. Moab, Ammon both live in Jordan now. Amalek refers to Hamas and Philistines make up the Palestinians. Edom refers to Jordanians and those associated with the Rothschilds (Red shields), they call themselves Jews and are not. Inhabitants of Tyre refer to Hezbollah and Assur refers to Syria.
Jeremiah 49:34 The word of the Lord that came to Jeremiah the prophet against Elam in the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah, saying, 35 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I will break the bow of Elam, the chief of their might.
The bow of Elam refers to the missiles on the west coast of Iran.
Isaiah 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap. 2 The cities of Aroer are forsaken: they shall be for flocks, which shall lie down, and none shall make them afraid. 3 The fortress also shall cease from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the Lord of hosts. 4 And in that day it shall come to pass, that the glory of Jacob shall be made thin, and the fatness of his flesh shall wax lean.
Damascus is a major city in Syria, the oldest city that has been continuously inhabited on earth. It will be a ruinous heap, similar to Methusaleh dying being a sign to get into the ark for Noah. The cities of Aroer are in Gaza, that will be forsaken. Ephraim is a word used for the northern tribes of Israel and for the youngest son of Joseph, I believe this refers to the US which is where 50% of the world's Jews live. We are a superpower, but when this happens the US will cease to be a superpower. The glory of Jacob refers to the US and Israel being the richest nations on earth, they shall become thin, with famine, the collapse of the dollar, and their collapse as a superpower.
Ezekiel 38:1 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: 4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: 5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: 6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
These countries refer to Russia, all the Stan nations like Pakistan and Afghanistan, as well as Turkey, Iran, Ethiopia and Libya. Gomer probably refers to Germany. I believe this refers to all these nations descending on Israel because they have discovered oil (the formation will look like a fish hook). This takes place after the US is destroyed as a superpower, Israel will be left without any allies.
7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them. 8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. 9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. 10 Thus saith the Lord God; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought: 11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, 12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land. 13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?
Tarshish refers to the UK. Sheba to Yemen and Dedan to Saudi Arabia. Young lion refers to the US. I once visited Mexico and they all have bars on the windows of the homes. I lived in Taiwan and again, everyone has bars on all the windows. The US is an unwalled city, the US is the place that is inhabited by people from out of all the nations. Israel is a walled city and it is doubtful that will change any time soon. When the US is destroyed as a superpower many countries will come to take spoil. Already we have been filled with over 8 million illegal aliens from all over the world, military aged men who we think are here to take spoil once the war breaks out. Saudi Arabia is going to work with BRICS to replace the US dollar.
I believe this is the order we might see this in, though Damascus might be destroyed before Elam.
1. Damascus is reduced to a ruinous heap.
2. As a result there is a massive attack on the US and on Israel.
3. The bow of Elam is destroyed, but the US as a superpower is also wiped out. This happens at the time of the rapture.
4. Those left behind are in abject poverty and famine. Gaza is abandoned.
5. With the US destroyed a large group of nations assemble themselves against Israel because they have discovered a massive oil formation.
6. Other nations look to spoil the US after the cataclysm that hits the US.
This is where we are in the seven year tribulation leading ultimately to Armageddon.
Psalm 83:2 For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head. 3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones. 4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance. 5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee: 6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes; 7 Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre; 8 Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah.
This refers to the countries we see right now, you have the Palestinians in Gaza, West bank, Jordanians, Hezbollah and Lebanon, and Syria. Ishmaelites refer to Arabs, and Hagarenes refer to Hagar's family from Egypt. Moab, Ammon both live in Jordan now. Amalek refers to Hamas and Philistines make up the Palestinians. Edom refers to Jordanians and those associated with the Rothschilds (Red shields), they call themselves Jews and are not. Inhabitants of Tyre refer to Hezbollah and Assur refers to Syria.
Jeremiah 49:34 The word of the Lord that came to Jeremiah the prophet against Elam in the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah, saying, 35 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I will break the bow of Elam, the chief of their might.
The bow of Elam refers to the missiles on the west coast of Iran.
Isaiah 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap. 2 The cities of Aroer are forsaken: they shall be for flocks, which shall lie down, and none shall make them afraid. 3 The fortress also shall cease from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the Lord of hosts. 4 And in that day it shall come to pass, that the glory of Jacob shall be made thin, and the fatness of his flesh shall wax lean.
Damascus is a major city in Syria, the oldest city that has been continuously inhabited on earth. It will be a ruinous heap, similar to Methusaleh dying being a sign to get into the ark for Noah. The cities of Aroer are in Gaza, that will be forsaken. Ephraim is a word used for the northern tribes of Israel and for the youngest son of Joseph, I believe this refers to the US which is where 50% of the world's Jews live. We are a superpower, but when this happens the US will cease to be a superpower. The glory of Jacob refers to the US and Israel being the richest nations on earth, they shall become thin, with famine, the collapse of the dollar, and their collapse as a superpower.
Ezekiel 38:1 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: 4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: 5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: 6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
These countries refer to Russia, all the Stan nations like Pakistan and Afghanistan, as well as Turkey, Iran, Ethiopia and Libya. Gomer probably refers to Germany. I believe this refers to all these nations descending on Israel because they have discovered oil (the formation will look like a fish hook). This takes place after the US is destroyed as a superpower, Israel will be left without any allies.
7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them. 8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. 9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. 10 Thus saith the Lord God; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought: 11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, 12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land. 13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?
Tarshish refers to the UK. Sheba to Yemen and Dedan to Saudi Arabia. Young lion refers to the US. I once visited Mexico and they all have bars on the windows of the homes. I lived in Taiwan and again, everyone has bars on all the windows. The US is an unwalled city, the US is the place that is inhabited by people from out of all the nations. Israel is a walled city and it is doubtful that will change any time soon. When the US is destroyed as a superpower many countries will come to take spoil. Already we have been filled with over 8 million illegal aliens from all over the world, military aged men who we think are here to take spoil once the war breaks out. Saudi Arabia is going to work with BRICS to replace the US dollar.
I believe this is the order we might see this in, though Damascus might be destroyed before Elam.
1. Damascus is reduced to a ruinous heap.
2. As a result there is a massive attack on the US and on Israel.
3. The bow of Elam is destroyed, but the US as a superpower is also wiped out. This happens at the time of the rapture.
4. Those left behind are in abject poverty and famine. Gaza is abandoned.
5. With the US destroyed a large group of nations assemble themselves against Israel because they have discovered a massive oil formation.
6. Other nations look to spoil the US after the cataclysm that hits the US.
This is where we are in the seven year tribulation leading ultimately to Armageddon.