Works Complete Faith?

[Cameron143]

In calling them adultresses, James is acknowledging that they are in a covenant relationship; not necessarily a saving relationship.

 

[mailmandan]

I'm righteous because Christ is righteous. No amount of works can show or prove that I am righteous. I am a filthy sinner saved by grace. I'm in Christ, the righteous One. I sin daily. The only way I have any hope is through the righteousness of Jesus Christ!

Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

 

[Mem]

Abraham's faith is counted as righteousness, and his works revealed his faith, in God and not the law. For example, God directed Abraham to offer Isaac up, which is against the law. Why didn't Abraham protest that command as reflexively as Peter did when God told him to "kill and eat."?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

James was not answering the question, "Will works follow faith?" James was answering the questions, "Can faith save him?" Can faith save him without works?

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Paul would unwavering say, yes! Faith saves a man without any works attached whatsoever. Works neither saves a man, neither proves one has salvation.

Paul and James are talking about two different things to two different audiences. Until that is realized, people will go on trying to mesh the two by cutting off the square edges and jamming it into the hole.

your wrong

james was asking,, if a person CLAIMS to have faith.. Can that claimed faith save him.

And no, paul would not agree. Because Paul said those who are saved by grace through faith will have works.

 

[oyster67]

Works Complete Faith?


Works are a proof and evidence of faith.

Ephesians 2:
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

God produces good works by us as we abide in the vine by faith.

Works are a natural outgrowth of faith.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Works are a proof and evidence of faith.

And yet we have these endless wranglings about faith and works. Or is it just to stir the pot?

 

[John146]

no

He answered the question can THAT claimed faith save him.

And paul would say no, because they did not have true saving faith, it was dead. Lifeless, no faith at all

Faith saves! No works

 

[John146]

Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Slight correction...

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

The righteousness of God was on display through the faith of Jesus Christ. He was completely obedient to his Father.

 

[mailmandan]

Slight correction...

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

The righteousness of God was on display through the faith of Jesus Christ. He was completely obedient to his Father.

Numerous translations say faith in Jesus Christ. (NKJV, NASB, NIV, ESV, HCSB etc..).

 

[Dino246]

Slight correction...

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

The righteousness of God was on display through the faith of Jesus Christ. He was completely obedient to his Father.

The context does not support your interpretation. While your statements aren't wrong, they are unrelated to the verse.

The "faith of Christ" in this context is not "the faith that Jesus exercised", but rather "the faith placed in Him". We are made righteous in God's sight directly by imputation which comes from God to those who put their faith in the finished work of Christ. That Christ exercised faith (or was faithful to His mission) is a secondary and not a primary cause of our righteousness before God.

Your version makes our exercise of faith meaningless and irrelevant. That is inconsistent with the whole counsel of Scripture whereby we are admonished to put our faith in Christ.

This is another case where the meaning and usage of words has changed since 1600, and the change is ignored by readers of the KJV.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Faith saves! No works

Your right

A claimed but false faith will never save..

 

[John146]

Numerous translations say faith in Jesus Christ. (NKJV, NASB, NIV, ESV, HCSB etc..).

"Numerous" means nothing. Which is correct? Truth is what matters, majority does not rule.

 

[John146]

The context does not support your interpretation. While your statements aren't wrong, they are unrelated to the verse.

The "faith of Christ" in this context is not "the faith that Jesus exercised", but rather "the faith placed in Him". We are made righteous in God's sight directly by imputation which comes from God to those who put their faith in the finished work of Christ. That Christ exercised faith (or was faithful to His mission) is a secondary and not a primary cause of our righteousness before God.

Your version makes our exercise of faith meaningless and irrelevant. That is inconsistent with the whole counsel of Scripture whereby we are admonished to put our faith in Christ.

This is another case where the meaning and usage of words has changed since 1600, and the change is ignored by readers of the KJV.

The righteousness of God = the faith of Jesus Christ....it is upon all them that believe.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

When a man believes the gospel of Jesus Christ, God's righteousness (the faith of Christ) is given to that man. The man becomes justified. Only God's righteousness can justify a man. He is the Just and the Justifier of them which believe.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[John146]

Works don't happen automatically. A man can hear the gospel, believe the gospel, and be saved and have not works. That man can die a saved man and go to heaven.

Works is the result of being discipled, learning the word of God, and applying it to your life through the help of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, works are a result of man's faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. A man's faith is strengthened by the word of God.

 

[Dino246]

The righteousness of God = the faith of Jesus Christ....it is upon all them that believe.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

When a man believes the gospel of Jesus Christ, God's righteousness (the faith of Christ) is given to that man. The man becomes justified. Only God's righteousness can justify a man. He is the Just and the Justifier of them which believe.[/QUOTE]
"The faith of Christ" is not the same thing as "God's righteousness"; they are distinct. God is righteous in and of Himself, and He was righteous before Jesus came as a man. If "God's righteousness" were the same thing as "the faith of Christ", you would be purporting a catch-22 because God could not have been righteous until Christ exercised faith. That doesn't make sense at all!

