Faith alone, faith plus works? Something is missing in this discussion

[Lamar]

Starting with, you do not have to accept God's grace, for that is a work, which nullifies grace .

Do you mean: you cannot accept God's grace since that would be a work, which nullifies grace.

 

[Lamar]

This makes no sense why would you do this?

Do you not believe in apostasy???

 

[NightTwister]

That is not what happens though

Jesus paid for everyone's sin, He did not pay for the sin of unbelief

that's why he said over and over we must believe..

he also said he who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already why?? Because Christ did nto die for them? No, Because they did not believe

That's exactly what happens though.

Jesus paid for ALL of the sins of those who will be saved. While it was sufficient for everyone, but it's not for everyone. For those whose sins were paid for, they will believe.

 

[Inquisitor]

"So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." Romans 9:16 ESV

A little more of the context.

Romans 9:21
Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use?

Romans 9:25
As He also says in Hosea: “I will call those who were not My people, My people, and her who was not beloved, beloved.”

Those in whom God formerly knew were rejected in favor of those God, had not known previously.

The chosen, the elect, were passed over and those who were not loved were, in fact, loved by God.

 

[Inquisitor]

And not only so, but Ge 25:21
" href="https://app.logos.com/books/LLS:1.0.710/references/bible+esv.66.9.10?registration_source_host=biblia.com#" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);

And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” Romans 9:10-13

Are you saying that only Rebekah was saved?

Or was Rebekah chosen for a purpose?

 

[studentoftheword]

Romans chapter 9 is God telling us through Paul that while all were all going to perish due to sin, He saved some through His Grace.[/QUOTE]

First Off I am not a Dude ----

Second your into Calvinism ---which is what I through -------so sad ------

this statement gives you away ------
He saved some through His Grace

Calvinist use Romans 8 and 9 for their proof text ------

------------------------------------Now the rest of this is Not for you ---but for others who just might be interested in read this ---

But this statement alone refutes that theory ----verse 4------


1 Timothy 2:1-6

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

2 First of all, then, I admonish and urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be offered on behalf of all men,
2 For kings and all who are in positions of authority or high responsibility, that [outwardly] we may pass a quiet and undisturbed life [and inwardly] a peaceable one in all godliness and reverence and seriousness in every way.
3 For such [praying] is good and right, and [it is] pleasing and acceptable to God our Savior,

4 Who wishes all men to be saved and [increasingly] to perceive and recognize and discern and know precisely and correctly the [divine] Truth.

5 For there [is only] one God, and [only] one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 Who gave Himself as a ransom for all [people, a fact that was] attested to at the right and proper time.

I say ----
So your theory that God in in control of saving some and sending some to Hell is False Doctrine -----and it shows your WRONGLY DIVIDING GOD"S WORD ----

SO Folks Run Forest Run from this person's Doctrine as it goes against Scripture ------

Also Romans 9 is Paul addressing his concern for Israel who have rejected the Messiah -----and so He is explaining the process that God chose who He wanted to carry out His PLAN which God Planed before He Created this World ----

No one can change God's plan nor can anyone change the people God predestined to be a part of His plan -----God's Grace --has no dealing in Romans 9 -----as God already had all players in his foreknowledge before He created this world so He could bring His plan into existence to bring His Son to dwell on this earth to save mankind -------so here is the thing ------God allowed Noah to have His free will until God called him to build the Ark -----God allowed Abraham to have his free will to worship the moon until God called him to go to a land that God directed him to ------

This word called ----in Hebrew is

Lexicon
qara: to call, proclaim,
to summon, call and commission,

So God called and they immediately obeyed ------as they were predestined to recognize God's voice and obey His Command so His plan could be carried out -------Isaac was predestined as the son of Abraham before God created this world ---Isaac was part of the plan as was Jacob -----and you see that in the Scripture here ------saying that not all Jews are people of the PROMISE made to Abraham ------

6 I don’t mean that God failed to keep his promise to the Jewish people. But only some of the people of Israel are really God’s people.
7 And only some of Abraham’s descendants are true children of Abraham. This is what God said to Abraham: “Your true descendants will be those who come through Isaac.”[c]

8 This means that not all of Abraham’s descendants are God’s true children. Abraham’s true children are those who become God’s children because of the promise he made to Abraham.

