How do you reconcile the first Commandment with the trinity?

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Franc254

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Do you reject everything the Bible infers but does not explicitly state?

I don't because Jesus for instance never said point blank he was God and he should be worshipped but we know he was....but I also don't like filling plot holes with my own thinking.... because where do we draw a line and say....when this verse speaks about God it's just the Father and then when this other verse talks about God it's the trinity or God the son (who is not even provided for in scripture) I think that's very wrong.... And to prove that theory with you Acts 20:28 talks about God buying the church with his own blood and do you know what your reply will be ....that it is God the son (who btw is nowhere in scripture)....wait and you will see your response
 

Diakonos

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I don't because Jesus for instance never said point blank he was God and he should be worshipped but we know he was....but I also don't like filling plot holes with my own thinking.... because where do we draw a line and say....when this verse speaks about God it's just the Father and then when this other verse talks about God it's the trinity or God the son (who is not even provided for in scripture) I think that's very wrong.... And to prove that theory with you Acts 20:28 talks about God buying the church with his own blood and do you know what your reply will be ....that it is God the son (who btw is nowhere in scripture)....wait and you will see your response
Thank you for your honesty.
God the Son is provided for in Scripture; Jesus is explicitly called "God" 9 times in the New Testament. For example,
"But of the Son, he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom." (Heb 1:8)

Regarding non-stated biblical inferences, what are your criteria for why you reject some and not others?
 

SpeakTruth101

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Thank you for your honesty.
God the Son is provided for in Scripture; Jesus is explicitly called "God" 9 times in the New Testament. For example,
"But of the Son, he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom." (Heb 1:8)


Regarding non-stated biblical inferences, what are your criteria for why you reject some and not others?
Would you be willing to provide a list of all 9 times please, I would appreciate it.

Also the use of "God" in Hebrew "אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym" does not guaranteee it is talking about YHWH, here is an example:

Psalms 82:6, 6 I, I said, “You are elohim, And all of you are sons of the Most High."

Psalms 82:6, 6 אֲנִי־אָמַרְתִּי H559 אֱלֹהִים H430 אַתֶּם וְּבְנֵי עֶלְיֹון H5945 כֻּלְּכֶם"
 

TheLearner

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Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
The Trinity teaches 3 God's as one God.

The Bible sometimes refers to God as singular but sometimes as more then one.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

One LORD???
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

It is simple, the word one in Deu 6:4 can be translated "united" like when two become one in marage.
The same word for one is used in Gen 2:24 ....and they shall be one flesh.
And also the word used for God in Deu 6:4 is plural.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over.....
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

There is both singular and plural pronouns used in verse 26 and 27.

The 3 are completely united as one.
3^0x3^0x3^0=1 or 3 to the zero power times 3 to the zero power times 3 to the zero power equals one
 

TheLearner

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We




Well I agree with the omnipotence part but the Trinity part.....nope because first of all it's infered but not provided for in scripture
Isaiah 40
King James Version
40 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.

2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins.

3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

5 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:

7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.

8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

9 O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!

10 Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?

13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him?

14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?

15 Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

16 And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering.

17 All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.

18 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?

19 The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.

20 He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.

21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?

22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.

24 Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.

25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.

27 Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the Lord, and my judgment is passed over from my God?

28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

29 He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.

30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:

31 But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
 

TheLearner

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Would you be willing to provide a list of all 9 times please, I would appreciate it.

Also the use of "God" in Hebrew "אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym" does not guaranteee it is talking about YHWH, here is an example:

Psalms 82:6, 6 I, I said, “You are elohim, And all of you are sons of the Most High."

Psalms 82:6, 6 אֲנִי־אָמַרְתִּי H559 אֱלֹהִים H430 אַתֶּם וְּבְנֵי עֶלְיֹון H5945 כֻּלְּכֶם"
Context matters for any word.
 

TheLearner

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https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8568-jehovah
https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6726-god-children-of
https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3055-bereshit
https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1488-ancestor-worship
"
Elohim.
The most common of the originally appellative names of God is Elohim (
), plural in form though commonly construed with a singular verb or adjective. This is, most probably, to be explained as the plural of majesty or excellence, expressing high dignity or greatness: comp. the similar use of plurals of "ba'al" (master) and "adon" (lord). In Ethiopic, Amlak ("lords") is the common name for God. The singular, Eloah (
), is comparatively rare, occurring only in poetry and late prose (in Job, 41 times). The same divine name is found in Arabic (ilah) and in Aramaic (elah). The singular is used in six places for heathen deities (II Chron. xxxii. 15; Dan. xi. 37, 38; etc.); and the plural also, a few times, either for gods or images (Ex. ix. 1, xii. 12, xx. 3; etc.) or for one god (Ex. xxxii. 1; Gen. xxxi. 30, 32; etc.). In the great majority of cases both are used as names of the one God of Israel.

