Works Complete Faith?
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Yes, we're saved like the Jews were saved--and, just as the Jews fell under God's wrath and forfeited the promise because of sinning after being saved, so, also, Christians can be condemned for sinning. Also, their justification is maintained by walking in faith, not in the flesh. That's what this is all about.
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You ignore what I post. It is either self-condemnation or that the believer is being compared to an unbeliever.
And while it would be unrighteous for God to not condemn sin, it would be equally unrighteous to condemn a believer for their sin since Jesus already has already been condemned in their place.
And while it would be unrighteous for God to not condemn sin, it would be equally unrighteous to condemn a believer for their sin since Jesus already has already been condemned in their place.
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And I have already answered:
1. Does "sin" (Ro 14:23) lead to mere "self-condemnation", or does "sin" lead to God condemning?
2. What does it mean that a believer is being compared to an unbeliever? Is he condemned for his "sin" or is he not? You have played games, now, trying to avoid answering this, for a long time now. Everyone can see it.
1. Does "sin" (Ro 14:23) lead to mere "self-condemnation", or does "sin" lead to God condemning?
2. What does it mean that a believer is being compared to an unbeliever? Is he condemned for his "sin" or is he not? You have played games, now, trying to avoid answering this, for a long time now. Everyone can see it.
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You cited #207.
I said "I was addressing Cameron".
Then you cited another post, where I put your name.
How is that slippery?
I was asking Cameron to tell me what Cameron thought of Ro 14:23 in #207.
Earlier, I was addressing your answer you gave to Ro 14:23, and how you thought it was "self-condemnation".
This is not being slippery. I was pressing Cameron, not you, in #207.
I said "I was addressing Cameron".
Then you cited another post, where I put your name.
How is that slippery?
I was asking Cameron to tell me what Cameron thought of Ro 14:23 in #207.
Earlier, I was addressing your answer you gave to Ro 14:23, and how you thought it was "self-condemnation".
This is not being slippery. I was pressing Cameron, not you, in #207.
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Nope. Exactly backwards. Specifically, "Works" ARE THE RESULT OF FAITH. As Philip Melacthon said (in Luther's time): "It is FAITH ALONE that saves, but the FAITH THAT SAVES will never be alone". Saving FAITH will invariably , of it's intrinsic nature PRODUCE Works
The book of James essentially is a TEST by which one can determine that what they CALL FAITH, actually IS Biblical Faith as defined in Heb 11:1, or nothing more than "Religious / Theological BELIEF". "FAITH" that produces nothing in practical terms, isn't "FAITH" at all.
The book of James essentially is a TEST by which one can determine that what they CALL FAITH, actually IS Biblical Faith as defined in Heb 11:1, or nothing more than "Religious / Theological BELIEF". "FAITH" that produces nothing in practical terms, isn't "FAITH" at all.
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For instance, I would read it as "There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because they are not being mastered by sin, thus, not keeping God's commands, because those who walk after the Spirit keep God's commands (Ro 8:4)--but, when a person sins, they are not abiding in Christ, thus they suffer condemnation, as 1 Jn 2:28 says 'Abide in Him, so that when He appears, you will not draw back in shame'."
1. Grace saves through the righteousness of faith--true.
This "salvation" Paul compares to that salvation of the Jews from Egypt--and, just as they fell under wrath and forfeited the promise, because they sinned after being saved, Paul says, Christians can fall under wrath, and forfeit the promise, after being saved (1 Co 10).
2. Yes, faith must come before works.
Still, some do not walk in faith (eg, Ro 14:23, all of 1 Corinthians, where they are reprimanded for living in sin), and this is the issue James 2 addresses.
3. No, if good works invariably followed from faith, Christians would never sin, but anyone who says they don't sin is a liar and God's Word is not abiding in them, and, again, 1 Cor would never have been written.
This "salvation" Paul compares to that salvation of the Jews from Egypt--and, just as they fell under wrath and forfeited the promise, because they sinned after being saved, Paul says, Christians can fall under wrath, and forfeit the promise, after being saved (1 Co 10).
2. Yes, faith must come before works.
Still, some do not walk in faith (eg, Ro 14:23, all of 1 Corinthians, where they are reprimanded for living in sin), and this is the issue James 2 addresses.
3. No, if good works invariably followed from faith, Christians would never sin, but anyone who says they don't sin is a liar and God's Word is not abiding in them, and, again, 1 Cor would never have been written.
1. What a blessing Paul lived.
He says those who belong to Christ "have crucified the fleshly desires", but we also know some Christians "walk after the flesh" instead of "mortifying the deeds of the flesh by the spirit", and they will not inherit life but die at the judgment (Ro 2:6-16, 8:12,13).
