Works Complete Faith?
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Thats the ongoing premise you have attempted to champion thru this entire thread. And then when you are proven wrong, a blithe excusatory response is proffered.
As far as I can tell, you are selling some kind of hyper-Arminian heresy as far as I can tell.
Salvation waxes and wanes, and is wholly dependent upon OUR faith and works! Sin leading to condemnation banana peels everywhere, one slip up and you are flung headlong into the lake of fire.
Outrageous.
As far as I can tell, you are selling some kind of hyper-Arminian heresy as far as I can tell.
Salvation waxes and wanes, and is wholly dependent upon OUR faith and works! Sin leading to condemnation banana peels everywhere, one slip up and you are flung headlong into the lake of fire.
Outrageous.
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We all need to be humble (like the tax collector) and not fall into the trap of trusting in self and looking down on others (like the Pharisee).
Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’
That's a lot of "I" from the Pharisee.
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you; this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’
That's a lot of "I" from the Pharisee.
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you; this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
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And to honest brother, then the fruit inspectors come in and claim...
1. We have been saved by faith alone in the finished work of the cross.
2. Believers must do good works to justify that they are saved, or they're not true believers.
But, no one will come and and answer, what good works, how much good works, and for how long does one continue to do good works? What in the world is the JSOC for, if all believers go onto good works?
What's the purpose of discipleship? Bible study? Gathering together? Solid bible preaching? What if these things are absent in the believer's life?
1. We have been saved by faith alone in the finished work of the cross.
2. Believers must do good works to justify that they are saved, or they're not true believers.
But, no one will come and and answer, what good works, how much good works, and for how long does one continue to do good works? What in the world is the JSOC for, if all believers go onto good works?
What's the purpose of discipleship? Bible study? Gathering together? Solid bible preaching? What if these things are absent in the believer's life?
Here we go again. With genuine believers it's not about must do good works but will do good works. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) It's also not about do I have enough good works but do I have the right kind of faith. Our faith must trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation in order for us to be saved. You seem determined to produce a completely fruitless Christian.
How many good works did the thief on the cross produce while hanging on the cross the same day of his death bed conversion? The thief on the cross simply rebuked the other thief, defended the Lord and asked Jesus to remember him when He comes into his kingdom, demonstrating he had faith in Jesus. The apostle Paul produced numerous good works throughout his Christian life, yet they were both equally saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)
In Luke 23:43, we read that the thief on the cross said this to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” In verse 43, Jesus said to him “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
In Matthew 12:37, Jesus said - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the condition of our hearts. Words are evidence for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness, as we see below.
Luke 23:39 - Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.” - by your words you will be condemned.
Luke 23:40 - But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” - by your words you will be justified.
How many good works did the thief on the cross produce while hanging on the cross the same day of his death bed conversion? The thief on the cross simply rebuked the other thief, defended the Lord and asked Jesus to remember him when He comes into his kingdom, demonstrating he had faith in Jesus. The apostle Paul produced numerous good works throughout his Christian life, yet they were both equally saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)
In Luke 23:43, we read that the thief on the cross said this to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” In verse 43, Jesus said to him “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
In Matthew 12:37, Jesus said - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the condition of our hearts. Words are evidence for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness, as we see below.
Luke 23:39 - Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.” - by your words you will be condemned.
Luke 23:40 - But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” - by your words you will be justified.
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What's the purpose of discipleship? Bible study? Gathering together? Solid bible preaching?
What if these things are absent in the believer's life? Will this saved person live a life honoring to God when they don't even know what that looks like? Is it possible that they fall back into the ways of the world? Is it possible that they could fall under false teaching and have their faith overthrown?
What if these things are absent in the believer's life? Will this saved person live a life honoring to God when they don't even know what that looks like? Is it possible that they fall back into the ways of the world? Is it possible that they could fall under false teaching and have their faith overthrown?
Ah, that great word nevertheless...some believers had their faith overthrown by false teachers. Nevertheless, the foundation of God standeth sure. They were sealed with the Holy Spirit, but their individual faith was overthrown. Thanks be to God for the faith of Chrsit!
2 Timothy 2
6 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
If one is not firmly rooted and grounded in the scripture, then they can fall for anything. All those things I mentioned, help a believer to grow in their faith and go onto good works. Sometimes, sadly, those things are missing.
2 Timothy 2
6 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
If one is not firmly rooted and grounded in the scripture, then they can fall for anything. All those things I mentioned, help a believer to grow in their faith and go onto good works. Sometimes, sadly, those things are missing.