The root-meaning of the word is unknown. The most probable theory is that it may be connected with the old Arabic verb "alih" (to be perplexed, afraid; to seek refuge because of fear). Eloah, Elohim, would, therefore, be "He who is the object of fear or reverence," or "He with whom one who is afraid takes refuge" (comp. the name "fear of Isaac" in Gen. xxxi. 42, 53; see also Isa. viii. 13; Ps. lxxvi. 12). The predominance of this name in the later writings, as compared with the more distinctively Hebrew national name Yhwh, may have been due to the broadening idea of God as the transcendent and universal Lord.


"
https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13483-shaddai
 

Diakonos

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Jan 19, 2019
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Would you be willing to provide a list of all 9 times please, I would appreciate it.

Also the use of "God" in Hebrew "אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym" does not guaranteee it is talking about YHWH, here is an example:

Psalms 82:6, 6 I, I said, “You are elohim, And all of you are sons of the Most High."

Psalms 82:6, 6 אֲנִי־אָמַרְתִּי H559 אֱלֹהִים H430 אַתֶּם וְּבְנֵי עֶלְיֹון H5945 כֻּלְּכֶם"
Absolutely! Elohim simply refers to heavenly beings, not YHWH necessarily.

Here are most of them (I can't remember the others, but I know there are 9).


John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:18
The only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

John 20:28
Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Rom 9:5
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Titus 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

2 Pet 1:1
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Rev 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
 

SpeakTruth101

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Aug 14, 2023
874
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https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8568-jehovah
https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6726-god-children-of
https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3055-bereshit
https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1488-ancestor-worship
"
Elohim.
The most common of the originally appellative names of God is Elohim (
), plural in form though commonly construed with a singular verb or adjective. This is, most probably, to be explained as the plural of majesty or excellence, expressing high dignity or greatness: comp. the similar use of plurals of "ba'al" (master) and "adon" (lord). In Ethiopic, Amlak ("lords") is the common name for God. The singular, Eloah (
), is comparatively rare, occurring only in poetry and late prose (in Job, 41 times). The same divine name is found in Arabic (ilah) and in Aramaic (elah). The singular is used in six places for heathen deities (II Chron. xxxii. 15; Dan. xi. 37, 38; etc.); and the plural also, a few times, either for gods or images (Ex. ix. 1, xii. 12, xx. 3; etc.) or for one god (Ex. xxxii. 1; Gen. xxxi. 30, 32; etc.). In the great majority of cases both are used as names of the one God of Israel.

The root-meaning of the word is unknown. The most probable theory is that it may be connected with the old Arabic verb "alih" (to be perplexed, afraid; to seek refuge because of fear). Eloah, Elohim, would, therefore, be "He who is the object of fear or reverence," or "He with whom one who is afraid takes refuge" (comp. the name "fear of Isaac" in Gen. xxxi. 42, 53; see also Isa. viii. 13; Ps. lxxvi. 12). The predominance of this name in the later writings, as compared with the more distinctively Hebrew national name Yhwh, may have been due to the broadening idea of God as the transcendent and universal Lord.


"
https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13483-shaddai
Isayah 42:8, “I am יהוה, (YHWH) that is My Name, and My esteem I do not give to another, nor My praise to idols."

Elohim and El is not a name, it means to be powerful, like the base of an oak tree

H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]
1. (literally) supreme ones.
2. (hence, in the ordinary sense) gods.
3. (specifically, in the plural, especially with the article) the Supreme God (i.e. the all supreme).
4. (sometimes) supreme, used as a superlative.
5. (occasionally, by way of deference) supreme magistrates, the highest magistrates of the land.
6. (also) the supreme angels (entities of unspecified type).
[plural of H433]
KJV: angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Root(s): H433
Compare: H5945, H7706, H8199, H4397

H410 אֵל 'el (ale) n-m.
1. firm strength, sturdiness.
2. (figuratively) a firm grip (of the hand).
3. (as adjective) sturdy (as indomitable, supreme durability).
4. (an abbreviated spelling, but especially) God, as the Superior or Indomitable Strength (but used also of any deity).
5. (hence) a god (as created or imagined).
{often used as a suffix in names, “-el”}
[shortened from H352]
KJV: God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might(-y one), power, strong.
Root(s): H352
Compare: H7706
See also: H430, H433, G2241

Psalm 2:7, “I inscribe for a law: יהוה has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have brought You forth.”

Proverbs 30:4, “Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound up the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His Name? And what is the Name of His Son? Tell me, if you know!”

Jeremiah 23:26-27, "How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Yes, they are prophets of the deceit of their own minds; Who devise; plan and scheme, to cause My people to forget My Name through their dreams, which they tell every man to his neighbor, just as their fathers have forgotten My Name for Baal."