2. Faithfulness* of the Son of God--I think we talked about this already. If you disagree, we can agree to disagree.
He says those who belong to Christ "have crucified the fleshly desires", but we also know some Christians "walk after the flesh" instead of "mortifying the deeds of the flesh by the spirit", and they will not inherit life but die at the judgment (Ro 2:6-16, 8:12,13).
2. Faithfulness* of the Son of God--I think we talked about this already. If you disagree, we can agree to disagree.
Sorry for any confusion.
It was not my intention.
I stand by what I said earlier: I was not pressing you for your explanation of Ro 14:23 in #207.
You volunteered a reply to #207.
If you want to answer my answer to your answer on Ro 14:23, go ahead, but I wasn't pressing you in #207, so when you responded to #207, I was confused.
It was not my intention.
I stand by what I said earlier: I was not pressing you for your explanation of Ro 14:23 in #207.
You volunteered a reply to #207.
If you want to answer my answer to your answer on Ro 14:23, go ahead, but I wasn't pressing you in #207, so when you responded to #207, I was confused.
“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak (ad)what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 35 The good man brings out of his good treasure (ae)what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure (af)what is evil. 36 But I tell you that every (ag)careless word that people (ah)speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37 For (ai)by your words you will be justified, and (aj)by your words you will be condemned.”
Here's a verse that says something similar, sounds like a matter of overall behavior rather than one sin equaling condemnation. It's a like a balancing scale, we should try to avoid the things that are sin(condemnation) and do and say the things of righteousness to the best of our ability. Just don't expect it to be what gets you into heaven, or kicks you into hell.
Here's a verse that says something similar, sounds like a matter of overall behavior rather than one sin equaling condemnation. It's a like a balancing scale, we should try to avoid the things that are sin(condemnation) and do and say the things of righteousness to the best of our ability. Just don't expect it to be what gets you into heaven, or kicks you into hell.
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PERSONALLY, I'm not necessarily a believer in "OSAS" (or "Perseverance of the Saints" to the Calvinists). But I DO believe that the "State of being Born Again's FOUNDATION" is Living FAITH which depends on there being a living relationship with God. By personal experience, I know that a Christian CAN "get busy with other things and NEGLECT their relationship - which causes "LIVING FAITH" to dim, and become the fading memory of HAVING HAD a living relationship. It's also my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE the God does sent "Wake-up calls", sometimes pretty brutal ones, to "GET OUR ATTENTION" before it's too late.
FAITH (Biblical FAITH - Heb 11:1) must come BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE is even possible. For me and many others "CONVOCTION OF SIN and of Judgement from the Holy Spirit was the initial SOURCE of FAITH (God's WORD to you) before I was even Born Again..
Totally incorrect!!! There's NOTHING Biblically that would lead to a conclusion like that. You've expressed the "Jump to the ridicuolus extreme" fallacy. You're STILL HUMAN, and you STILL HAVE A HUMAN NATURE, and paul instructs us to "Crucify the fless, and live in the Spirit instead. That's the progressive process of "Sanctification" (coming into Christian maturity).
CORRECT!! Christians SIN, which has NOTHING TO DO with the Holy Spirit in a Born again person producing GOOD WORKS in them. Fortunately WHEN we SIN, we have an advocate when we confess our SIN to him.[/quote]
PERSONALLY, I'm not necessarily a believer in "OSAS" (or "Perseverance of the Saints" to the Calvinists). But I DO believe that the "State of being Born Again's FOUNDATION" is Living FAITH which depends on there being a living relationship with God. By personal experience, I know that a Christian CAN "get busy with other things and NEGLECT their relationship - which causes "LIVING FAITH" to dim, and become the fading memory of HAVING HAD a living relationship. It's also my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE the God does sent "Wake-up calls", sometimes pretty brutal ones, to "GET OUR ATTENTION" before it's too late.
FAITH (Biblical FAITH - Heb 11:1) must come BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE is even possible. For me and many others "CONVOCTION OF SIN and of Judgement from the Holy Spirit was the initial SOURCE of FAITH (God's WORD to you) before I was even Born Again..
Totally incorrect!!! There's NOTHING Biblically that would lead to a conclusion like that. You've expressed the "Jump to the ridicuolus extreme" fallacy. You're STILL HUMAN, and you STILL HAVE A HUMAN NATURE, and paul instructs us to "Crucify the fless, and live in the Spirit instead. That's the progressive process of "Sanctification" (coming into Christian maturity).
CORRECT!! Christians SIN, which has NOTHING TO DO with the Holy Spirit in a Born again person producing GOOD WORKS in them. Fortunately WHEN we SIN, we have an advocate when we confess our SIN to him.[/quote]
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