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How long is it (according to your view) between the time that he commits this "sin" (in Rom14:23) and the time that God "condemns" him for it (in Rom14:23, per your view) and he consequently "forfeits" salvation (as you've said)?
Because, you've stated the following things in this thread:
--"It would be unrighteous for God to not condemn sin [...]" (my question to you is, how long between the "sin" committed, and the time that God righteously "condemns" him for the "[if] HE EATS" thing, according to you? A week? 6 weeks? 6 months? Other?);
--"Infractions of this rule are 'sin' which results in 'condemnation'" (but my question to you is, "when" in relation to the committed "sin" does God "condemn" this person, thus meaning they've "forfeited" salvation according to your view?)
I know there are many passages and verses that people *think* are saying a person/member of the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY can "forfeit" their salvation (or can "lose" it), but they don't. Several have been covered in this thread... and I'm certain you believe that we are unaware of the [supposed] TONS OF VERSES MORE that you still haven't yet presented which convince you that we have no idea what we're talking about, and make you think "if you only KNEW of all of them, like I do!" [like you keep saying].
(Not.
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Because, you've stated the following things in this thread:
--"It would be unrighteous for God to not condemn sin [...]" (my question to you is, how long between the "sin" committed, and the time that God righteously "condemns" him for the "[if] HE EATS" thing, according to you? A week? 6 weeks? 6 months? Other?);
--"Infractions of this rule are 'sin' which results in 'condemnation'" (but my question to you is, "when" in relation to the committed "sin" does God "condemn" this person, thus meaning they've "forfeited" salvation according to your view?)
I know there are many passages and verses that people *think* are saying a person/member of the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY can "forfeit" their salvation (or can "lose" it), but they don't. Several have been covered in this thread... and I'm certain you believe that we are unaware of the [supposed] TONS OF VERSES MORE that you still haven't yet presented which convince you that we have no idea what we're talking about, and make you think "if you only KNEW of all of them, like I do!" [like you keep saying].
(Not.
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Of course those things help a believer to grow in their faith. Believers are created in Christ Jesus unto good works that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) I just don't buy into the genuine believers who NEVER produce any good works at all story. What kind of faith gets permanently overthrown?
An individual's faith can be overthrown, as the passage shows, by false teaching...
It happens all the time. New believers falling prey to false teachers.
Personally, I went through about 7 years of my life where there was very little, if no evidence coming from my life that I was a believer. Circumstances took me away from church, the bible, and everything spiritual that was pouring into my life. I fell back into the darkness of the world and was not walking as a child of light. "That couldn't happen to a true believer." Hogwash! We, as believers, better take heed how we build upon the foundation.
Why does Paul, over and over and over again, admonish the believers to walk after the Spirit? To walk as a child of light? Why does he warn us about the JSOC? Because our labor matters. It doesn't happen automatically just because we're saved. Should we go onto good works? Absolutely! That is the desire of the Lord. Unfortunately, many do not live a life honoring to God. Many fall prey to false teaching or no teaching at all. Many have no bible, no discipleship, no church, nothing.
It happens all the time. New believers falling prey to false teachers.
Personally, I went through about 7 years of my life where there was very little, if no evidence coming from my life that I was a believer. Circumstances took me away from church, the bible, and everything spiritual that was pouring into my life. I fell back into the darkness of the world and was not walking as a child of light. "That couldn't happen to a true believer." Hogwash! We, as believers, better take heed how we build upon the foundation.
Why does Paul, over and over and over again, admonish the believers to walk after the Spirit? To walk as a child of light? Why does he warn us about the JSOC? Because our labor matters. It doesn't happen automatically just because we're saved. Should we go onto good works? Absolutely! That is the desire of the Lord. Unfortunately, many do not live a life honoring to God. Many fall prey to false teaching or no teaching at all. Many have no bible, no discipleship, no church, nothing.
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I married a Catholic girl (unequally yoked) who knew very little about the bible. She challenged me with questions. I started back to church and brought her, while I went to Mass with her on Saturday night. Her questions brought back a desire for me to seek the Lord once again. I've never looked back. In our fist year of marriage, that Catholic girl gave her life over to Jesus. We seek the Lord and his word together, 30 years now. Praise the Lord for his grace and mercy. I never play judge or fruit inspector. The foundation of God standeth sure, even when we don't stand sure.
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Some, very little. But one day, they will face the JSOC to give an account for rewards or lack of rewards. Salvation is not at stake. Praise the Lord for his righteousness through the faith of Jesus Christ. Though, my faith wavers, his faith never wavers.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Romans 14:
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
1 Corinthians 3:
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Romans 14:
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
1 Corinthians 3:
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
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