Works Complete Faith?
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Right.
How about in the following verse (has someone already brought up this one, in this thread??):
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by [en] the faith/faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved [participle] me, and gave [participle] himself for me." - Gal2:20
At what point is "the faithfulness of the Son of God" no longer in effect?
How about in the following verse (has someone already brought up this one, in this thread??):
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by [en] the faith/faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved [participle] me, and gave [participle] himself for me." - Gal2:20
At what point is "the faithfulness of the Son of God" no longer in effect?
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Paul says "Don't you know... Christ is in you, unless indeed you fail the test?"
Same as what happened with the Galatians--they were "cut off from Christ" for "deserting Him Who calls you in the grace of Christ".
Not an issue of walking in grace and faith (the second portion of the one command 1 Jn 3), in these cases mentioned, but of faith in the Son of God (the first portion of the Command 1 Jn 3).
Same as what happened with the Galatians--they were "cut off from Christ" for "deserting Him Who calls you in the grace of Christ".
Not an issue of walking in grace and faith (the second portion of the one command 1 Jn 3), in these cases mentioned, but of faith in the Son of God (the first portion of the Command 1 Jn 3).
The works are worked in us involuntarily, as soon as He takes up residence in us, and we are to also walk in them. This is freedom--freedom to do as we will, because He working in us to will and do His good pleasure. But those who walk after the flesh CANNOT do as they will, because they have a yes and a no.
James knows his audience has true faith (he calls them "adulteresses" against God--he knows they're "married" to Him by faith), he's just calling them to repentance, just as Paul called the Corinthians to repentance, saying, "Purge out the old leaven, for you are unleavened". James addresses believers' ongoing and final justification--Paul does, too (Ro 2:6-16; Ro 14:5,23), but people have this odd fixation with only one of his doctrines, as if it is mutually exclusive with the rest of his doctrines on the topic. Again if I had to choose an error of overemphasis, I'd choose faith alone, but why not just believe all his doctrines?
I'm unleavened, righteous, as a gift--now I'm called to walk joyfully in that freedom, doing only things I'm fully convinced are correct, not after the flesh, doing things I doubt, in which case I am condemned (Ro 14:23), and, if that's my pattern of behavior, it will result in death not life (Ro 8:12,13) when I'm judged (Ro 2:6-16). If it is apparent I have let some old leaven in, I'm to purge it out and instead walk as what I truly am, spiritually--unleavened.
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Unassailable? Well that is quite a bold statement. But false.
@TheDivineWatermark was the unassailable commentator who corrected your folly at every encounter.
Same goes for Chronister. But Chronister absolutely destroys your position root and branch.
I submitted a few useful inputs as well, humble though they may be.
@TheDivineWatermark was the unassailable commentator who corrected your folly at every encounter.
Same goes for Chronister. But Chronister absolutely destroys your position root and branch.
I submitted a few useful inputs as well, humble though they may be.
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Your Quote Here ----from Jame 4
James knows his audience has true faith (he calls them "adulteresses" against God--he knows they're "married" to Him by faith), he's just calling them to repentance,---James addresses believers' ongoing and final justification
I say
So again --you are wrong here ----If they have the right faith then they are justified by God and would have already repented ------your ignorance of Scripture is showing -----actually James is addressing unbelievers -----
the Book of James -----the audience is ---
To whom was it written and why?
James addressed his letter “to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad” (James 1:1), meaning all the house of Israel; he was inviting them to “receive the gospel … [and] come into the fold of Christ”
James 1
Amplified Bible, Classic Edition
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes scattered abroad [among the Gentiles in the dispersion]: Greetings ([a]rejoice)!
I say
So here we see that James is speaking to the 12 tribes of Israel ------these are from the Jewish Nation ------
The Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and so they have not the right Faith to be saved ------their faith lies in keeping the law and that is dead faith ------which James talks about in james 2 ----
Again you think you know what your saying is right ----but that won't cut the mustard ---with discerning Spiritual Truth -----the Holy Spirit is the only one who can give you Spiritual discernment to know the truth of the Scripture -----
Your Quote here
Paul called the Corinthians to repentance, saying, "Purge out the old leaven, for you are unleavened".
No --Paul is not calling the Corinthians to Repent here -----He is calling them to rebuke a member of the Church who has committed the sin of incest and the Church has allowed this person to remain in the Church ---so Paul is using the statement you quote here saying if you allow a member who has sinned in the Church to remain
it can ruin the whole lump -----
So this passage you quote is about judgment and their lack of it -------it is not about repentance -----as you say
This is what this says ---1 Corinthians 5:7
https://www.bibleref.com/1-Corinthians/5/1-Corinthians-5-7.html#:~:text=ESV Cleanse out the old,--as you really are.