Jesus was indeed faithful to the calling given Him, and He indeed had faith in His Father, but that is not what was imputed to us. Rather, God imputes His righteousness to us, so that we are counted righteous. This is because we believe in Jesus Christ, not (directly) because Jesus was faithful or because He exercised faith.

 

[John146]

When a man believes the gospel of Jesus Christ, God's righteousness (the faith of Christ) is given to that man. The man becomes justified. Only God's righteousness can justify a man. He is the Just and the Justifier of them which believe.

"The faith of Christ" is not the same thing as "God's righteousness"; they are distinct. God is righteous in and of Himself, and He was righteous before Jesus came as a man. If "God's righteousness" were the same thing as "the faith of Christ", you would be purporting a catch-22 because God could not have been righteous until Christ exercised faith. That doesn't make sense at all!

Jesus was indeed faithful to the calling given Him, and He indeed had faith in His Father, but that is not what was imputed to us. Rather, God imputes His righteousness to us, so that we are counted righteous. This is because we believe in Jesus Christ, not (directly) because Jesus was faithful or because He exercised faith.[/QUOTE]

Scripture equates God's righteousness as the faith of Jesus Christ. God's righteousness was on display through the faith of Jesus Christ. That's the righteousness man needs to be right with God. It's only available through Christ. His righteousness has become our righteousness.

 

[romans113336]

As I see it, you're taking Romans 14 out of context... the "practical application" section of Romans (just like ppl tend to blur all of Romans together, smooshing-it-all-up-together [into one big mish-mash of mush]. lol)



In that regard, I fairly agree with what Wm R Newell has to say about Rom14:23 (and its context), here:


[quoting Newell]

Verse 22:

Hast thou faith? Have [it] to thyself before God. Blessed is he that doth not judge himself in the acts which he alloweth [in his own life].

“It is much more blessed to have a liberty before God which we do not use on account of our brother's weakness, than to insist on our liberty, though it be distinctly given. The man whom Paul declares happy' is he who can eat what he pleases and drink what he pleases, without any qualms of conscience to condemn him while he does so.” These words (from Sanday) are true. The word translated “allows,” or “permits,” or “approves,” is literally, “puts to the test.” The picture is of a man having before him a question of conscience (of days, meats, or whatever), whose decisions in the use of his liberty are such that he does not go beyond his knowledge, and persuasion in the Lord Jesus (verse 14). For, though he have in his mind that he is free in such or such a matter, if his conscience check him, he “judges” himself if he rushes ahead in an action. To the strong believer the apostle speaks this word: “Hast thou faith? Have it to thyself before God.” You have probably known people whom in this sense you did not know! They had learned, yet were content not publicly to use, that great liberty of faith into which God had led them. It is blessed to have faith. It is yet more blessed to have that faith “before God”--when using the freedom it gives might perplex another!

Verse 23:

But he that doubteth is condemned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith; and whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Of course the word “damned” (for “condemned”) of the King James Version, is not the meaning here. But what is meant is the state of conscious condemnation into which one falls who goes beyond his faith in the exercise of his liberty. For he who acts thus enters the realm of self-will, the lawlessness (anomia) which God declares is sin (1 John 3:4).

The apostle's definition of sin here as “what is not of faith” is most searching. It will drive us to our knees. It reaches everything in our lives concerning which our conscience is not at rest, in which we do not have faith to proceed, in which we cannot walk with God.



[end quoting Newell; color, italics, parentheses, and brackets original; underline mine]









Many "contexts" are misunderstood by many, I'll just say that much... = )

So, long story short, you agree that a Christian is "condemned" if they don't walk in faith.

Therefore, how are you disagreeing with my view of James 2, where it says the person who walks out their faith is "justified", when "Justified" is the opposite of "condemned"?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

In the content below, isn't the "faith" referred to not with reference to "the finished work of Christ"--isn't "faith", here, something more akin to a Holy Spirit-granted conviction of what is right or wrong? Doesn't it describe instances of how we "serve in newness of spirit, not in oldness of the letter"? Isn't it a warning that if we choose to ignore those convictions, we will not be "justified" but "condemned" (the two being adjudications the Judge may make about one's life)?

If so, then James and Paul are saying the same thing: as Christians, we will live (be justified by the righteousness of serving in the newness of the Spirit, and, ultimately, "repaid" eternal life Ro 2:6-16) if we walk after the Spirit, but will die (be condemned for unrighteousness, and, ultimately, perish) if we walk after the flesh?


