'Turning from sin'

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Edify said:
Christ is in us, our hope of glory.
It only seems right because He is LORD, He would expect certain things for us to do for Him.
To me, working out our salvation with fear & trembling would include doing what Christ wants us to do.
Since when does God NOT expect obedience? Since when can we walk in full disobedience & expect our salvation to remain intact?
Apostasy will cause us to lose our salvation.
THAT is what the apostasy is about... falling away from God.
Judgment already is upon the house of God for its backslidings... Cant you see it?
But good news - God's judgment is to bring us back to Him... Restoration.
He is doing this to prepare His bride for His coming... a revival by God disiciplining His church.
Know that God is doing all things for our good! :)
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repent and be baptised, pretty simple..then God can work in us. He gives us grace which changes our hearts, we also need to renew our minds. This means obeying or yielding to the Holy Spirit.

Disicipline or chastising may not be comfortable at first but it yields fruit.

It does not mean ...Jesus saved me and I can continue to sin my life away. He paid the price, which is death
 
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Other thing people often forget is James letter saying faith without works is dead.

I guess people just prefer to be lazy lukewarm christians the kind Jesus spits out of his mouth?

Even ants who have no leader gather food during harvest.
 
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Lanolin said:
Other thing people often forget is James letter saying faith without works is dead.

I guess people just prefer to be lazy lukewarm christians the kind Jesus spits out of his mouth?

Even ants who have no leader gather food during harvest.
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Well, the thing with James 2, is what kind of faith is in question?

Because Abraham, Rahab etc.. all had faith before doing what they did.

Abraham.. was converted before offering up his son Isaac. Rahab used the faith she had to hide the people.. etc..

So it isn't saving faith in question...but what we do with the grace given to us. Abraham could have not done what he did and still had faith. Same with Rahab etc..

The works did not prove they were saved or be guaranteed that they would happen...but were voluntarily responses to Jesus giving them grace.
 
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Habakkuk 2:4, "Behold the proud, his soul is not right in him; but the just will live by faith."

“faith” is word #H530 אֱמוּנָה 'emuwnah (em-oo-naw') n-f., אֱמֻנָה 'emunah (em-oo-naw') [shortened], 1. (literally) firmness., 2. (figuratively) security., 3. (morally) fidelity.


[feminine of H529], KJV: faith(-ful, -ly, -ness, (man)), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily. , Root(s): H529

“faith” is word #H530 Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) 1) firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness

“faith” #H530 Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
Feminine of H0529; literally firmness; figuratively security; moral fidelity:—faith (-ful, -ly, -ness, [man]), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily.

Belief:

Genesis 15:6, "And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness.”

Genesis 15:4-6, "And see, the word of יהוה came to him, saying, “This one is not your heir, but he who comes from your own body is your heir. And He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward the heavens, and count the stars if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So are your seed. And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness."

Works:

Genesis 26:4-5, “And I shall increase your seed like the stars of the heavens, and I shall give all these lands to your seed. And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because Aḇraham obeyed My voice and guarded My Charge: My commands, My laws, and My Torah.”

Belief + Works:

James 2:21-22, “Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the altar? Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?”

Belief + Works:

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

“By belief, Aḇraham obeyed”

Hebrews 11
8, “By belief, Aḇraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he was about to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
9, By belief, he sojourned in the land of promise as a stranger, dwelling in tents with Yitsḥaq and Ya‛aqoḇ, the heirs with him of the same promise,"
10, "for he was looking for the city having foundations, whose builder and maker is Yah.
17, By belief, Aḇraham, when he was tried, offered up Yitsḥaq, and he who had received the promises offered up his only brought-forth son.”

Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”
 
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Ezekiyl 18:23, “Have I any pleasure in the death of the wrong?” declares the Master יהוה. “Is it not that he should turn from his ways, and live?”

2 Peter 3:9, “יהוה is not slow in regard to the promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward us, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”

Luke 13:3-5,3 “I say to you, no! But unless you repent you shall all perish in the same way."4 “Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Shiloaḥ fell and killed them, do you think that they were greater offenders than all other men who dwelt in Yerushalayim?"5 “I say to you, no! But unless you repent you shall all perish in the same way.”"

Mat 4:17, "From that time יהושע began to proclaim and to say, “Repent, for the reign of the heavens has drawn near.”
 
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HeIsHere said:
Paul is writing to speaking to saved people so this is not about spiritual salvation.

Paul is addressing a carnal church.

This is about temporal judgement.

So important to rightly divide!

Salvation is by faith through grace IN Christ Jesus not of works lest any man should boast, salvation is a gift.