Paul details a grievous sin: the believers in Corinth have failed to rebuke a member who is committing incest with his father's wife. They must remove him from the church and turn him over to Satan in hopes of his ultimate salvation. This is also crucial for the health of the church—just as tiny bits of leaven eventually spread to an entire batch of dough, sin left unconfronted can poison an entire church.
So again your assumption is wrong -----
So lets go to your Romans 2: --
It is about God's Judgment ---and being a hypocrite ----- Paul here is talking to the religious Jews --who have rejected Jesus and who if they don't repent will stand before God judged on their works of the law ---which they can't keep ---and who are judging others when they commit the same sins ----
So Paul is not talking about beliebers here ---He is addressing ----unbelievers
Romans 2:
God's Righteous Judgment. Romans 2 is written to admonish the Jews that living by the law and circumcision does not make them righteous in God's eyes. This comes as quite a shock, but Paul stresses that living by rules and regulations only brings about judgment and condemnation.
Romans 14
Chapter Context
Paul turns from the black-and-white instructions about light and darkness in Romans 13 to the issue of disputable matters with the potential to divide the church. Paul instructs those who feel free to participate in activities formally forbidden under the law not to flaunt their freedom in front of those who, by conscience, still believe those actions to be wrong. Those strong-faith Christians should be willing to set aside their freedom to keep from leading their weaker brothers and sisters into sin by violating their convictions. Paul addresses this topic with additional comments in 1 Corinthians chapter 10.
I say -----So where you get this chapter 14 is about Repentance --I don't know ---as again it is about Judgment -----and not to argue with each other -----
James knows his audience has true faith (he calls them "adulteresses" against God--he knows they're "married" to Him by faith), he's just calling them to repentance,---James addresses believers' ongoing and final justification
I say
So again --you are wrong here ----If they have the right faith then they are justified by God and would have already repented ------your ignorance of Scripture is showing -----actually James is addressing unbelievers -----
the Book of James -----the audience is ---
To whom was it written and why?
James addressed his letter “to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad” (James 1:1), meaning all the house of Israel; he was inviting them to “receive the gospel … [and] come into the fold of Christ”
James 1
Amplified Bible, Classic Edition
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes scattered abroad [among the Gentiles in the dispersion]: Greetings ([a]rejoice)!
I say
So here we see that James is speaking to the 12 tribes of Israel ------these are from the Jewish Nation ------
The Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and so they have not the right Faith to be saved ------their faith lies in keeping the law and that is dead faith ------which James talks about in james 2 ----
Again you think you know what your saying is right ----but that won't cut the mustard ---with discerning Spiritual Truth -----the Holy Spirit is the only one who can give you Spiritual discernment to know the truth of the Scripture -----
Your Quote here
Paul called the Corinthians to repentance, saying, "Purge out the old leaven, for you are unleavened".
No --Paul is not calling the Corinthians to Repent here -----He is calling them to rebuke a member of the Church who has committed the sin of incest and the Church has allowed this person to remain in the Church ---so Paul is using the statement you quote here saying if you allow a member who has sinned in the Church to remain
it can ruin the whole lump -----
So this passage you quote is about judgment and their lack of it -------it is not about repentance -----as you say
This is what this says ---1 Corinthians 5:7
https://www.bibleref.com/1-Corinthians/5/1-Corinthians-5-7.html#:~:text=ESV Cleanse out the old,--as you really are.
Paul details a grievous sin: the believers in Corinth have failed to rebuke a member who is committing incest with his father's wife. They must remove him from the church and turn him over to Satan in hopes of his ultimate salvation. This is also crucial for the health of the church—just as tiny bits of leaven eventually spread to an entire batch of dough, sin left unconfronted can poison an entire church.
So again your assumption is wrong -----
So lets go to your Romans 2: --
It is about God's Judgment ---and being a hypocrite ----- Paul here is talking to the religious Jews --who have rejected Jesus and who if they don't repent will stand before God judged on their works of the law ---which they can't keep ---and who are judging others when they commit the same sins ----
So Paul is not talking about beliebers here ---He is addressing ----unbelievers
Romans 2:
God's Righteous Judgment. Romans 2 is written to admonish the Jews that living by the law and circumcision does not make them righteous in God's eyes. This comes as quite a shock, but Paul stresses that living by rules and regulations only brings about judgment and condemnation.
Romans 14
Chapter Context
Paul turns from the black-and-white instructions about light and darkness in Romans 13 to the issue of disputable matters with the potential to divide the church. Paul instructs those who feel free to participate in activities formally forbidden under the law not to flaunt their freedom in front of those who, by conscience, still believe those actions to be wrong. Those strong-faith Christians should be willing to set aside their freedom to keep from leading their weaker brothers and sisters into sin by violating their convictions. Paul addresses this topic with additional comments in 1 Corinthians chapter 10.