9 Here is what God said in that promise: “About this time next year I will come back, and Sarah will have a son.”

All this has nothing to do with God's Grace ---This is all about God invoking His Plan so that it plays out the way He wants it to ------

Jacob was chosen before he was born to be a Child of the promise ---and that is in this scripture -----Jacob -----Paul is explaining to His audience that God had a PLAN and these people were chosen to be apart of God's plan ------God was not playing favorites with humans ------and showing unmarried favor to certain people -----He had made His choice before this world was formed ------

Rebecca also had sons, and they had the same father. He is our father Isaac. 11-12 But before the two sons were born, God told Rebecca, “The older son will serve the younger.”[e] This was before the boys had done anything good or bad. God said this before they were born so that the boy he wanted would be chosen because of God’s own plan. He was chosen because he was the one God wanted to call, not because of anything the boys did. 13 As the Scriptures say, “I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau.”[f]

I say --God didn't hate Esau Folks--- if you read Genesis 36 you see God had blessed Esau --He and Jacob had so much they had to split and move away from each other ---

Genesis 36

6 Now Esau took his wives and his sons and his daughters and all the members of his household, and his livestock and all his cattle and all his possessions which he had acquired in the land of Canaan, and he went to a land away from his brother Jacob.

7 For their [great flocks and herds and] possessions made it impossible for them to live together [in the same region]; the land in which they lived temporarily could not support them because of their livestock. 8 So Esau lived in the hill country of Seir; Esau is Edom.

I say
If you read the Scripture in Romans 9 ---it is very plain in what it is talking about ----It is God's Plan ------it is Not about God's Grace picking and choosing certain people over others ---it was all about the Children of the Promise -----God was honoring His predestined promise He would make to Abraham ---

I say -----Pharaoh is the other person mentioned in this Scripture and he also was predestined to be a participant in God's plan in Egypt and the scripture tells you why -----

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “I raised you up for this very purpose, to display My power in [dealing with] you, and so that My name would be proclaimed in all the earth.”

I say ---So here we see that God before the foundation of this world was formed This Pharaoh was in God's plan ------and by the way God doesn't harden hearts Folks ---Pharaoh's heart was already hardened toward God ----He was worshiping another god and God allowed Pharaoh to have his free will to choose his god to worship -----God just allowed Pharaoh to keep His hardened heart as it was already -----

The Scripture is very clear that God Shows no Favoritism ---to anyone ------

Romans 2:11
Amplified Bible
For God shows no partiality [no arbitrary favoritism; with Him one person is not more important than another

I say
When it comes to His plan which is still playing out ------all is in place already for that --and all people have already been picked before the foundation of this earth was formed -------just like Jeremiah was

Jeremiah 1:5

Amplified Bible
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you [and approved of you as My chosen instrument], And before you were born I consecrated you [to Myself as My own]; I have appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

 

[NightTwister]

Are you saying that only Rebekah was saved?

Or was Rebekah chosen for a purpose?

I didn't say either.

 

[NightTwister]

Once the insults come I just ignore the rest.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Well said. If works do not follow after Grace has been received, it's dead faith. That kind of faith is not what our Lord Jesus taught, and saves no one.

Ephesians 2
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Then why would carnal (1Co 3:1) Corinthians ("...sanctified in Christ Jesus..."
1Co 1:2), not "walking in good works," be saved On Judgment Day, having
"bad works" (1Co 5:5; 1Co 3:8-15)?

How did their "dead faith" save them?:

1Co 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:
but he himself Shall Be Saved; yet so as by fire."

------------------------

"faith PLUS works" was under prophecy/covenants, and the law. However, If we:

Rightly Divide that (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

In God's Other Context of Grace, In His "Revelation Of The Mystery"
(Romans - Philemon), we find a Totally Different picture, because of:

Christ's ALL-Sufficient Work On The Cross! we, now receive God's
Eternal Salvation by:

"Grace Through faith" only, And Also:

We now know all of The Following Plain And Clear Scriptures, about
what happens at "the Very Moment" of that "Grace Through faith!:"

God's OPERATION On all HIS New-born babes In Christ!

God's Eternal Assurance!

God's Eternal Life Insurance!