BAAL (DEITY) [Hebrew - baal] . Canaanite storm and fertility god. The name, which means “lord, ” is an epithet of the god Hadad (lit. “thunderer” ). Well-known from the OT, he is now extremely well-attested in the Ugaritic texts, in addition to being mentioned in other ancient texts. (Freedman, David Noel: The Anchor Bible Dictionary. New York : Doubleday, 1996, c1992, S. 1:546)
 

SpeakTruth101

Active member
Aug 14, 2023
874
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Absolutely! Elohim simply refers to heavenly beings, not YHWH necessarily.

Here are most of them (I can't remember the others, but I know there are 9).


John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


John 1:18
The only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.


John 20:28
Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”


Rom 9:5
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.


Titus 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,


2 Pet 1:1
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:


Rev 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Thank you I appreciate it, thsi is helpful for my studies, I really mean it thank you!

John 17:17, “Set them apart in Your truth – Your Word is truth.”

Psalm 36:7, How precious is Your lovingkindness, O Yah! And the children of men take refuge in the shadow of Your wings."
 

Franc254

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Oct 7, 2022
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I don't but I also don't like filling plot holes with my own thinking.... because where do we draw a line and say....when this verse speaks about God it's just the Father and then when this other verse talks about God it's the trinity or God the son (who is not even provided for in scripture) I think that's very wrong.... And to prove that theory with you Acts 20:28 talks about God buying the church with his own blood and you know if what your reply will be ....that is God the son who btw is nowhere in scripture....wait and you will see your response
Thank you for your honesty.
God the Son is provided for in Scripture; Jesus is explicitly called "God" 9 times in the New Testament. For example,
"But of the Son, he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom." (Heb 1:8)


Regarding non-stated biblical inferences, what are your criteria for why you reject some and not others?
Thank you for your honesty.
God the Son is provided for in Scripture; Jesus is explicitly called "God" 9 times in the New Testament. For example,
"But of the Son, he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom." (Heb 1:8)


Regarding non-stated biblical inferences, what are your criteria for why you reject some and not others?

so no this does not prove that Jesus is God the son because you know why then you will be admitting that Jesus has his begginigs i.e the Son came after the Father and not eternal as people say....and the answer is in that Hebrews 1 still and psalms ...I will use psalms to help abit

Psalms 2:7 I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:

He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father

so it means that the son was not the son always there is the beginning of sonship which leads me to believe that this is not a separate person after all


Hebrews 5:1-5

"Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. 3 This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. 4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was.

5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.”

Does sonship have beginnings?
Yes...sonship has its beginnings but Jesus is eternal ...always has.... but the son has his beginnings and there will be a time when the son will be humbled because the purpose of the son was for salvation but after the works of salvation are done and destroying sin, the son wont be needed again but Jesus will still remain as the Father of all....what am i saying ... before even creation God knew us perhaps he knew that man would fall and so he knew that to save man it could only be done through another man this son of God and that's what we see in Eden when we see the first prophecy of the bible about the seed. So it was this man to come who we reffer to as the son …but we know his origins is eternal however we know that the son has its beginnings but it was something God had planned even before creation to save mankind

Ephesians 1:4-5
Even before he made the world,
God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. 5 God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.

and then verse 9-10
God has now revealed to us his mysterious will regarding Christ—which is to fulfill his own good plan. 10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth.

the son was chosen before the world began for the purpose of salvation and defeating sin everywhere …he was the means through which God could rid creation of any evil...WE DONT know when God chose Jesus as his son … but what we know is that God himself says …today I have become your Father...so i believe that sonship has beginnings...Jesus doesn't have beginnings
 

Franc254

Active member
Oct 7, 2022
167
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28
Thank you for your honesty.
God the Son is provided for in Scripture; Jesus is explicitly called "God" 9 times in the New Testament. For example,
"But of the Son, he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom." (Heb 1:8)


Regarding non-stated biblical inferences, what are your criteria for why you reject some and not others?

so why am clinging to this notion (DONT SKIP ANYTHING IN THIS NEXT PART YOU MAY LACK FLOW)

1st Corinthians 15: 24-28

After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. 25 For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. 26 And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.”[e] (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) 28 Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.


so after the work of salvation and destruction of everything that is evil...the son will turn the Kingdom back to the Father...basically everything will return to how it was before sin …

PART 1...For Christ must reign until

so there is like a period where this man will stop reigning he is reigning up to date and that's why Paul says that God will judge the world by the man he has appointed (Acts 17:31) but then we go to Revelations we find that it is actually God who will judge everyone but go to romns 2 last verse it says God will judge the secrets of men through Christ. Now with regards to the judge Jesus says "The Father Judges no one but he has given all judgements to his son" I think the reason for saying this is so that no one will have an excuse...i.e. God the Father you were up there so why are you judging us and you don't know our problems....and that's why there is this son of God. So God then says...I indeed was there by the man appointed and I showed this by raising him from the dead (acts 17:31) (but remember Jesus said he has power to lay down his life and take it back again) ..

