Works Complete Faith?

[romans113336]

I truly don’t believe that predestination is tangential to the topic. Honestly, do you think that a predestined person never sins? And that if he sins, he will lose his salvation?

1. Yes, it is tangential--we're merely saying, as the Scripture states, works complete faith, so that saying "Abraham was justified by faith" is the same as saying "Abraham was justified by walking in faith", and there is no mutual exclusivity between these two statements. What Paul militated against, in Romans, was justification by "works of the Law", which are "weakened through the flesh" (Ro 8:3), thus called "the flesh" (Gal 3:3).
2. I do not claim to have a satisfactory understanding of election and predestination, so I would rather not make so many comments on that. What I can know is that it cannot mean what you all claim it does, for a few reasons: a) "the elect obtained, the rest were cut off", yet Paul goes about seeking the salvation of the "non-elect" who were cut off, and affirms they can be grafted back in if they do not remain in unbelief, and, also, that those branches which had been grafted in by faith (the "elect") can be cut off for unbelief (as we see occurring with the Galatians--"you are so quickly deserting Him Who calls you... having begun in the spirit... [they were nevertheless] severed from Christ"), and b) as stated, if God "predestined" good works for us to walk in, and every sin "thwarts" that predestination, it is not as "firm" a predestination as you would have it.

 

[Truthnightmare]

I used to have more of a grace of fasting, so I fasted a lot more. I've been going through some issues, including, especially, kidney failure, that have derailed my fasting, so I detest my "carnality" of eating often (ie, daily), with insufficient fasting. I feel that I am drowning sometimes. It's really confusing. Anyway, God is working on me, I just don't want to give the impression I am more than I am. I just remember when I was different, more filled with an intent of Christ-glorifying, though I pray and strive for it, and am disappointed often.

Going through the same, years of partying has caused some issues.

However, there is a certain way to approach God regarding healing. You must be aggressive. Il elaborate in a moment.

. I feel that I am drowning sometimes.

Peter didn’t drown, and in reality he was never close to drowning. He lost focus. Wink

I just don't want to give the impression I am more than I am.

Impression to who…. God knows the heart, therefore there is no reason to worry about Him taking anything the wrong way.

I pray and strive for it, and am disappointed often.

Consider there is no disappointed in the word of God, the word is ashamed. Are you ashamed often?

The instructions given to us is…
Isaiah 1
18 Come now, and let us reason together,
- So go to God and discuss the situation, and when you go…


Hebrews 4
16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1 Peter 5
casting all your cares upon Him, for He careth for you.

Then you must remind Him of his promises,

Isaiah 43:26
Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified

Well Lord, do you remember when you said this?

Exodus 23
And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee

However, we must live off every word that proceeds from God… thus obedience is also required.

James 5:14
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord

There are ways to force the hand of God, but I will leave it there.

 

[romans113336]

Going through the same, years of partying has caused some issues.

However, there is a certain way to approach God regarding healing. You must be aggressive. Il elaborate in a moment.



Peter didn’t drown, and in reality he was never close to drowning. He lost focus. Wink



Impression to who…. God knows the heart, therefore there is no reason to worry about Him taking anything the wrong way.



Consider there is no disappointed in the word of God, the word is ashamed. Are you ashamed often?

The instructions given to us is…
Isaiah 1
18 Come now, and let us reason together,
- So go to God and discuss the situation, and when you go…


Hebrews 4
16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1 Peter 5
casting all your cares upon Him, for He careth for you.

Then you must remind Him of his promises,

Isaiah 43:26
Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified

Well Lord, do you remember when you said this?

Exodus 23
And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee

However, we must live off every word that proceeds from God… thus obedience is also required.

James 5:14
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord

There are ways to force the hand of God, but I will leave it there.