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That's a good concise explanation.
At first reading years ago, I wish I had this written for me. Instead, I had a lordship salvationist who happened to be a 4 pointer give me a copy of his sermon notes. They taught heavy duty, industrial strength works.
I took each of his "proof texts" and with the Holy Spirit' s instructions, was able to come to totally different conclusions than the preacher. I used the basic rules of interpretation available to all and realized that salvation was not confusing as many preachers made it out to be . Why could all those preachers not see what the obvious meaning and applications were in those passages ?
 
Lanolin said:
Other thing people often forget is James letter saying faith without works is dead.

I guess people just prefer to be lazy lukewarm christians the kind Jesus spits out of his mouth?

Even ants who have no leader gather food during harvest.
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Nowhere does scripture state that the "luke warm" Christian church people in Laodicea are lazy.
 
wattie said:
Well, the thing with James 2, is what kind of faith is in question?

Because Abraham, Rahab etc.. all had faith before doing what they did.

Abraham.. was converted before offering up his son Isaac. Rahab used the faith she had to hide the people.. etc..

So it isn't saving faith in question...but what we do with the grace given to us. Abraham could have not done what he did and still had faith. Same with Rahab etc..

The works did not prove they were saved or be guaranteed that they would happen...but were voluntarily responses to Jesus giving them grace.
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True, Abraham was not giving us an example of how to be saved by submitting to that ultimate test of faith. He did not demand that in order for him to be saved.
He was providing a John 3:16 for the O.T. That pictured the offering of his only begotten son. God supplied Himself a sacrifice.
He believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness. Faith in the Lord was the requirement in the O.T. as in the New.
Now the members have to come to terms with the fact that their old pastor's lied to them all of those years.
 
At the heart of this discussion is, at salvation what do you trust in?

Trusting in 'turning from sin' 'commiting your life to Christ ' 'making Him Lord of your life'...

Or trusting in Jesus Christ alone , by grace alone , thru faith alone.

So is it trusting in what you are doing.. or what Jesus Has done and is doing?

That is the heart of the matter. Where the trust lies at salvation. It's got be 100 percent Jesus and zero percent us .

Committing your life to Christ and turning from sin obviously are Godly desires ..but how can you do these without first being delivered from sin?
 
wattie said:
In most tracts today, a form of this phrase is put with how to get saved. As well as believing on Jesus Christ, 'commiting your life to Christ '..
'turning from sin'... 'making Him Lord of your life'. .. are put in with 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ '

The issue with these phrases..is if we are taking about good behaviour/works integrated into believing on Jesus Christ..then that doesn't cut it for salvation.

Salvation is simply and purely ..
Believing Jesus is God, that He died and rose again on the third day, and that by believing in Him you have eternal life. John 3:16,5:24.. Romans 10-9-10. Ephesians 2:8-9 etc.

Of course you gotta know you are a sinner and be convicted of that fact by God to believe on Jesus Christ..but that isn't a work of effort or active behaviour of lessening our sin as well as believing.

'God be merciful to me, a sinner'. Is all thats needed
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By grace thru faith is how it's done.
English Standard Version
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

through -
Strong's Concordance
dia: through, on account of, because of
Original Word: διά
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: dia
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ah')
Definition: through, on account of, because of
Usage: (a) gen: through, throughout, by the instrumentality of, (b) acc: through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of.

HELPS Word-studies
1223 diá (a preposition) – properly, across (to the other side), back-and-forth to go all the way through, "successfully across" ("thoroughly"). 1223 (diá) is also commonly used as a prefix and lend the same idea ("thoroughly," literally, "successfully" across to the other side).
[1223 (diá) is a root of the English term diameter ("across to the other side, through"). Before a vowel, dia is simply written di̓.]

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
1. of continued time; hence,
a. of the time throughout (during) which anything is done: Matthew 26:61; Mark 14:58; δἰ ὅλης (τῆς R G) νυκτός, Luke 5:5; διά παντός τοῦ ζῆν, Hebrews 2:15; διά παντός (so L WH Tr (except Mark 5:5; Luke 24:53)), or written together διαπαντός (so G T (except in Matt.); cf. Winers Grammar, 46 (45); Lipsius, Gram. Unters., p. 125), continually, always: Matthew 18:10; Mark 5:5; Luke 24:53; Acts 2:25 (from Psalm 15:8 ()); ; Romans 11:10 (from Psalm 68:24 ()); 2 Thessalonians 3:16; Hebrews 9:6; Hebrews 13:15 (often in Greek writings).

Since the Bible tells us to pray without ceasing(1 Thessalonians 5:17), then we can conclude we must believe without ceasing, otherwise our prayers would be in vain.
So this faith must be used across our entire lives.

Matthew 10:22
English Standard Version
and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures(believes) to the end will be saved.
 
JohnDB said:
But the question/statement is misformed and illogical.

It's like saying that orange blossom odor causes oranges.

Remember the verse repeated so often in scriptures?

Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.