PART 2.....all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself

everything is under the authority of this man Jesus Christ bt not the Father ...his true nature cant be humbled but he himself could be able to live without it...for instance God is all knowing yet Jesus couldnt figure out the woman who touched his cloak but in his true nature and form he could

Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.

now here is the twist...we learn that the son one day will be humbled under God's Authority the Father that is probably after everything is done...so when was this son given this authority...Matthew 28:18
Jesus came and told his disciples, “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth.

PART 3

....After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father,
so this is the authority spoken on in 1st Corinthians 15 after which the son will also be humbled beneath the Father...so that the Father will be supreme everywhere ....now the father now has the Kingdom again after the son has finished everything....so where is Jesus when the Father has received his kingdom back

Matthew 19:27-28

"Then Peter said to him, “We’ve given up everything to follow you. What will we get?”

28 Jesus replied, “I assure you that when the world is made new[i] and the Son of Man[j] sits upon his glorious throne, you who have been my followers will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

when the world is made new...remember this is after the events of defeating all evil the and handing the kingdom to the Father....and the son of man the son of man is a title Jesus used for himself....so they already know that the son of man is Jesus...This is Jesus telling them you know in the world to come when is sit on my glorious throne and remember there is only one king's throne in heaven...you will sit on twelve thrones(not as God obviously)…

so the son has handed the kingdom back to the father but Jesus is still reigning but not as the son but as the father

Luke 22:28
You have stayed with me in my time of trial. 29 And just as my Father has granted me a Kingdom, I now grant you the right 30 to eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom. And you will sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The word is has granted me a kingdom (NOT HAD...HAS) ...and you will eat at my table in my kingdom....

PART 4
....so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere


Now we have already established that Jesus is still reigning after the world has been made new despite the son handing the kingdom to God the Father....so how will he be supreme everywhere

Revelations 22:3-4

No longer will there be a curse upon anything. For the throne of God and of the Lamb will be there, and his servants will worship him. 4 And they will see his face, and his name will be written on their foreheads.

Now the emphasis is on the word Throne...one ...just as Jesus said in Matthew 19:28 and the throne is of God and of the lamb now this are not two beings but Just God's throne who is also the lamb and thats why the next part says his servants...not their servants for obvious reasons

what about in Hell

Revelations 14:9-10

"Then a third angel followed them, shouting, “Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or on the hand 10 must drink the wine of God’s anger. It has been poured full strength into God’s cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb.

so the lamb is still God in Hell....hence God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere. so you see Jesus still is and has always been the Father...what he did was just humble himself so low to save humanity because it was the only way that humanity could be saved....one who is pure enough to save humans and who better than God himself.



PS ALL MY ARGUMENTS AND THINKING IS FROM THE BIBLE SOLELY...I HAVE NOT USED ANY FOREIGN SOURCE
 

Franc254

Active member
Oct 7, 2022
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Thank you for your honesty.
God the Son is provided for in Scripture; Jesus is explicitly called "God" 9 times in the New Testament. For example,
"But of the Son, he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom." (Heb 1:8)


Regarding non-stated biblical inferences, what are your criteria for why you reject some and not others?
basically i reject some because their arguments are not supported by scripture...for instance Paul used words he received from God or scripture i think ....but that doesnt mean that i cant use other works but they have to conform with scripture ....this vers should not contradict with this other verse....and if there appears to be a friction this next verse adreeses this....

Matthew 23:34
Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

a scribe here reffers to a member of a learned class in ancient Israel through New Testament times studying the Scriptures and serving as copyists, editors, teachers, and jurists.

and there are still writers of the biblical teachings... but the writers should take this two verses and read it with the other two verses to come up with an answer to a conundrum
 
E

evyaniy

Guest
So God then says...I indeed was there by the man appointed and I showed this by raising him from the dead (acts 17:31) (but remember Jesus said he has power to lay down his life and take it back again) ..
To address one point you made without any comment on the rest.

John 10:17-18

Therefore doth My Father love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of My Father.

He was expressing His faith in His Father's commandment and promise of life in the Law to Him in Leviticus 18:4-5.

4 Ye shall do My judgments, and keep Mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am YHVH Your Elohim.
5 Ye shall therefore keep My statutes, and My judgments: which if a Man do, He shall live by them: I am YHVH.

This is a specific commandment and promise in the Law to the Son that if He kept His Father's commandments by giving His life as a Sacrifice for our sins to save us in obedience to the 2 greatest commandments to Love YAH above all and His neighbor as Himself, that He would live and be raised to life again.

