Faith alone, faith plus works? Something is missing in this discussion

[Radius]

Not buying it. If I said "I have faith in myself," then I could see how the focus has shifted from God to me. But simply saying my faith is in the Lord in no way implies I think I can save myself. You've taken some strange idea and turned it into a way for people to feel guilty for no reason.

its so clear to see. some people just have backwards thinking.

 

[Nehemiah6]

And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” Romans 9:10-13

Now we are really stretching it. This is a totally different issue, as you should already know. Here the twelve tribes of Jacob would be deemed as the chosen nation of God. What you and others fail to understand is that in spite this the nation of Israel -- by and large -- excluded itself from God's grace and mercy.

ROMANS 10: A DISOBEDIENT AND GAINSAYING PEOPLE
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

So throwing out Scriptures without a proper understanding of grace does not help anyone. We need to take everything into account.

 

[studentoftheword]

There's no biblical support for your description of Special Grace. Grace in every case is "unmerited favor." That's not something you can accept or reject. It would no longer be "unmerited" if you could.

I strongly disagree with your comment here ------I don't think you fully understand what Grace entails

What your missing is -----Grace can be a Gift -------

Strong's #5485: charis (pronounced khar'-ece)

from 5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).
what is due to grace
a gift of grace

I say -------Salvation is a Gift from God who is full of Grace -----

Grace in the New Testament is a PERSON ---Not a Thing -------as it says here ---Jesus is full of Grace (Favor and loving kindness )------and because He is full of Grace He makes available to us what we do not deserve ----Salvation ---but we have free will to accept the gift offered or refuse it ------

That doesn't change the meaning of Grace --it is still offered as an undeserved gift to all who want to take advantage of it ------but our Free will is there to make our choice -------

John 1:14

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

14 And the Word (Christ) became flesh (human, incarnate) and tabernacled (fixed His tent of flesh, lived awhile) among us; and we [actually] saw His glory (His honor, His majesty), such glory as an only begotten son receives from his father, full of grace (favor, loving-kindness) and truth.


So God IN HIS GRACE ____MADE AVAILABLE _____SALVATION for all who will Receive it ------

 

[NightTwister]

Now we are really stretching it. This is a totally different issue, as you should already know. Here the twelve tribes of Jacob would be deemed as the chosen nation of God. What you and others fail to understand is that in spite this the nation of Israel -- by and large -- excluded itself from God's grace and mercy.

ROMANS 10: A DISOBEDIENT AND GAINSAYING PEOPLE
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

So throwing out Scriptures without a proper understanding of grace does not help anyone. We need to take everything into account.

Read Romans 9. It has all the context you need.

 

[NightTwister]

I strongly disagree with your comment here ------I don't think you fully understand what Grace entails

What your missing is -----Grace can be a Gift -------

Strong's #5485: charis (pronounced khar'-ece)

from 5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).
what is due to grace
a gift of grace

I say -------Salvation is a Gift from God who is full of Grace -----

Grace in the New Testament is a PERSON ---Not a Thing -------as it says here ---Jesus is full of Grace (Favor and loving kindness )------and because He is full of Grace He makes available to us what we do not deserve ----Salvation ---but we have free will to accept the gift offered or refuse it ------

That doesn't change the meaning of Grace --it is still offered as an undeserved gift to all who want to take advantage of it ------but our Free will is there to make our choice -------

John 1:14

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

14 And the Word (Christ) became flesh (human, incarnate) and tabernacled (fixed His tent of flesh, lived awhile) among us; and we [actually] saw His glory (His honor, His majesty), such glory as an only begotten son receives from his father, full of grace (favor, loving-kindness) and truth.


So God IN HIS GRACE ____MADE AVAILABLE _____SALVATION for all who will Receive it ------

TL;DR -- No need to add to what's there.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Read Romans 9. It has all the context you need.

You are the one who should be reading and UNDERSTANDING what it teaches. You are actually quite confused. Let's hope you do not confuse others.

 

[NightTwister]

You are the one who should be reading and UNDERSTANDING what it teaches. You are actually quite confused. Let's hope you do not confuse others.