Yes, I feel shame when I do not fast, but when I try, it seems like I'm being told that I am being arrogant. Dialysis destroys my focus and I haven't been able to be in God's manifest presence, where there is "joy unspeakable and full of glory". Then when I try to get there, I hear, "Peace", as if to say "don't try so hard". It's all pretty confusing.
My defense against eating was just to have my mind on God. Then I would forget about it.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Yes, I feel shame when I do not fast, but when I try, it seems like I'm being told that I am being arrogant. Dialysis destroys my focus and I haven't been able to be in God's manifest presence, where there is "joy unspeakable and full of glory". Then when I try to get there, I hear, "Peace", as if to say "don't try so hard". It's all pretty confusing.
My defense against eating was just to have my mind on God. Then I would forget about it.

I understand, but the answer is there.

, I hear, "Peace", as if to say "don't try so hard". It's all pretty confusing.

God is not the author of confusion, but of peace,

 

[romans113336]

I understand, but the answer is there.


God is not the author of confusion, but of peace,

God doesn't author confusion, but, because of our lack of understanding, sometimes, dealing with God can seem confusing.

But again we're off on a tangent, so I'd like to move on.

 

[romans113336]

Going through the same, years of partying has caused some issues.

However, there is a certain way to approach God regarding healing. You must be aggressive. Il elaborate in a moment.



Peter didn’t drown, and in reality he was never close to drowning. He lost focus. Wink



Impression to who…. God knows the heart, therefore there is no reason to worry about Him taking anything the wrong way.



Consider there is no disappointed in the word of God, the word is ashamed. Are you ashamed often?

The instructions given to us is…
Isaiah 1
18 Come now, and let us reason together,
- So go to God and discuss the situation, and when you go…


Hebrews 4
16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1 Peter 5
casting all your cares upon Him, for He careth for you.

Then you must remind Him of his promises,

Isaiah 43:26
Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified

Well Lord, do you remember when you said this?

Exodus 23
And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee

However, we must live off every word that proceeds from God… thus obedience is also required.

James 5:14
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord

There are ways to force the hand of God, but I will leave it there.

I don't know about being aggressive or forcing God--Paul accepted the Lord's response, "No", and explained God is more concerned about developing our character (eg, in his case, the trait of depending on grace) than our physical wellbeing.

Again, though, tangential. I don't want to keep going off on tangents. Too many recently.

 

[Truthnightmare]

I don't know about being aggressive or forcing God--Paul accepted the Lord's response, "No", and explained God is more concerned about our character than our physical wellbeing.

3 John
Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

 

[romans113336]

3 John
Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

Yep, "even as thy soul prospereth"--first things first.

And, again, don't want to get off on a tangent.

 

[selahsays]

Not saying Paul was sinless (even he would only say he wasn't aware he was sinning--his conscience didn't testify against him--but that that alone wasn't conclusive, since he understands, from the OT, there are sins people commit without knowing, and, he concludes, he will be judged not by his conscience, but by God's Word, Christ), but Romans 7, which you have cited, is not "Christian" Paul, but "pre-Christ" Jews (including Paul).

I've addressed this before:

1. Yes, it is tangential--we're merely saying, as the Scripture states, works complete faith, so that saying "Abraham was justified by faith" is the same as saying "Abraham was justified by walking in faith", and there is no mutual exclusivity between these two statements. What Paul militated against, in Romans, was justification by "works of the Law", which are "weakened through the flesh" (Ro 8:3), thus called "the flesh" (Gal 3:3).
2. I do not claim to have a satisfactory understanding of election and predestination, so I would rather not make so many comments on that. What I can know is that it cannot mean what you all claim it does, for a few reasons: a) "the elect obtained, the rest were cut off", yet Paul goes about seeking the salvation of the "non-elect" who were cut off, and affirms they can be grafted back in if they do not remain in unbelief, and, also, that those branches which had been grafted in by faith (the "elect") can be cut off for unbelief (as we see occurring with the Galatians--"you are so quickly deserting Him Who calls you... having begun in the spirit... [they were nevertheless] severed from Christ"), and b) as stated, if God "predestined" good works for us to walk in, and every sin "thwarts" that predestination, it is not as "firm" a predestination as you would have it.