I say -----So where you get this chapter 14 is about Repentance --I don't know ---as again it is about Judgment -----and not to argue with each other -----
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Lol "people with true faith never need to be told repent--they do it on their own"?
Why does Paul write "purge out the old leaven, for you are unleavened, for Christ our passover lamb has been sacrificed"?
Why does Paul instruct us "rebuke, reprove" Christians? Because Christians repent without intervention ?
Why does Paul write "purge out the old leaven, for you are unleavened, for Christ our passover lamb has been sacrificed"?
Why does Paul instruct us "rebuke, reprove" Christians? Because Christians repent without intervention ?
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"Church leaders wasted their time writing to letters to various unbelievers who don't care what they say"?Nah.
1. Nope, if it is the James who was the apostle in Jerusalem, his ministry was among Jewish believers, and, just off the top of my head, it would make sense for him to believe he should write to these people. There is not full agreement on its author, though.
2. You certainly haven't been granted discernment--that much is clear.
Go acquaint yourself with the material before commenting on it--the entire epistle long he is ripping them up and down for the sin of boasting, even sarcastically asking the church, "shall I praise you!?", and he mentions that MANY of them were sick and had even died on account of having offended the Lord in their having received communion unworthily.
Oops, no, he's addressing the Jewish believers in the Roman Church (again, Paul doesn't waste his time writing letters to unbelievers who don't care about or recognize his Apostleship, who actually beat him with rods, stoned him to death, who undermine his doctrines, etc):
1. "You call yourself a Jew..." (Ro 2:17),
2. "Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh..." (Ro 4:1)
3. "Or do you not know, my brothers (for I speak to those who know the Law)..." (Ro 7:1)
He only addresses Gentiles briefly at the greeting, and then, much later on, at Ro 11:13, he begins to address them again.
See, you're just assuming that "Christians do right automatically" to prove your point "Christians do right automatically"--a species of logical fallacy.
Ro 14:5, the rule "let every man be fully convinced in his own mind" is given.
Infractions of this rule are "sin" which results in "condemnation".
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"and gave Himself for me"
The sacrifices of the High Priest, under the OT, applied only to the nation.
The nation, itself, however, was constantly in flux--some being cut off, others being added.
In the NT, we see this same dynamic (Ro 11:17-23).
And the sacrifice is only efficacious for members of the nation.
The sacrifices of the High Priest, under the OT, applied only to the nation.
The nation, itself, however, was constantly in flux--some being cut off, others being added.
In the NT, we see this same dynamic (Ro 11:17-23).
And the sacrifice is only efficacious for members of the nation.
Actually, I'm glad we have spoken.
I knew some good would come of it.
Discussing Scripture is always edifying.
I have learned that over time.
The fact that the Corinthian Church had had many members in it whom the Lord had stricken with sickness and/or killed (as a mercy to potentially get them to see the seriousness of their sin, and finally repent, so that they may at least have their spirits saved when they are Judged in the future) for having eaten the Communion unworthily is another proof of ongoing judgment and corresponding ongoing adjudications of condemned/justified.
In fact, the Church, itself, is to practice "discipline"--another form and proof of ongoing judgment and corresponding ongoing adjudications of condemned/justified.
Revelation 2 and 3 are the same.
Of course there is ongoing judgment and ongoing adjudications of condemnation/justification--of course it doesn't happen ONLY upon hearing with faith, at the outset of one's walk of faith--and of course there is a "grand finale" judgment for believers, at the end of the age, at which they will be adjudicated condemned or justified (Ro 2:6-16).
I knew some good would come of it.
Discussing Scripture is always edifying.
I have learned that over time.
The fact that the Corinthian Church had had many members in it whom the Lord had stricken with sickness and/or killed (as a mercy to potentially get them to see the seriousness of their sin, and finally repent, so that they may at least have their spirits saved when they are Judged in the future) for having eaten the Communion unworthily is another proof of ongoing judgment and corresponding ongoing adjudications of condemned/justified.
In fact, the Church, itself, is to practice "discipline"--another form and proof of ongoing judgment and corresponding ongoing adjudications of condemned/justified.
Revelation 2 and 3 are the same.
Of course there is ongoing judgment and ongoing adjudications of condemnation/justification--of course it doesn't happen ONLY upon hearing with faith, at the outset of one's walk of faith--and of course there is a "grand finale" judgment for believers, at the end of the age, at which they will be adjudicated condemned or justified (Ro 2:6-16).
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