There are a number of verses in the NT that tell us, the Father raised the Son as was promised to Him as quoted above. This is key to understanding all of Scripture.

Some verses telling us the Father raised the Son.

Acts 2:24 Whom EL(Theos, God) hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that He should be holden of it.

It was not possible that death could hold Him because of His obedience in giving His life and the promise of life in the law to Him for doing so.

Acts 2

29 “Brothers, I may tell you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that EL(Theos, YAH, God) had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Messiah to sit on his throne, 31 he foreseeing this, spoke about the resurrection of the Messiah, that His soul wasn’t left in Sheol, and His flesh didn’t see decay. 32 This Yeshua EL raised up, to which we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted by the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David didn’t ascend into the heavens, but he says himself,
‘YHVH said to my Adown, “Sit by My right hand
35 until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.” ’*
36 “Let all the house of Israel therefore know certainly that EL has made Him both Adonai and Messiah, this Yeshua Whom you crucified.”

Acts 3:15

And killed the Prince of life, Whom EL(Theos, God) hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 3:26

Unto you first EL(Theos, God), having raised up His Son Yeshua, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Acts 4:10

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the Name of Yeshua Messiah of Nazareth, Whom ye crucified, Whom EL(Theos, God) raised from the dead, even by Him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Acts 5:30

The EL(Theos, God) of our fathers raised up Yeshua, Whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 10:39-40

And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; Whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Him EL(Theos, God) raised up the third day, and shewed Him openly.

Acts 13

27 For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they didn’t know Him, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning Him. 28 Though they found no cause for death, they still asked Pilate to have Him killed. 29 When they had fulfilled all things that were written about Him, they took Him down from the tree and laid Him in a tomb. 30 But EL(Theos, God) raised Him from the dead, 31 and He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses to the people. 32 We bring you good news of the promise made to the fathers, 33 that EL has fulfilled this to us, their children, in that He raised up Yeshua. As it is also written in the second psalm,
‘You are My Son.
Today I have become Your Father.’*
34 “Concerning that He raised Him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’ 35 Therefore He says also in another psalm, ‘You will not allow Your Holy One to see decay.’ 36 For David, after he had in his own generation served the counsel of EL, fell asleep, was laid with his fathers, and saw decay. 37 But He whom EL raised up saw no decay. 38 Be it known to you therefore, brothers, that through this Man is proclaimed to you remission of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the Torah of Moses.

Acts 17:31

Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man Whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead.

Romans 6:4

Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Messiah was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 10:9

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Adonai Yeshua, and shalt believe in thine heart that EL(Theos, God) hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Galatians 1:1

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Yeshua Messiah, and EL(Theos, God) the Father, Who raised Him from the dead.

1 Thess 1:9-10

9 For they themselves report concerning us what kind of a reception we had from you, and how you turned to EL(Theos, God) from idols to serve a living and true EL, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, Whom He raised from the dead: Yeshua, Who delivers us from the wrath to come.

The Father raised the Son according to the commandment and promise of life in the Law to Him that if He offered His life to save us in obedience to His Father and the Law He would live and be raised.
 
E

evyaniy

Guest
Psalm 119 is the Son's prayer to the Father for life and to live and be raised. He asks to be raised because of His obedience to the law and statutes and precepts and commandments and judgments and testimonies and word in the Torah that required Him to offer His life to save us and thereby fulfill the Law concerning Him and His Sacrifice. He asks for life because of the promise of life to Him in the law and His obedience.

queue up the dissenters.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,232
3,575
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Psalm 119 is the Son's prayer to the Father for life and to live and be raised. He asks to be raised because of His obedience to the law and statutes and precepts and commandments and judgments and testimonies and word in the Torah that required Him to offer His life to save us and thereby fulfill the Law concerning Him and His Sacrifice. He asks for life because of the promise of life to Him in the law and His obedience.

queue up the dissenters.
I think you've already said that about a hundred times now. Afraid no one's listening? Maybe they just don't care.
 

Franc254

Active member
Oct 7, 2022
167
36
28
Psalm 119 is the Son's prayer to the Father for life and to live and be raised. He asks to be raised because of His obedience to the law and statutes and precepts and commandments and judgments and testimonies and word in the Torah that required Him to offer His life to save us and thereby fulfill the Law concerning Him and His Sacrifice. He asks for life because of the promise of life to Him in the law and His obedience.

queue up the dissenters.
To address one point you made without any comment on the rest.

John 10:17-18

Therefore doth My Father love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of My Father.

He was expressing His faith in His Father's commandment and promise of life in the Law to Him in Leviticus 18:4-5.

4 Ye shall do My judgments, and keep Mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am YHVH Your Elohim.
5 Ye shall therefore keep My statutes, and My judgments: which if a Man do, He shall live by them: I am YHVH.

