Works Complete Faith?

[selahsays]

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

- John 15:4-5 (KJV)

So then, our good works produce fruit in keeping with those that Christ has prepared for us to do.

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

- Ephesians 2:7-10 (KJV)

 

[romans113336]

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

How is this verse supposed to help your view?
There were offenses that could be committed by Jews that could see them "cut off" from among their people (ie, God's people), and this same dynamic is active under the new covenant (Ro 11:17-23).
What's the offense that causes a believer to be "cut off" under the New Covenant? Unbelief.
This reality, this doctrine, is not welcome or appreciated in your view, because it's "inconvenient", it threatens your view's entire house of cards. I know you won't accept this truth, but I share it for anyone who will.

 

[romans113336]

Greeting…
You stated…


I see it in the opposite….
Faith doesn’t produce works… Anyone can lay on the couch and claim they believe in Jesus, and maybe they do. But this only faith.

Now if I see a person out there feeding the homeless, visiting widows, I know they believe in Jesus. And this person has faith and works, not just couch faith.

There are 2 things we mush have, faith and works.
If you show me your faith, I will then need to see your works.
But… If you show me your works, I have seen your faith.

James 2
You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

James compares the persuasive power of a statement "I have faith" against a walk of faith whose actions shout "I have faith". Obviously, one is more convincing than the other. One therefore glorifies God more than the other. And the entire purpose of Christianity is God getting glory through our good deeds. He's trying to convince them of this to move them to works.

 

[Inquisitor]

I haven't given it much thought.
At this moment, I don't believe in "sinless perfectionism", though Paul says his conscience was clear of any sin, and Peter speaks of those who have "ceased sinning". Just some things one should consider. However, even Apostle John admitted to sinning.

Perhaps it may be worth some more thought. If you draw a line in the sand and say that those who keep sinning, cannot enter heaven. Then you effectively slam shut the doorway to heaven.

Actually, the converse is true. All are unrighteous and sinners, only those that confess their sin will be forgiven.

Anyone who claims to be sinless is simply a liar.

 

[Inquisitor]

I'm wondering...
so I'll take you along with me as I consider...
If a tree bears no fruit at all, even though it is growing beside the river, I wonder that it is not connected to The Root at all, and so will wither to its roots...
And the tree that bears bad fruit, though it is connected to The Root (naturally), it's fruit is bad because it's fruit is of the 'natural' variety, and something is missing...
So, the tree that bears good fruit, is connected to The Root, whether naturally or it is grafted in, and bears good fruit because it is injected with the 'preferred' (gene?), the Spirit, an is so made 'perfect' fruit....

certainly, the spirit by which a work is done determines the degree of its goodness

A solid reply.

The new creation is designed and empowered for good works!

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

One must believe in Jesus first in order to receive the Holy Spirit, the seal. Then we are a new creation and can proceed unto good works. Only the saved can perform good works.

We are always saved by the grace of God.

 

[romans113336]

Perhaps it may be worth some more thought. If you draw a line in the sand and say that those who keep sinning, cannot enter heaven. Then you effectively slam shut the doorway to heaven.

Actually, the converse is true. All are unrighteous and sinners, only those that confess their sin will be forgiven.

Anyone who claims to be sinless is simply a liar.

Actually, the question wasn't about who gets into heaven--and I'd already cited the 1 John 1 stipulation in the reply, so...

 

[romans113336]

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

- John 15:4-5 (KJV)

So then, our good works produce fruit in keeping with those that Christ has prepared for us to do.

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

- Ephesians 2:7-10 (KJV)

So, as the verse says, we are His workmanship, and He is at work in us to will and do for His pleasure, thus we are God's righteousness: doesn't this mean every sin you commit thwarts (your interpretation of) His "predestined" "good works" you were to walk in? Interesting that you're able to do that. Unless you hold that Christians never sin. "Predestination" is apparently not what you think it is.

 

[romans113336]

I may have to start asking God about predestination and election, and, perhaps, God willing, start a thread on that topic. I'd like a more comprehensive understanding--to understand how all the other Scriptural evidence that salvation can be lost actually fits together with these doctrines.

