Works Complete Faith?

[Cameron143]

1. I can show that the entire section is all about faith and works, works completing faith, that works justify, but you cannot show it is about true and false faith, or true and false "claims" of faith.
That is because it simply is not James's concern.

2. If James believes "true faith invariably results in good works", James is writing in vain--he doesn't need to tell them "Guys, get it together." He is contradicting his own teaching.

3. When he compares faith to a body, he doesn't compare it to a true body and a false body, but to a complete body (with a spirit--living) and an incomplete body (without a spirit--dead), so, again, his concern is that you have a living faith by making sure you have good works along with your faith.
Again and again, there is no "false" body in view, only complete or incomplete.

You still have a problem: righteousness is the basis for being justified.
Accordingly, Paul says if we sin we are condemned.
Therefore, justification is not permanent, unaffected by our daily walk.
Conversely, your daily justification is reliant on your daily righteousness.
So, also, at the end, we will be Judged, and justified by our works (Ro 2:6-16).


That depends on what you mean by salvation.
The salvation we have is comparable, according to Paul, to the salvation of the Jews from their slavery in the House of Bondage, Egypt; Paul says, however, that the same fate they suffered can happened to us after being saved. They sinned, and so fell under God's wrath, and failed to inherit the Promise.
So, if you call "falling under God's wrath" and "not inheriting God's promise of eternal life" saved, then I don't agree final salvation isn't affected by our works, that our sins cannot get us damned.[/QUOTE]
How do you reconcile all this with Galatians 2:16...by works of the law shall no flesh be justified?

 

[romans113336]

Love is the greatest quality between faith, hope and love (1 Corinthians 13:13) because God is love and it outlasts faith and hope.

That passage does say love is the greatest, but it doesn't say love outlasts faith and hope, it says all three are eternal.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

Justification is a daily reality, as Paul says sin results in condemnation (Ro 14:23)--it seems you agree--and, at the end, there will be a judgment of works.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Yet those justified by the righteousness of faith (Ro 5:1) are told they are condemned if they sin (Ro 14:23).

 

[romans113336]

Disagree

James used them as an example to show a truth. You believe there is one god. Good for you. The demons also believe in that.

The people of James CLAIMED to have faith.. James never said they actually had faith. He was attacking a licentious gospel.

James never militates against "claims", only against having faith but not walking in faith.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

James never militates against "claims", only against having faith but not walking in faith.

You need to read

he said they had a claimed faith..

discussion over

 

[Cameron143]

That passage does say love is the greatest, but it doesn't say love outlasts faith and hope, it says all three are eternal.


Justification is a daily reality, as Paul says sin results in condemnation (Ro 14:23)--it seems you agree--and, at the end, there will be a judgment of works.


Yet those justified by the righteousness of faith (Ro 5:1) are told they are condemned if they sin (Ro 14:23).

How do you reconcile this with Romans 8:1...There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus?

 

[romans113336]

How do you reconcile this with Romans 8:1...There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus?

Easily: those who are not condemned are those abiding in Christ, but when they fail to abide in Him, they experience condemnation. As it says "in Him there is no sin", and, so, "Little children, remain in Him, so that when He appears, you will not be ashamed" (1 Jn 2:28), and "Little children, keep yourselves from idols" (1 Jn 5:21). Idolatry, sin, pulls people away from abiding in Christ by keeping His commandments. How to remain in Him is by keeping His Commands, which are 1) believe on the Name of God's Son, and 2) love one another (1 Jn 3). This is why the Galatians, merely by believing a false Gospel, were said to be "deserting Him Who calls you in the grace of Christ, and are going after another Gospel". We know there are "doctrines of demons", and Paul warns, "this persuasion does not come from Him Who calls you" (Gal 5). So, they were breaking the commands, and were "cut off from Christ" (Gal 5).

 

[romans113336]

You need to read

he said they had a claimed faith..

discussion over

James takes no issue with a claim of faith, he is calling the audience to repentance of only saying they believe (obviously, he knows they believe--and he calls them "adulteresses" Ja 4, because their sinful lifestyles constituted "adultery" against the God they were already married to) but must do good now.

a) Demons believe but don't do good works--you don't want to be like them!
b) When he discusses how a body compares to faith, and how, without a spirit, a body is dead, he never mentions a "false" body, as if some people have a "mannequin" faith. He says the body is real, but it needs something additional--a spirit. So, also, he never questions the "realness" of the audience's faith, only the completeness of their faith, and says it needs something additional--works.

Simple.

 

[Cameron143]

Easily: those who are not condemned are those abiding in Christ, but when they fail to abide in Him, they experience condemnation. As it says "in Him there is no sin", and, so, "Little children, remain in Him, so that when He appears, you will not be ashamed" (1 Jn 2:28), and "Little children, keep yourselves from idols" (1 Jn 5:21). Idolatry, sin, pulls people away from abiding in Christ by keeping His commandments. How to remain in Him is by keeping His Commands, which are 1) believe on the Name of God's Son, and 2) love one another (1 Jn 3). This is why the Galatians, merely by believing a false Gospel, were said to be "deserting Him Who calls you in the grace of Christ, and are going after another Gospel". We know there are "doctrines of demons", and Paul warns, "this persuasion does not come from Him Who calls you" (Gal 5). So, they were breaking the commands, and were "cut off from Christ" (Gal 5).

Abiding in Christ isn't the same as being in Christ. Being in Christ is a positional reality. Either we have been placed into Christ by the Holy Spirit or we have not. Abiding in Christ is something we do relationally after being placed in Christ. The abiding is within our purview. We can either be linked to Christ or simply live in our own strength...John 15.