Conclusion: Must be "living faith" then, because of:

Rom 3:24 Being Justified Freely By His Grace​

Through The Redemption that is in Christ Jesus:​

+

Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him​

That Justifieth the ungodly, his faith Is Counted for righteousness."​

​

Amen.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

There is indeed a Grace, it is called no condemnation, a Peace of mind, and complete Serenity. It came at a Cost, that no one could ever afford. And it was paid for, by the Act of Grace, upon the Cross.
But, in no way or shape, is it an excuse, to soothe the consciousness.

 

[studentoftheword]

Romans chapter 9 is God telling us through Paul that while all were all going to perish due to sin, He saved some through His Grace.[/QUOTE]

First Off I am not a Dude ----

Second your into Calvinism ---which is what I through -------so sad ------

this statement gives you away ------
He saved some through His Grace

Calvinist use Romans 8 and 9 for their proof text ------

-----------------------------------

But this statement alone refutes that theory ----verse 4------


1 Timothy 2:1-6

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

2 First of all, then, I admonish and urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be offered on behalf of all men,
2 For kings and all who are in positions of authority or high responsibility, that [outwardly] we may pass a quiet and undisturbed life [and inwardly] a peaceable one in all godliness and reverence and seriousness in every way.
3 For such [praying] is good and right, and [it is] pleasing and acceptable to God our Savior,

4 Who wishes all men to be saved and [increasingly] to perceive and recognize and discern and know precisely and correctly the [divine] Truth.

5 For there [is only] one God, and [only] one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 Who gave Himself as a ransom for all [people, a fact that was] attested to at the right and proper time.

I say ----
So your theory that God in in control of saving some and sending some to Hell is False Doctrine -----and it shows your WRONGLY DIVIDING GOD"S WORD ----

SO Folks Run Forest Run from this person's Doctrine as it goes against Scripture ------

Also Romans 9 is Paul addressing his concern for Israel who have rejected the Messiah -----and so He is explaining the process that God chose who He wanted to carry out His PLAN which God Planed before He Created this World ----

No one can change God's plan nor can anyone change the people God predestined to be a part of His plan -----God's Grace --has no dealing in Romans 9 -----as God already had all players in his foreknowledge before He created this world so He could bring His plan into existence to bring His Son to dwell on this earth to save mankind -------so here is the thing ------God allowed Noah to have His free will until God called him to build the Ark -----God allowed Abraham to have his free will to worship the moon until God called him to go to a land that God directed him to ------

This word called ----in Hebrew is

Lexicon
qara: to call, proclaim,
to summon, call and commission,

So God called and they immediately obeyed ------as they were predestined to recognize God's voice and obey His Command so His plan could be carried out -------Isaac was predestined as the son of Abraham before God created this world ---Isaac was part of the plan as was Jacob -----and you see that in the Scripture here ------saying that not all Jews are people of the PROMISE made to Abraham ------

6 I don’t mean that God failed to keep his promise to the Jewish people. But only some of the people of Israel are really God’s people.
7 And only some of Abraham’s descendants are true children of Abraham. This is what God said to Abraham: “Your true descendants will be those who come through Isaac.”[c]

8 This means that not all of Abraham’s descendants are God’s true children. Abraham’s true children are those who become God’s children because of the promise he made to Abraham.

9 Here is what God said in that promise: “About this time next year I will come back, and Sarah will have a son.”

All this has nothing to do with God's Grace ---This is all about God invoking His Plan so that it plays out the way He wants it to ------

Jacob was chosen before he was born to be a Child of the promise ---and that is in this scripture -----Jacob -----Paul is explaining to His audience that God had a PLAN and these people were chosen to be apart of God's plan ------God was not playing favorites with humans ------and showing unmarried favor to certain people -----He had made His choice before this world was formed ------

Rebecca also had sons, and they had the same father. He is our father Isaac. 11-12 But before the two sons were born, God told Rebecca, “The older son will serve the younger.”[e] This was before the boys had done anything good or bad. God said this before they were born so that the boy he wanted would be chosen because of God’s own plan. He was chosen because he was the one God wanted to call, not because of anything the boys did. 13 As the Scriptures say, “I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau.”[f]

I say --God didn't hate Esau Folks--- if you read Genesis 36 you see God had blessed Esau --He and Jacob had so much they had to split and move away from each other ---

Genesis 36

6 Now Esau took his wives and his sons and his daughters and all the members of his household, and his livestock and all his cattle and all his possessions which he had acquired in the land of Canaan, and he went to a land away from his brother Jacob.