I've seen some good presentations on a more context-based (ie, actually reading the passages he cites in their original contexts--not just superficially understanding them, as the vast majority do) reading of Romans 9, where it is explained that Paul's argument is actually against the Jewish objection to the Gospel that sees Jews not receiving mercy and grace, despite promises (eg, "all Israel shall be saved"), and how the current election may seem to thwart those promises and the "election" (not to salvation) (Ro 11) the Jews still have on account of those promises.

In other words, so the argument goes, Ro 9 is supposedly about answering the Jewish believers' objections to God's having seemingly been unfaithful in having decided different bases for "chosenness" in the Gospel.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Scripture sees it different, which is what James is talking about. That faith produces works.


Muslims also do this, and pagans as well. Back when I was running with some rough folks we did numerous charitable things.


As I said many heathens do charitable works.
Also Jesus said go away you worker of iniquity.


James was making a good point, that faith can not be shown except by the works that it produces.

faith produces works.

I don’t think it does. Look at what James said.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?
- So we see already that having faith does not equal works.

15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

If you come to my door and ask for bread, and I open the door and tell you “I believe in Jesus, then shit the door…. My faith has produced no works.

Muslims also do this, and pagans as well. Back when I was running with some rough folks we did numerous charitable things.

1 Peter 4:8 King James Version (KJV)
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

Are you suggesting that Muslims are not entitled to this covering because they are muslims?

Romans 2.14-16, “For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

 

[Truthnightmare]

I may have to start asking God about predestination and election, and, perhaps, God willing, start a thread on that topic. I'd like a more comprehensive understanding--to understand how all the other Scriptural evidence that salvation can be lost actually fits together with these doctrines.

I've seen some good presentations on a more context-based (ie, actually reading the passages he cites in their original contexts--not just superficially understanding them, as the vast majority do) reading of Romans 9, where it is explained that Paul's argument is actually against the Jewish objection to the Gospel that sees Jews not receiving mercy and grace, despite promises (eg, "all Israel shall be saved"), and how the current election may seem to thwart those promises and the "election" (not to salvation) (Ro 11) the Jews still have on account of those promises.

In other words, so the argument goes, Ro 9 is supposedly about answering the Jewish believers' objections to God's having seemingly been unfaithful in having decided different bases for "chosenness" in the Gospel.

I may have to start asking God about predestination and election, and, perhaps, God willing, start a thread on that topic.

I was just about too…. I’ve hesitated, but perhaps I should now that I see you are thinking the same.

 

[Truthnightmare]

James compares the persuasive power of a statement "I have faith" against a walk of faith whose actions shout "I have faith". Obviously, one is more convincing than the other. One therefore glorifies God more than the other. And the entire purpose of Christianity is God getting glory through our good deeds. He's trying to convince them of this to move them to works.

I do enjoy no matter the topic your endgame is always, please God, focus on God, glorify God…

 

[romans113336]

I may have to start asking God about predestination and election, and, perhaps, God willing, start a thread on that topic. I'd like a more comprehensive understanding--to understand how all the other Scriptural evidence that salvation can be lost actually fits together with these doctrines.

I've seen some good presentations on a more context-based (ie, actually reading the passages he cites in their original contexts--not just superficially understanding them, as the vast majority do) reading of Romans 9, where it is explained that Paul's argument is actually against the Jewish objection to the Gospel that sees Jews not receiving mercy and grace, despite promises (eg, "all Israel shall be saved"), and how the current election may seem to thwart those promises and the "election" (not to salvation) (Ro 11) the Jews still have on account of those promises.

In other words, so the argument goes, Ro 9 is supposedly about answering the Jewish believers' objections to God's having seemingly been unfaithful in having decided different bases for "chosenness" in the Gospel.

I was just about too…. I’ve hesitated, but perhaps I should now that I see you are thinking the same.

By all means, go ahead and make a thread.
I don't understand it (haven't prayed about it) so I'm not ready to do so.

 

[romans113336]

I do enjoy no matter the topic your endgame is always, please God, focus on God, glorify God…

We should not fail to acknowledge that, despite their mangled doctrines, the intent, and, in many cases, the result, of Monergists and Monergism is the same.

 

[Truthnightmare]

By all means, go ahead and make a thread.
I don't understand it (haven't prayed about it) so I'm not ready to do so.