Sorry we can’t agree on much.

 

[romans113336]

Sorry we can’t agree on much.

I thought there were good reasons for my believing the way I do. It's not an arbitrary decision.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

Did the Corinthians have "true faith"? If so, how does your view explain their sinfulness?

They were NOT being led by the Holy Spirit which lead to their sinfulness

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Are you suggesting that Muslims are not entitled to this covering because they are muslims?

Are you suggesting there is salvation by works outside of Christ?

 

[romans113336]

Ro 7 is only slightly tangential, because I've found the other side will often point to it as if it was descriptive of normal Christian life, which is not only contrary to the immediate context, but also contradicts the premise of "Works Complete Faith". Plus I've already studied it, so it's not any sweat off my brow to discuss it and quickly straighten anyone out on it.

 

[romans113336]

I don’t think it does. Look at what James said.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?
- So we see already that having faith does not equal works.

15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

If you come to my door and ask for bread, and I open the door and tell you “I believe in Jesus, then shit the door…. My faith has produced no works.



1 Peter 4:8 King James Version (KJV)
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

Are you suggesting that Muslims are not entitled to this covering because they are muslims?

Romans 2.14-16, “For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

1. Islam is only culturally considered "a faith", but, since they, by definition, do not believe God, Who testifies about His Son, we should say they have "an unbelief" whereby they blaspheme God as "liar" (1 Jn 5:10).

2. Romans 2 refers to believing Gentiles, not unsaved Gentiles--Paul is citing them as men who will be repaid eternal life for righteousness--because the Jewish believers were sneering at them, looking down on them, but Paul is saying, "Judgment will evaluate works, not ethnicity, so what are you going to do when those Gentiles you despise are justified for righteousness and you're condemned for hypocrisy?"

 

[Locoponydirtman]

No one outside of Christ is saved, not by their oen hand of works or by any other method. Salvation is through Christ alone.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I thought there were good reasons for my believing the way I do. It's not an arbitrary decision.

Every person who holds to false belief would say the same thing. But that does not represent reality and Bible truth.

 

[Mem]

Martha Martha

Greeting…
You stated…


I see it in the opposite….
Faith doesn’t produce works… Anyone can lay on the couch and claim they believe in Jesus, and maybe they do. But this only faith.

Now if I see a person out there feeding the homeless, visiting widows, I know they believe in Jesus. And this person has faith and works, not just couch faith.

There are 2 things we mush have, faith and works.
If you show me your faith, I will then need to see your works.
But… If you show me your works, I have seen your faith.

James 2
You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

"...only one thing is necessary. Mary has chosen the good portion, and it will not be taken away from her."

 

[romans113336]

Every person who holds to false belief would say the same thing. But that does not represent reality and Bible truth.

Oh, OK, when you're ready to lay it all out for me, explain the errors I expressed about Ro 7, there, you can go ahead--until then, all you have is an empty statement.

Let me do the same, so you have an idea of what you're doing: "I'm right, you're wrong. I don't actually have to prove it, the mere fact that I've said it makes it so."

Again, what you'll have to do is address the individual claims, one by one, upon which my conclusion is resting, if you want to change my conclusion. Show me the flaws in the reasoning.

 

[romans113336]

Martha Martha


"...only one thing is necessary. Mary has chosen the good portion, and it will not be taken away from her."

I would "react" to this with a "Winner" "react", but, in the context of this conversation--you actually trying to assert a mutual exclusivity between what you cited and what James said--I couldn't.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

No one outside of Christ is saved, not by their oen hand of works or by any other method. Salvation is through Christ alone.

You know, towards the end of his life Billy Graham started teaching that people in other religions can be saved and go to Heaven without going thru Jesus. (there are videos of him saying this you can find on youtube)

In fact it's sad, but more and more preachers are turning ecumenical and are teaching the same thing.

This will be a hallmark of the coming one world religion where they teach all religions lead to Heaven and those that claim Jesus Christ is the only way will be persecuted.