This is a specific commandment and promise in the Law to the Son that if He kept His Father's commandments by giving His life as a Sacrifice for our sins to save us in obedience to the 2 greatest commandments to Love YAH above all and His neighbor as Himself, that He would live and be raised to life again.

There are a number of verses in the NT that tell us, the Father raised the Son as was promised to Him as quoted above. This is key to understanding all of Scripture.

Some verses telling us the Father raised the Son.

Acts 2:24 Whom EL(Theos, God) hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that He should be holden of it.

It was not possible that death could hold Him because of His obedience in giving His life and the promise of life in the law to Him for doing so.

Acts 2

29 “Brothers, I may tell you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that EL(Theos, YAH, God) had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Messiah to sit on his throne, 31 he foreseeing this, spoke about the resurrection of the Messiah, that His soul wasn’t left in Sheol, and His flesh didn’t see decay. 32 This Yeshua EL raised up, to which we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted by the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David didn’t ascend into the heavens, but he says himself,
‘YHVH said to my Adown, “Sit by My right hand
35 until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.” ’*
36 “Let all the house of Israel therefore know certainly that EL has made Him both Adonai and Messiah, this Yeshua Whom you crucified.”

Acts 3:15

And killed the Prince of life, Whom EL(Theos, God) hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 3:26

Unto you first EL(Theos, God), having raised up His Son Yeshua, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Acts 4:10

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the Name of Yeshua Messiah of Nazareth, Whom ye crucified, Whom EL(Theos, God) raised from the dead, even by Him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Acts 5:30

The EL(Theos, God) of our fathers raised up Yeshua, Whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 10:39-40

And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; Whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Him EL(Theos, God) raised up the third day, and shewed Him openly.

Acts 13

27 For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they didn’t know Him, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning Him. 28 Though they found no cause for death, they still asked Pilate to have Him killed. 29 When they had fulfilled all things that were written about Him, they took Him down from the tree and laid Him in a tomb. 30 But EL(Theos, God) raised Him from the dead, 31 and He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses to the people. 32 We bring you good news of the promise made to the fathers, 33 that EL has fulfilled this to us, their children, in that He raised up Yeshua. As it is also written in the second psalm,
‘You are My Son.
Today I have become Your Father.’*
34 “Concerning that He raised Him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’ 35 Therefore He says also in another psalm, ‘You will not allow Your Holy One to see decay.’ 36 For David, after he had in his own generation served the counsel of EL, fell asleep, was laid with his fathers, and saw decay. 37 But He whom EL raised up saw no decay. 38 Be it known to you therefore, brothers, that through this Man is proclaimed to you remission of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the Torah of Moses.

Acts 17:31

Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man Whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead.

Romans 6:4

Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Messiah was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 10:9

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Adonai Yeshua, and shalt believe in thine heart that EL(Theos, God) hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Galatians 1:1

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Yeshua Messiah, and EL(Theos, God) the Father, Who raised Him from the dead.

1 Thess 1:9-10

9 For they themselves report concerning us what kind of a reception we had from you, and how you turned to EL(Theos, God) from idols to serve a living and true EL, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, Whom He raised from the dead: Yeshua, Who delivers us from the wrath to come.




The Father raised the Son according to the commandment and promise of life in the Law to Him that if He offered His life to save us in obedience to His Father and the Law He would live and be raised.




That's why I wrote earlier that the verse have to be read with other verse


John 4:23-24 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”


Pay keen attention that God has been called spirit in this verse....and it's the Father from this verse.....

1 Corinthians 2:9- 16
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”[d]

But we have the mind of Christ.


But we have the mind of Christ for the spirit revelas what is in the miñd of Christ who is our God now look at this other verse


Romans 8;9-11

But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.) 10 And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life[d] because you have been made right with God. 11 The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.
 

williamjordan

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2015
516
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so no this does not prove that Jesus is God the son because you know why then you will be admitting that Jesus has his begginigs i.e the Son came after the Father and not eternal as people say....and the answer is in that Hebrews 1 still and psalms ...I will use psalms to help abit

Psalms 2:7 I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:

He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father

so it means that the son was not the son always there is the beginning of sonship which leads me to believe that this is not a separate person after all


Hebrews 5:1-5

"Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. 3 This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. 4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was.

5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.”