 

[romans113336]

In calling them adultresses, James is acknowledging that they are in a covenant relationship; not necessarily a saving relationship.

If that is true (it's not), then all humanity (and all land animals) qualifies, since God made a Covenant with us all, of which the rainbow is a sign, that He won't flood it again.

 

[romans113336]

Abiding in Christ isn't the same as being in Christ. Being in Christ is a positional reality. Either we have been placed into Christ by the Holy Spirit or we have not. Abiding in Christ is something we do relationally after being placed in Christ. The abiding is within our purview. We can either be linked to Christ or simply live in our own strength...John 15.

Accordingly, those abiding in Christ are not condemned, and they leave abiding in Him by sinning against His commands, they are "condemned" (Ro 14:23).
If we live a life of not abiding, a life of condemnation, we will be cut off and thrown in the fire--as Paul warns "if you live after the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh you will live".
Agreed?

 

[romans113336]

How do you reconcile all this with Galatians 2:16...by works of the law shall no flesh be justified?

"Works of the Law" is a statement made to the Jewish believers in the Roman church (he addresses Gentiles only briefly at the opening of the letter, and later, beginning at Ro 11:13).

He is trying to move them away from serving "in the oldness of the letter" and to "the newness of the spirit".

"Works of the Law" are produced by flesh looking at the Torah and deciding to "do good"--Paul calls this method of righteousness "weak", because it relies on sinful flesh (Ro 8:3; Gal 3:3); but when he wars against this false Gospel, with the Galatians, his solution is not "just believe in Christ", rather, that they "serve one another" by "faith which works by love".

Faith, conviction, "full convinced in his own mind" (Ro 14:5), relies on the power of the Spirit, they are works created by God, not sinful flesh, and so we "fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law" (Ro 8:4), but they are not "works of the Law" because they are not created by the sinful flesh.

 

[Cameron143]

If that is true (it's not), then all humanity (and all land animals) qualifies, since God made a Covenant with us all, of which the rainbow is a sign, that He won't flood it again.

Everyone is in a relationship with God whether they acknowledge it or not.

 

[romans113336]

Abraham's faith is counted as righteousness, and his works revealed his faith, in God and not the law. For example, God directed Abraham to offer Isaac up, which is against the law. Why didn't Abraham protest that command as reflexively as Peter did when God told him to "kill and eat."?

Yes, his faith is counted as righteousness, and it resulted in his justification.
However, don't forget he also had "footsteps of faith" (Ro 4).

That walking in faith results in justification (Ja 2).
Also, walking in doubt results in condemnation (Ro 14:23).

 

[romans113336]

Everyone is in a relationship with God whether they acknowledge it or not.

"Relationship", and "Covenant relationship" are two different things--if not, you wouldn't have said James's audience had a "Covenant relationship" right?

 

[cv5]

You still have a problem: righteousness is the basis for being justified.
Accordingly, Paul says if we sin we are condemned.
Therefore, justification is not permanent, unaffected by our daily walk.
Conversely, your daily justification is reliant on your daily righteousness.
So, also, at the end, we will be Judged, and justified by our works (Ro 2:6-16).

You post betrays a total misapprehension of James and Hebrews. Very common BTW.

Question: Who is Righteous and Who is doing this justifying? Because it certainly is not us.
And ONLY because it is not us, CAN IT BE eternal righteousness and justification. Both of which are a gracious GIFT.

Job 25:4
How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

Psa 143:2
And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

 

[romans113336]

You post betrays a total misapprehension of James and Hebrews. Very common BTW.

Question: Who is Righteous and Who is doing this justifying? Because it certainly is not us.
And ONLY because it is not us, CAN IT BE eternal righteousness and justification. Both of which are a gracious GIFT.

Job 25:4
How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

Psa 143:2
And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

This is not an answer to the answer I gave.

 

[Cameron143]

"Works of the Law" is a statement made to the Jewish believers in the Roman church (he addresses Gentiles only briefly at the opening of the letter, and later, beginning at Ro 11:13).

He is trying to move them away from serving "in the oldness of the letter" and to "the newness of the spirit".

"Works of the Law" are produced by flesh looking at the Torah and deciding to "do good"--Paul calls this method of righteousness "weak", because it relies on sinful flesh (Ro 8:3; Gal 3:3); but when he wars against this false Gospel, with the Galatians, his solution is not "just believe in Christ", rather, that they "serve one another" by "faith which works by love".

Faith, conviction, "full convinced in his own mind" (Ro 14:5), relies on the power of the Spirit, they are works created by God, not sinful flesh, and so we "fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law" (Ro 8:4), but they are not "works of the Law" because they are not created by the sinful flesh.

Works of the law are exactly what is suggested. And while the problem lies in the sinful flesh and not the law itself, we all have sinful flesh. There is a righteousness of the law; we simply are unable to attain it.

 

[romans113336]

Works of the law are exactly what is suggested. And while the problem lies in the sinful flesh and not the law itself, we all have sinful flesh. There is a righteousness of the law; we simply are unable to attain it.

So, you agreed with the explanation?

 

[cv5]

Yes, his faith is counted as righteousness, and it resulted in his justification.
However, don't forget he also had "footsteps of faith" (Ro 4).

That walking in faith results in justification (Ja 2).
Also, walking in doubt results in condemnation (Ro 14:23).

You are all messed up buddy.

Rom 4:25
Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Rom 5:16
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of ONE the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[cv5]

This is not an answer to the answer I gave.

Fine. But can you answer my answer?