Romans 14
5Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind...
23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

James 2
14What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can [j]that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [k]be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is [l]dead, being by itself.
18But someone [m]may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19You believe that [n]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless? 21Was our father Abraham not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and [o]as a result of the works, faith was [p]perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called a friend of God. 24You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was Rahab, the prostitute, not justified by works also when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

right if you look to Abraham we see faith

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee instruction )


( the promise of God ) and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭12:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is an act of faith by Abraham god told his to leave his homeland and fathers house into a land God would later show him and Abraham obeyed because he believed the promise

“By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He was acting on what God told him to do and promised him even before he saw the land or knew it

Your referencing this part here

“After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭15:1, 5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Again Abraham believes what god told him about having a son and because he believed what god said to him he’s counted as righteous . What James is highlighting is this part when Abraham’s faith was tested

“And it came to pass after these things, that God did test Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

( Abraham obeys and prepares his son as a sacrifice to god )

And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, and said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: that in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭22:1-2, 10-12, 15-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬


We first have to hear what god said , then we believe it and we will act that’s what faith is one is a promise and then later it’s fulfilled

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? ( because thou hart done this thing and not withheld thy son ) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:21-24, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see there about Abraham bieng called a friend of God ?because first he heard from God and believed and then he acted and the scripture declaring beforehand is now fulfilled

“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his Lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:13-

faith has nothing to do with Moses law but has everything to do with what Jesus said in the gospel we are meant to hear him , believe him and follow after that belief it will lead us home

 

[romans113336]

Says/claims he has faith, but he has no works demonstrates a dead faith. James even asks the question, can that faith save him? The answer to that rhetorical question is no. Yet James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple.

1. I can show that the entire section is all about faith and works, works completing faith, that works justify, but you cannot show it is about true and false faith, or true and false "claims" of faith.
That is because it simply is not James's concern.

2. If James believes "true faith invariably results in good works", James is writing in vain--he doesn't need to tell them "Guys, get it together." He is contradicting his own teaching.

3. When he compares faith to a body, he doesn't compare it to a true body and a false body, but to a complete body (with a spirit--living) and an incomplete body (without a spirit--dead), so, again, his concern is that you have a living faith by making sure you have good works along with your faith.
Again and again, there is no "false" body in view, only complete or incomplete.[/quote]

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous. See how easy that is?

You still have a problem: righteousness is the basis for being justified.
Accordingly, Paul says if we sin we are condemned.
Therefore, justification is not permanent, unaffected by our daily walk.
Conversely, your daily justification is reliant on your daily righteousness.
So, also, at the end, we will be Judged, and justified by our works (Ro 2:6-16).

Do you teach salvation by works?

That depends on what you mean by salvation.
The salvation we have is comparable, according to Paul, to the salvation of the Jews from their slavery in the House of Bondage, Egypt; Paul says, however, that the same fate they suffered can happened to us after being saved. They sinned, and so fell under God's wrath, and failed to inherit the Promise.
So, if you call "falling under God's wrath" and "not inheriting God's promise of eternal life" saved, then I don't agree final salvation isn't affected by our works, that our sins cannot get us damned.

 

[romans113336]

To have faith you must have the right perspective of God, and His kingdom.

You cannot believe something contrary to that, and have faith.

The Bible says charity, love in action, works, is greater than faith, and hope.

And faith works by love.

John said if any person does not care about the needs of people then the love of God does not dwell in them.

So do not love in word, nor in tongue, but in deed, works, and truth.

Love is only valid in a person's life it is done in action.

You cannot say I love you, be saved, how are you doing, and it is valid as love if you do not help people with their needs.

Paul said he can have all faith so that he can remove mountains but if he did not have faith then he is nothing.

And said if any person teaches godliness is gain from such withdraw yourselves having food and clothing be content.

For the love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and the needy, and that is what it is all about loving people for love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul said if people heap money for their wants then they have erred from the faith.

Because we have to have the right perspective of God, and His kingdom, that He loves people, and want their needs to be met.

God loves people not blessing the saints with their wants, and said He only provides for our needs.

James said if a person does not care about the needs of people then their faith is dead because they lack love for without love your faith is not valid for you do not have the right perspective.

Which he said a person is justified by works and faith alone.

Which he said it plainly that we are not justified by faith alone but by works which are works of love which is the only way love can be valid.

That is why James said I will show you my faith by my works for love can only be done in action for faith to be valid, and it is the only way to have the right perspective of God, and His kingdom.

Paul and John say the same thing but people argue over the two.

We are saved by faith, and not works, when we first come to Christ for that is all we can do.

But when we receive the Spirit then we have to have works of love to have faith apply in our life.

But there are millions of people claiming Christ that say we are saved by faith alone that go by their wants which is not love then it is not faith.

It sounds like we're in agreement then?

BUT, see, I have to believe Scripture, so I must understand all of these things, so I pray about them to understand how they all are reconciled. It's a Bible discussion to discuss the Bible passages and verses and understand them better, so that our faith is not in mere opinions but in the Apostles' doctrines, which can seem inconsistent. This discussion is the scrutiny of them and the reconciliation of them.