Works Complete Faith?

[romans113336]

Works Complete Faith?


Works are a proof and evidence of faith.

Ephesians 2:
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

God produces good works by us as we abide in the vine by faith.

Works are a natural outgrowth of faith.

If "true faith produces good works" were true, the Corinthians would never have been living in sin.
Of course, it's not true.

However, can we stick to the texts?

How does Paul say Christians who sin (by doing what they doubt is correct) are "condemned" and not "justified"?

 

[Cameron143]

"Relationship", and "Covenant relationship" are two different things--if not, you wouldn't have said James's audience had a "Covenant relationship" right?

Ok. Everyone is covenantally related to God whether they acknowledge it or not.

 

[romans113336]

You are all messed up buddy.

Rom 4:25
Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Rom 5:16
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of ONE the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

You must not have read the discussion: I affirm justification on the basis of the righteousness of faith, AND I affirm that there is ongoing justification (if not, Paul is wrong when he teaches that Christians who sin are "condemned"--"condemned" is the opposite adjudication to "justified"), AND that there is a eschatological judgment at which only "doers of good" will be "justified" (Ro 2:6-16).

Your problem is you want to believe a single doctrine, whereas I want to believe all of them. Simple.

 

[romans113336]

Ok. Everyone is covenantally related to God whether they acknowledge it or not.

Right, but not everyone is called "adulteress", because they're not in a "marriage" relationship with God.

 

[Cameron143]

So, you agreed with the explanation?

Not at all. I'm saying since we cannot attain to the righteousness of the law, no amount of works will ever produce the righteousness God requires of us. This is why no works of the flesh will ever be justified.

 

[cv5]

Justification is a daily reality, as Paul says sin results in condemnation (Ro 14:23)--it seems you agree--and, at the end, there will be a judgment of works.
(Ro 14:23).

Good grief man do you actually believe that this verse is dealing with a kind of horrific sin and faithlessness that leads to eternal death and condemnation to the lake of fire or something?

Rom 14:23
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

For pity's sake look a the context.

Rom 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18
For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19
Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20
For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22
Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

 

[romans113336]

How do you reconcile this with Romans 8:1...There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus?

The question is for you, actually: how do you reconcile Ro 14:23 with your interpretation of Romans 8:1 and a justification that cannot be affected by your works?

 

[Dino246]

Scripture equates God's righteousness as the faith of Jesus Christ.

Scripture relates the two but it does not equate the two. Again, you're conflating inappropriately.

God's righteousness was on display through the faith of Jesus Christ.

True, but not directly relevant.

That's the righteousness man needs to be right with God. It's only available through Christ. His righteousness has become our righteousness.

Yes... but the righteousness in which we live as Christians is not (literally) "the faith that Jesus exercised" nor is it imputed to us through "the faith that Jesus exercised". It is imputed to us through the faith we exercise... which is a gift from God.

 

[romans113336]

Not at all. I'm saying since we cannot attain to the righteousness of the law, no amount of works will ever produce the righteousness God requires of us. This is why no works of the flesh will ever be justified.

I think you've misunderstood me: we have a gift of righteousness, in the spirit, and so we are to walk in that, to walk in the spirit, so that we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh, and this will result in justification and life on a daily basis and at the eschaton (Ro 2:6-16), but if we walk after the flesh we will die (Ro 8:12,13).

 

[Cameron143]

Right, but not everyone is called "adulteress", because they're not in a "marriage" relationship with God.

They may not be, but they are supposed to be.

 

[romans113336]

Good grief man do you actually believe that this verse is dealing with a kind of horrific sin and faithlessness that leads to eternal death and condemnation to the lake of fire or something?

Rom 14:23
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

For pity's sake look a the context.

Rom 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18
For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19
Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20
For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22
Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

There's no reason to get bent out of shape.

Do you accept that the Christian who sins by doing what he doubts--because the rule is "let each man be fully convinced in his own mind" (Ro 14:5) is "condemned" or no? How did he lose his justification?

 

[Cameron143]

If "true faith produces good works" were true, the Corinthians would never have been living in sin.
Of course, it's not true.

However, can we stick to the texts?

How does Paul say Christians who sin (by doing what they doubt is correct) are "condemned" and not "justified"?

Doubt reflects a lack of faith. Anything not of faith is sin.

 

[romans113336]

They may not be, but they are supposed to be.

How is this relevant?

The reality is James is not questioning their faith--he knows they have faith and are married to God--so he is not addressing their faith being "real" or "false" in James 2, but calling them to repentance! LOL

 

[romans113336]

Doubt reflects a lack of faith. Anything not of faith is sin.

Correct, so, back to the first post, he isn't addressing faith in Christ, but another "faith" that pertains to convictions--accordingly, our daily walk affects our standing, just as James says.

 

[cv5]

You must not have read the discussion: I affirm justification on the basis of the righteousness of faith, AND I affirm that there is ongoing justification (if not, Paul is wrong when he teaches that Christians who sin are "condemned"--"condemned" is the opposite adjudication to "justified"), AND that there is a eschatological judgment at which only "doers of good" will be "justified" (Ro 2:6-16).

Your problem is you want to believe a single doctrine, whereas I want to believe all of them. Simple.

Here let me put it this way:

If you are speaking to your righteousness, your works, your faith, and your justification thereby.....

You ain't gonna make it bro....

 

[Cameron143]

I think you've misunderstood me: we have a gift of righteousness, in the spirit, and so we are to walk in that, to walk in the spirit, so that we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh, and this will result in justification and life on a daily basis and at the eschaton (Ro 2:6-16), but if we walk after the flesh we will die (Ro 8:12,13).

Actually, when we are saved, we are declared to be righteous. That's why there is no longer any condemnation.

 

[romans113336]

Here let me put it this way:

If you are speaking to your righteousness, your works, your faith, and your justification thereby.....

You ain't gonna make it bro....

No, when I do good, that is God, because my righteousness is a gift, and "God Is Our Righteousness" (Jer 23:6), yet I am told to "obey", and to "yield your members to God as instruments of righteousness". It's all true, not just part of it.

 

[romans113336]

Actually, when we are saved, we are declared to be righteous. That's why there is no longer any condemnation.

So, again, if your view is totally correct, not just partially correct (I agree with it in part--who could disagree), it should wield explanatory power for Romans 14:23. How does it explain it?

 

[Cameron143]

Correct, so, back to the first post, he isn't addressing faith in Christ, but another "faith" that pertains to convictions--accordingly, our daily walk affects our standing, just as James says.

Our daily walk by faith only limits our ability to access the promises and blessings of God. It does not cause us to forfeit our salvation.

 

[cv5]

There's no reason to get bent out of shape.

Do you accept that the Christian who sins by doing what he doubts--because the rule is "let each man be fully convinced in his own mind" (Ro 14:5) is "condemned" or no? How did he lose his justification?

If you actually believe that the sin (or "a" sin) of doubt leads to condemnation of the eternal kind and the eternally ruinous loss of justification, well then I pity you for the impossible task you have burdened yourself with.

As for me, I have faith in the One who is faithful. I am thereby eternally justified and rest in His righteousness, sure mercies and grace.