Does sonship have beginnings?
Yes...sonship has its beginnings but Jesus is eternal ...always has.... but the son has his beginnings and there will be a time when the son will be humbled because the purpose of the son was for salvation but after the works of salvation are done and destroying sin, the son wont be needed again but Jesus will still remain as the Father of all....what am i saying ... before even creation God knew us perhaps he knew that man would fall and so he knew that to save man it could only be done through another man this son of God and that's what we see in Eden when we see the first prophecy of the bible about the seed. So it was this man to come who we reffer to as the son …but we know his origins is eternal however we know that the son has its beginnings but it was something God had planned even before creation to save mankind

Ephesians 1:4-5
Even before he made the world,
God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. 5 God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.

and then verse 9-10
God has now revealed to us his mysterious will regarding Christ—which is to fulfill his own good plan. 10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth.

the son was chosen before the world began for the purpose of salvation and defeating sin everywhere …he was the means through which God could rid creation of any evil...WE DONT know when God chose Jesus as his son … but what we know is that God himself says …today I have become your Father...so i believe that sonship has beginnings...Jesus doesn't have beginnings
Um, no. Allow me to demonstrate your error.

Heb. 1 is set with the exaltation of Christ in the backdrop. In 1:4, Christ (after making purifications for sin), “had sat down at the right hand of God.” Notice the parallel language here as in Acts 13:30-33, where Paul states,

“But God raised him from the dead, who appeared for many days to those who had come up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem—who are now his witnesses to the people. And we proclaim the good news to you: that the promise that was made to the fathers, this promise God has fulfilled to our children by raising Jesus, as it is also written in the second psalm, ‘You are my Son; today I have begotten you.’”
Picking up where we left off in Heb. 1:5, Paul then goes on to cite Ps. 2:7 (the very text he just cited in Acts 13:30-33),

“For to which of the angels did he ever say, ‘You are my son, today I have begotten you,’ and again, ‘I will be his father, and he will be my son’?”
This is then followed by a series of other OT citations with reference to the coronation of the King. In v. 6, the reference to “firstborn” is thematically linked to the “begotten” language in 1:5. After all, like Ps. 2:7 and 2 Sam. 7:14 regarding the Davidic king, 1:6 is likely also playing off this same theme (Ps. 89:27). But then v. 6 cites an OT-YHWH text in application of Christ (Deut. 32:43 LXX). This is then followed up by another OT-YHWH text in 1:7 (Ps. 104:4). In 1:8-9, this is likely drawing back onto kingly coronation themes as we just saw in 1:4-6. But in 1:10-12, notice the language being used:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, and like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not come to an end.”
In 1:7, where Ps. 104 had just been cited, notice that the very next verse (Ps. 104:5) speaks of YHWH as, “He established the earth upon its foundations.” Yet we hear that very same echo in Heb. 1:10–12. According to Ps. 104, “He” who “established the earth upon its foundations.” Yet, with it’s reference to Ps. 102, the epistle identifies the Son as that one—whom, according to Ps. 104—carried out the very specific action of laying the foundation of the earth. The author had just got done citing Ps. 104 in his contrast of the Lord Jesus from all created celestial beings, and now he’s citing Ps. 102 to show that, that same Lord Jesus is also the one whom Ps. 104:5 says, “established the earth upon its foundations.” Ps. 102:24-27 LXX was originally about the immutable and unchanging characteristics of YHWH, but the author of Hebrews applies it to none other than Jesus Christ (Heb. 1:10–12). That Ps. 104:4 (cf. Heb. 1:7) is used to distinguish between the “created” celestial beings, and the eternal and unchanging Lord, Jesus Christ; and that Ps. 104:5 is thematically and intertextually connected to Ps. 102:24–27—the use of both texts cohesively speak to the eternal nature of Jesus Christ.

Worth mentioning is that ἐθεμελίωσας (“founded”) is an active verb. Unitarian interpreters often times try to distant Christ from this action, arguing that it really should be taken in some “passive” sense. However, this is the same verb found in Ps. 104 (cf. Heb. 1:7), specifically Ps. 104:5. It is also the same verb used in Ps. 8 (specifically, Ps. 8:3), which is referenced in the very next chapter (Heb. 2:6), and it is also the same verb found in Prov. 8—used exclusively in contexts which speak about YHWH creating. Each of the OT pericopes in Hebrews 1–2 draw from contexts where the verb is used, and no one would dare argue that the term carries a “passive” sense in those texts. Yet, here when applied to Christ, it now all of a sudden is supposed to carry a different nuance, despite the fact that the author of the epistle gets his diction from the the OT contexts which are interweaved into his narrative? In each of the OT texts referenced throughout the narrative, ἐθεμελίωσας is something YHWH (exclusively) does. Even in the Wisdom literature, ἐθεμελίωσας is an act exclusive to YHWH, and does not mean anything substantively different than what is eludicated in each of the subject texts (Ps. 8, 102, 104, Deut. 32). In Ps. 8:3 and Ps. 104:4-5, who is it that performs ἐθεμελίωσας? And did the author intend it to be taken here in Heb. 1:10-12 in any way than from those texts he’s specifically alluding to and drawing from in the surrounding context?