I already understand it. Clearly.

 

[studentoftheword]

TL;DR -- No need to add to what's there.

Didn't read to long --The Big

Statement

EXCUSES ___EXCUSES ____EXCUSES ----

 

[NightTwister]

Didn't read to long --The Big

Statement

EXCUSES ___EXCUSES ____EXCUSES ----

Weird. Everything you need is in Romans 9.

 

[Gideon300]

Because it's a promise:

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 2 Peter 3: 9

I think this verse establishes three basic truths:

1. God wants all to choose salvation over eternal death.

2. To be saved, we must come to repentance.

3. God promises to save us when we do.

Well I think that God had already had chosen Abraham to be the Father of many nations before He created this World ------ God had a plan in place before He ever created this World and had all His people picked out before hand that He was going to use to bring His plan into place ---- they were Predestined to be in the roles they were before they were born -----Noah ---Abraham ---Jacob ----Moses ----Elijah ---Enoch ---Jeremiah ----Jonah---David ---etc --etc ----all predestined before they were born to be God's chosen to bring His plan about ----and His plan is still playing out to this day ----

View attachment 254325

In the Old Testament -----God's Call came first ----obedience was their faith in Action to God's call ---therefore their Faith in God was shown and through their obedience which was their Faith in Him God counted them righteous ----

I say ----God called Abraham and Abraham obeyed which showed His Faith and trust in God -----I believe Abraham was chosen and separated for God purpose before he was born -----


Genesis 12

New International Version

The Call of Abram
12 The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.

2 “I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.[a]
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”[b]

4 So Abram went, as the Lord had told him;



Jeremiah 1:4-5

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

4 Then the word of the Lord came to me [Jeremiah], saying,

5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew [and] approved of you [as My chosen instrument], and before you were born I separated and set you apart, consecrating you; [and] I appointed you as a prophet to the nations

Yes He is.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". He either obligated Himself with that statement or He's a liar.

Now that is nitpicking pedantry. God could have destroyed the whole human race and started again. That way He would not have needed to send Jesus to die for us. God owes humanity nothing. We owe Him everything.

 

[JohnRH]

Now that is nitpicking pedantry. God could have destroyed the whole human race and started again.

Started what again? Obligating Himself again, after finking on His first obligation?
You're hypothesizing.
The historical reality is that He SAID He would save people; and having said it, He obligated Himself to do exactly what He said.

That way He would not have needed to send Jesus to die for us. God owes humanity nothing. We owe Him everything.

Of course He doesn't owe humanity anything because He pre-paid the price. The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world before humanity existed.

"Obligated" and "owe" aren't the same thing.

 

[listenyoumustAll]

A few years ago, God asked me a question. He said, "How were you saved?" I replied, "By grace". He said, "What saved you yesterday? "I thought for a moment, and said, "Grace". He said, "And what saves you today?" The answer was obvious. I am saved by grace every day. So are you.

The problem with emphasising faith is that it puts the attention on us. When we focus on the grace of God, we are looking at Jesus who loved us and gave Himself for us. Don't kid yourselves, no one has faith unless God gives it to us. Faith comes through hearing the word of Christ. (Romans 10:17). It is no coincidence when someone preaches the gospel to us. God arranges the time and place for us to hear the Word. Our part is to respond to the preaching of the gospel.

God is not obliged to save anyone. All have sinned and fall short of His glory. Yet His great love activates His grace and multitudes have been saved. Why some and not others is a mystery. That anyone is saved is a miracle.

Yes the part of the hearer is to listen and walk in the newness of life . Hallelujah! Apostle outlines the walk of the Chosen .2 Peter 1:5-8,10(KJV) And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

 

[listenyoumustAll]

Now we are really stretching it. This is a totally different issue, as you should already know. Here the twelve tribes of Jacob would be deemed as the chosen nation of God. What you and others fail to understand is that in spite this the nation of Israel -- by and large -- excluded itself from God's grace and mercy.

ROMANS 10: A DISOBEDIENT AND GAINSAYING PEOPLE
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

So throwing out Scriptures without a proper understanding of grace does not help anyone. We need to take everything into account.