I’ve studied it, prayed on it, but understand it… ummmm But I will release what I have.

 

[romans113336]

I do enjoy no matter the topic your endgame is always, please God, focus on God, glorify God…

I used to have more of a grace of fasting, so I fasted a lot more. I've been going through some issues, including, especially, kidney failure, that have derailed my fasting, so I detest my "carnality" of eating often (ie, daily), and even enjoying it, and looking forward to it, paired with insufficient fasting. I feel that I am drowning sometimes. It's really confusing. Anyway, God is working on me; I just don't want to give the impression I am more than I am. I just remember when I was different, more filled with an intent of Christ-glorifying, though I pray and strive for it, and am disappointed often.

 

[selahsays]

So, as the verse says, we are His workmanship, and He is at work in us to will and do for His pleasure, thus we are God's righteousness: doesn't this mean every sin you commit thwarts (your interpretation of) His "predestined" "good works" you were to walk in? Interesting that you're able to do that. Unless you hold that Christians never sin. "Predestination" is apparently not what you think it is.

… but a “saint” will not (habitually) sin and if he does, he will repent and ask God to forgive him, and God promises that He will.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

- 1 John 1:9 (KJV)

 

[selahsays]

So, as the verse says, we are His workmanship, and He is at work in us to will and do for His pleasure, thus we are God's righteousness: doesn't this mean every sin you commit thwarts (your interpretation of) His "predestined" "good works" you were to walk in? Interesting that you're able to do that. Unless you hold that Christians never sin. "Predestination" is apparently not what you think it is.

Even Paul sinned, and he was a chosen vessel.

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

- Romans 7:19-25 (KJV)

 

[romans113336]

… but a “saint” will not (habitually) sin and if he does, he will repent and ask God to forgive him, and God promises that He will.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

- 1 John 1:9 (KJV)

None of that addresses my point: the fact that if we interpreted "predestined" the way you're doing it, it wouldn't work. Nevertheless, that is tangential to the topic.

 

[selahsays]

None of that addresses my point: the fact that if we interpreted "predestined" the way you're doing it, it wouldn't work. Nevertheless, that is tangential to the topic.

I truly don’t believe that predestination is tangential to the topic. Honestly, do you think that a predestined person never sins? And that if he sins, he will lose his salvation?

 

[romans113336]

Even Paul sinned, and he was a chosen vessel.

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

- Romans 7:19-25 (KJV)

Not saying Paul was sinless (even he would only say he wasn't aware he was sinning--his conscience didn't testify against him--but that that alone wasn't conclusive, since he understands, from the OT, there are sins people commit without knowing, and, he concludes, he will be judged not by his conscience, but by God's Word, Christ), but Romans 7, which you have cited, is not "Christian" Paul, but "pre-Christ" Jews (including Paul).

I've addressed this before:

1. It is about the past--"when we were in the flesh, the Law aroused our sinful passions", whereas Christians are "not in the flesh but in the Spirit" (Ro 8:9).
2. Paul says "no covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in God's Kingdom", but the man in Ro 7 is completely conquered by sin, and, explicitly, the sin of covetousness. Is Paul saying he has no inheritance in God's Kingdom? That's what you are saying, even if you don't understand you're saying that.
3. The man in Ro 7 could not keep God's Law, but Paul did (Ro 8:4).
4. The man in Ro 7 was "held captive" to Sin, but, after Christ (Ro 7:24,25), he is "set free" (Ro 7:6, 8:2).
5. The man in Ro 7 is "dead" in his sins, but Christians are "alive from the dead" (Ro 6:13).

Not sure how you're disagreeing, in the light of these things.

Actually, Paul said his conscience was clear and he wasn't aware he was sinning.

1 Cor 4
4For I am not aware of anything against myself; however I am not vindicated by this, but the one who examines me is the Lord.

So, no, again, Ro 7 is not descriptive of Paul's life as a Christian.

Also, Paul said that he, as a Christian, made his body his slave (1 Co 9:26).
What is sin? Spiritual slavery.
But, he had it the other way around: he (his inward man) made his body its slave.
So he had sin under control.

So, again, no, Ro 7 is not about Paul's Christian life, but about his pre-Christian life as a Jew under the Law.