7 For their [great flocks and herds and] possessions made it impossible for them to live together [in the same region]; the land in which they lived temporarily could not support them because of their livestock. 8 So Esau lived in the hill country of Seir; Esau is Edom.

I say
If you read the Scripture in Romans 9 ---it is very plain in what it is talking about ----It is God's Plan ------it is Not about God's Grace picking and choosing certain people over others ---it was all about the Children of the Promise -----God was honoring His predestined promise He would make to Abraham ---

I say -----Pharaoh is the other person mentioned in this Scripture and he also was predestined to be a participant in God's plan in Egypt and the scripture tells you why -----

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “I raised you up for this very purpose, to display My power in [dealing with] you, and so that My name would be proclaimed in all the earth.”

I say ---So here we see that God before the foundation of this world was formed This Pharaoh was in God's plan ------and by the way God doesn't harden hearts Folks ---Pharaoh's heart was already hardened toward God ----He was worshiping another god and God allowed Pharaoh to have his free will to choose his god to worship -----God just allowed Pharaoh to keep His hardened heart as it was already -----

The Scripture is very clear that God Shows no Favoritism ---to anyone ------

Romans 2:11
Amplified Bible
For God shows no partiality [no arbitrary favoritism; with Him one person is not more important than another

I say
When it comes to His plan which is still playing out ------all is in place already for that --and all people have already been picked before the foundation of this earth was formed -------just like Jeremiah was

Jeremiah 1:5

Amplified Bible
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you [and approved of you as My chosen instrument], And before you were born I consecrated you [to Myself as My own]; I have appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Once the insults come I just ignore the rest.

too funny ----

another

statement


Scripture you can dispute ------

 

[Magenta]

Do you mean: you cannot accept God's grace since that would be a work, which nullifies grace.

No.

 

[NightTwister]

too funny ----

another

statement


Scripture you can dispute ------

View attachment 254409

Grow up

 

[Cameron143]

Do you mean: you cannot accept God's grace since that would be a work, which nullifies grace.

God's grace is either given or not. It doesn't require acceptance. God causes the sun to shine on the just and unjust. We don't accept the sunshine or not. It just is or is not extended.

 

[07-07-07]

1Co 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:
but he himself Shall Be Saved; yet so as by fire."

Walking in God's holiness and righteousness is not "works", so you're in error of understanding of what it means to be saved. Are we perfect? No. Walking in the Spirit and not after the works of the flesh does not require perfection, but rather our reasonable conduct to be fit for the Kingdom of God.

Who belongs to the Lord? It’s one thing to profess Salvation, it’s quite another for it to be a living reality.

Galatians 5
[24] And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

God sees a born again believer through the divine blood of Jesus Christ His Son. If the divine blood of Jesus truly has power in a believer’s life, then he/she is a new creation, one who walks in God’s holiness and righteousness. The works of the flesh are crucified, and the way of the Spirit takes control.

Galatians 5
[19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness
[20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[studentoftheword]

NightTwister
Scripture you can't dispute ------

[/QUOTE]

 

[studentoftheword]

Grow up

Again TOOOoooooo FUNNY

 

[Lamar]

No.

You sure about that?
This is what you wrote:
Magenta said:
Starting with, you do not have to accept God's grace, for that is a work, which nullifies grace .

I replied:
Do you mean: you cannot accept God's grace since that would be a work, which nullifies grace.

You replied: No.

So I can choose to reject the grace of God.

Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[Magenta]

You sure about that?
This is what you wrote:
Magenta said:
Starting with, you do not have to accept God's grace, for that is a work, which nullifies grace .

I replied:
Do you mean: you cannot accept God's grace since that would be a work, which nullifies grace.

You replied: No.

So I can choose to reject the grace of God.

Am I understanding you correctly?

I was giving the perspective of Calvinists here. I said what I meant, though to be sure, they hold
varying views. However, I have been told that there is basically absolutely nothing required of us,
not even accepting that which God extends to us. To the point where having to accept what God
extends amounts to a work, and nullifies grace. They make themselves sound like puppets.

 

[Nehemiah6]

But, in no way or shape, is it an excuse, to soothe the consciousness.

"Conscience". Not if you go on sinning. But if you repent and turn away from all your sins and idols, your "conscience" will be at rest. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. (1 John 3:21) Christ took all our sins and guilt upon Himself -- all our iniquities were laid on Him.