It's repeated ad nauseum IN SCRIPTURE and people seem to somehow deliberately forget it.
Faith is the action item necessary for our salvation....faith causes attitudes, reactions, and etc which are referred to as Fruits of the Spirit by scriptures.
Because I believe....I live in a manner in keeping with what God has said.

And where you might sit on the floor....most people don't.
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Salvation is accomplished in a moment in time, do you believe this or do you think salvation occurs over time by ongoing faith?

A person can squelch/suppress/grieve the Spirit and walk in the flesh because we are not automatons.
A with most people here on CC you use your own personal experience as the litmus test for truth, that is not how it works.
There are carnal Christians.


works2.JPG
 
Edify said:
Since the Bible tells us to pray without ceasing(1 Thessalonians 5:17), then we can conclude we must believe without ceasing, otherwise our prayers would be in vain.
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We are "declared just" right with God in a moment in time.
Scripture is quite clear on this.
 
Edify said:
And the permanence of that is dependent on us continuing in the faith, with works following.
Jesus said a branch without fruit is thrown in the fire & burned.
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It is really sad when people misinterpret scripture and accuse Jesus of things He never stated.
Salvation is not earned or maintained by good behaviour. Full stop.
 
HeIsHere said:
It is really sad when people misinterpret scripture and accuse Jesus of things He never stated.
Salvation is not earned or maintained by good behaviour. Full stop.
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What then happens to those who talk a good talk but don't walk the walk? They were never saved in the first place?!?
 
HeIsHere said:
How many sins?
So I give up something in order to receive.

That means salvation is earned, yet scripture states very clearly..

Now the wages of the worker are not credited as a gift, but as an obligation.
However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness ...
Romans 4:4
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King James Bible
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

I would by many be called all kinds of evil for repeating Jesus (Yahshua) but the reality is that He is correct when He says "to give to each according to his work" Rev 22

Exodus 23:7, “Keep yourself far from a false matter, and do not kill the innocent and the righteous, for I do not declare the wrong right.”

King James Bible
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

New King James Version
Keep yourself far from a false matter; do not kill the innocent and righteous. For I will not justify the wicked.

American Standard Version
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

English Revised Version
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

NET Bible
Keep your distance from a false charge--do not kill the innocent and the righteous, for I will not justify the wicked.

New Heart English Bible
"Keep far from a false charge, and do not kill the innocent and righteous: for I will not justify the wicked.

Webster's Bible Translation
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

John 5:28-30, “Don't be amazed at this, because the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and will come out—those who have done what is good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced what is evil to the resurrection of condemnation. I can do nothing on my own accord. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will but the will of the one who sent me.”

Revelation 22:10-13, "And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart. “And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work. (Mat 16:27, Joh 5:29) “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."
 
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Edify said:
What then happens to those who talk a good talk but don't walk the walk? They were never saved in the first place?!?
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James 1:12, "Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him."

Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”

Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”

Hebrews 10:36-38, “For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of Yah you may receive what is promised. 37 For yet a little while – He who is coming shall come and shall not delay. 38 But the righteous shall live by belief, but if anyone draws back, my being has no pleasure in him.”

Romans 10:9, “That if you confess with your mouth the Master יהושע and believe in your heart that Elohim has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, and so is saved."

Future tense...

“shall be saved” is word #G4982 [e] sōthēsē - σωθήσῃ· - you will be saved. σωθήσῃ (sōthēsē) — 3 Occurrences

Acts 11:14 V-FIP-2S
GRK: ἐν οἷς σωθήσῃ σὺ καὶ
NAS: to you by which you will be saved,
KJV: thy house shall be saved.
INT: whereby which will be saved you and

Acts 16:31 V-FIP-2S
GRK: Ἰησοῦν καὶ σωθήσῃ σὺ καὶ
NAS: Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.
KJV: and thou shalt be saved, and thy
INT: Jesus and you will be saved you and

Romans 10:9 V-FIP-2S
GRK: ἐκ νεκρῶν σωθήσῃ
NAS: Him from the dead, you will be saved;
KJV: from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
INT: from among [the] dead you will be saved

Thinking or declaring ones self saved does not make it true or false...

Yah is the judge

John 5:21-30,21 “For as the Father raises the dead and makes alive, even so the Son makes alive whom He wishes."22 “For the Father judges no one, but has given all the judgment to the Son,"23 that all should value the Son even as they value the Father. He who does not value the Son does not value the Father who sent Him."24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me possesses everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of Elohim. And those having heard shall live."26 “For as the Father possesses life in Himself, so He gave also to the Son to possess life in Himself,"27 and He has given Him authority also to do judgment, because He is the Son of Aḏam."28 “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice,"29 and shall come forth – those who have practiced righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment."30 “Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me."

James 1:12, "Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him."
 
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