Yet, who is it that performs this action according to Hebrews 1? The Son. Hebrews 1 is demonstrating for the reader that it is the Son that brought forth creation, and that this Son is the true King of Israel: the God of Israel. The Son of the Father, who pre-existed with the Father (Heb. 1:2-4), in a "You" (Heb. 1:10-11), "I" relationship.
 

Franc254

Active member
Oct 7, 2022
167
36
28
That's why I wrote earlier that the verse have to be read with other verse


John 4:23-24 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”


Pay keen attention that God has been called spirit in this verse....and it's the Father from this verse.....

1 Corinthians 2:9- 16
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”[d]

But we have the mind of Christ.


But we have the mind of Christ for the spirit revelas what is in the miñd of Christ who is our God now look at this other verse
Um, no. Allow me to demonstrate your error.

Heb. 1 is set with the exaltation of Christ in the backdrop. In 1:4, Christ (after making purifications for sin), “had sat down at the right hand of God.” Notice the parallel language here as in Acts 13:30-33, where Paul states,



Picking up where we left off in Heb. 1:5, Paul then goes on to cite Ps. 2:7 (the very text he just cited in Acts 13:30-33),



This is then followed by a series of other OT citations with reference to the coronation of the King. In v. 6, the reference to “firstborn” is thematically linked to the “begotten” language in 1:5. After all, like Ps. 2:7 and 2 Sam. 7:14 regarding the Davidic king, 1:6 is likely also playing off this same theme (Ps. 89:27). But then v. 6 cites an OT-YHWH text in application of Christ (Deut. 32:43 LXX). This is then followed up by another OT-YHWH text in 1:7 (Ps. 104:4). In 1:8-9, this is likely drawing back onto kingly coronation themes as we just saw in 1:4-6. But in 1:10-12, notice the language being used:



In 1:7, where Ps. 104 had just been cited, notice that the very next verse (Ps. 104:5) speaks of YHWH as, “He established the earth upon its foundations.” Yet we hear that very same echo in Heb. 1:10–12. According to Ps. 104, “He” who “established the earth upon its foundations.” Yet, with it’s reference to Ps. 102, the epistle identifies the Son as that one—whom, according to Ps. 104—carried out the very specific action of laying the foundation of the earth. The author had just got done citing Ps. 104 in his contrast of the Lord Jesus from all created celestial beings, and now he’s citing Ps. 102 to show that, that same Lord Jesus is also the one whom Ps. 104:5 says, “established the earth upon its foundations.” Ps. 102:24-27 LXX was originally about the immutable and unchanging characteristics of YHWH, but the author of Hebrews applies it to none other than Jesus Christ (Heb. 1:10–12). That Ps. 104:4 (cf. Heb. 1:7) is used to distinguish between the “created” celestial beings, and the eternal and unchanging Lord, Jesus Christ; and that Ps. 104:5 is thematically and intertextually connected to Ps. 102:24–27—the use of both texts cohesively speak to the eternal nature of Jesus Christ.

Worth mentioning is that ἐθεμελίωσας (“founded”) is an active verb. Unitarian interpreters often times try to distant Christ from this action, arguing that it really should be taken in some “passive” sense. However, this is the same verb found in Ps. 104 (cf. Heb. 1:7), specifically Ps. 104:5. It is also the same verb used in Ps. 8 (specifically, Ps. 8:3), which is referenced in the very next chapter (Heb. 2:6), and it is also the same verb found in Prov. 8—used exclusively in contexts which speak about YHWH creating. Each of the OT pericopes in Hebrews 1–2 draw from contexts where the verb is used, and no one would dare argue that the term carries a “passive” sense in those texts. Yet, here when applied to Christ, it now all of a sudden is supposed to carry a different nuance, despite the fact that the author of the epistle gets his diction from the the OT contexts which are interweaved into his narrative? In each of the OT texts referenced throughout the narrative, ἐθεμελίωσας is something YHWH (exclusively) does. Even in the Wisdom literature, ἐθεμελίωσας is an act exclusive to YHWH, and does not mean anything substantively different than what is eludicated in each of the subject texts (Ps. 8, 102, 104, Deut. 32). In Ps. 8:3 and Ps. 104:4-5, who is it that performs ἐθεμελίωσας? And did the author intend it to be taken here in Heb. 1:10-12 in any way than from those texts he’s specifically alluding to and drawing from in the surrounding context?

Yet, who is it that performs this action according to Hebrews 1? The Son. Hebrews 1 is demonstrating for the reader that it is the Son that brought forth creation, and that this Son is the true King: the God of Israel.
You have not addressed the issue when God said...today I have become your father....today....it's not like a complex thing....ooh andam not a Unitarian or Socinian ....I find some of their teachings wrong....

Then go ahead and explain Mathew 19:28 , 1st Corinthians 15:24-29, Rev 22:3 and Rev 14:9-11.....and use the Bible...and probably use a bible we all have access to ....to make things easier