So correct my brother , and through even the disobedience of Israel the whole world is blessed . Jesus himself spoke to the Pharisees.
Matthew 21:43-44(KJV) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

 

[JohnRH]

"So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." Romans 9:16 ESV

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Romans 9:16 (KJV)

The "it" isn't the eternal salvation of an individual; it's the temporary setting aside of Israel for service. Paul could wish himself accursed for the sake of the Israelites until the cows came home, but that would just have been his futile willing & running.

Here is God's willing & running:
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Romans 11:32 (KJV)

 

[NightTwister]

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Romans 9:16 (KJV)

The "it" isn't the eternal salvation of an individual; it's the temporary setting aside of Israel for service. Paul could wish himself accursed for the sake of the Israelites until the cows came home, but that would just have been his futile willing & running.

Here is God's willing & running:
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Romans 11:32 (KJV)

KJVO is the literal definition of the circular reasoning fallacy. Often, those who cling to it, completely misunderstand what scripture is saying as you do here.

 

[studentoftheword]

I already understand it. Clearly.

Haven;t read all of your posts on this topic so have you shown in any of your post that you have a clear understanding of what ROMANS 9 is saying ????????????????????????----

I would be interested to read your interpretation of what you PERCEIVE that ROMANS 9 is saying to you -----as where you are in your Faith walk with Christ -------as the Holy spirit will only reveal what knowledge you can handle ----

------so what is your take on this Chapter 9 in Romans ??????

I will wait for your reply ------all you keep saying that I have read is ---Everything you need is in Romans 9.

So what is it that you need people to know in this Chapter of Romans 9 ----what are you trying to get across ----

 

[Nehemiah6]

So what is it that you need people to know in this Chapter of Romans 9 ----what are you trying to get across ----

So what he is trying to get across is that you should ignore Romans 10 and 11, and also the earlier chapters. That will certainly clarify Romans 9 -- a one horse race.

 

[Blade]

Troubling statements for me "God is not obliged to save anyone. All have sinned and fall short of His glory. Yet His great love activates His grace and multitudes have been saved. Why some and not others is a mystery. That anyone is saved is a miracle. "

"God could have destroyed the whole human race and started again. That way He would not have needed to send Jesus to die for us. God owes humanity nothing. We owe Him everything. "

Within the 1st post I would ask Him "Can you give me chapter and verse". what saves me today? For by grace you have been saved through faith. Have been not day to day that is not written. Like the song right now I KNOW YOU WONT LET ME GO! Now faith.. we all have been given the measure of faith and if we had the faith the size of a mustered seed we can tell the tree to be picked up and cast into the sea and it must obey YOU! We are created in the image of the great I AM! We are joint heirs Christ.

There was no other thoughts ideas. He loves world so much.. He left heaven became His own creation to take its punishment's. It pleased GOD what happen to Christ. "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand."

 

[NightTwister]

Haven;t read all of your posts on this topic so have you shown in any of your post that you have a clear understanding of what ROMANS 9 is saying ????????????????????????----

I would be interested to read your interpretation of what you PERCEIVE that ROMANS 9 is saying to you -----as where you are in your Faith walk with Christ -------as the Holy spirit will only reveal what knowledge you can handle ----

------so what is your take on this Chapter 9 in Romans ??????

I will wait for your reply ------all you keep saying that I have read is ---Everything you need is in Romans 9.

So what is it that you need people to know in this Chapter of Romans 9 ----what are you trying to get across ----

Dude... question marks.
I've never known a time when I wasn't a Christian. I've spent years studying Church History, Apologetics, and Theology.
Romans chapter 9 is God telling us through Paul that while all were all going to perish due to sin, He saved some through His Grace.

 

[NightTwister]

So what he is trying to get across is that you should ignore Romans 10 and 11, and also the earlier chapters. That will certainly clarify Romans 9 -- a one horse race.

You shouldn't bear false witness against your neighbor. Especially not your brother in Christ. Oh wait, you consider all Calvanists to be heretics. Never mind. Still a neighbor though...