Church leadership, or hierarchy

[hornetguy]

I can't remember the last time I had a conversation with a pastor or church leader that lasted more than about two minutes. At any rate, the government is more than willing to step in and fill the gap of discipleship.

What kinds of discussions were you trying to have? Scripturally, if we have serious spiritual or health issues, we are to call upon the elders of the church.... they should come pray with you, even anoint you with oil...

If you simply want to discuss scriptural issues, or personal issues, it doesn't have to be the "pastor".... any mature, discreet member can, and should, be willing to talk with you. There are usually quite a few more mature believers that are fully qualified to be an elder/overseer, but just don't have the "title" . That doesn't mean they cannot help you.

If the leadership of the church is avoiding interaction with the members.... then the church has chosen the wrong "leaders"....

 

[Edify]

But I don't wanna be the leader!

I'm horrible in a group of people. That's why I write for a living. I can hide behind my desk and edit my thoughts. I can't do that when I speak. I typically say stupid things without realizing it until it's too late.

Now, in light of all those excuses, I could just suck it up and do it. Again, I would have to get to know people in the church, which ain't easy.

I have discovered that sometimes the 'qualification' to minister to others is simply to see the need..
When I was about 18, I was praying about some problems in my youth group, saying somebody needs to tell them about their sins.
I heard a voice saying "Why don't you do it?" & immediately saw a vision of myself standing behind an old pulpit in a brown leisure suit & gold rimmed glasses ministering the Word.
You may be in the beginning of a call to a new direction in ministry.

 

[SteveEpperson]

if we have serious spiritual or health issues, we are to call upon the elders of the church.... they should come pray with you, even anoint you with oil...

Good luck doing that in my home town. Instead, fill out an online contact form, and "someone" will pray for you. You may as well join an online church.

When I was going through a serious life challenge six years ago, I was struggling with anger to the point of wanting to cause serious harm to someone. It was a real battle, and Satan was winning for a while.

I don't know who I was angrier at: the people who were intentionally trying to harm me, or God, who was not taking away my anger!

It was tough going it alone, but I survived that horrendous spiritual battle.

It sure was draining, though. I could have used some help fighting, but I had been completely abandoned by my small group. I think the reason for that was I didn't fit their demographic mold. I never really fit in with them. The four pastors and 20 elders all offered prayers but not much else. I was on my own.

Thanks for reading this. It's nice to know someone will take the time to "listen." I would never get that at my current church. Everyone is just too busy with "ministries."

There are usually quite a few more mature believers that are fully qualified to be an elder/overseer, but just don't have the "title" . That doesn't mean they cannot help you.

Again, getting into the right small group is probably the key. But it seems a bit odd to break down into specific demographics. At a family gathering, are we going to have a table for the girls, one for the boys, one for the rich, one for the poor, and one for the "older people?" I hope not!

If the leadership of the church is avoiding interaction with the members.... then the church has chosen the wrong "leaders"....

I'm not sure I'm ready to put the blame on individual pastors. As I said in an earlier response, I think it's our demand for professional pastors and elders. In our credential-crazed society, you'd better have that sheepskin to go along with your perfect sermons, unblemished family life, and willingness to pave the parking lot every three years.

 

[SteveEpperson]

I have discovered that sometimes the 'qualification' to minister to others is simply to see the need..

I get it, but I prefer not to do it alone. If I could get three measly hours to have someone in the church show me how they witness to a family member or stranger, I would be good to go. But unfortunately, everyone is too busy with "ministries" to care about it.

When I was about 18, I was praying about some problems in my youth group, saying somebody needs to tell them about their sins.
I heard a voice saying "Why don't you do it?" & immediately saw a vision of myself standing behind an old pulpit in a brown leisure suit & gold rimmed glasses ministering the Word.

No offense, but there are already too many men standing behind a pulpit, in my opinion. My ministry vision would be to:

1. Tell someone about the Gospel ( I do that now, although not well)

2. Follow up with the new believer

3. Come alongside that person

4. Mentor and teach them to do the same

I think what I envision for the church is this:

1. The pastor teaches his associate pastors how to make disciples

2. The associate pastors teach the elders how to make disciples

3. The elders teach the rest of the congregation how to make disciples

4. The congregation goes and makes disciples of all nations

The problem is that, at the top of the hierarchal pyramid, the leaders are no longer teachable. They have advanced seminary degrees, many hours of bible study, and years of "ministry" experience. So in their minds, they don't need to be taught how to "go make disciples." They can do it in their sleep.

Unfortunately, we all know the outcomes of that. So, when the elders and the rest of the congregation see the lack of interest on the part of church leadership to disciple others, they ask, "Why should I bother with it?"

So, now we're back to square one, slogging through not only our own spiritual battles alone but trying to disciple others with no clear direction.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

personally speaking, you can have a gathering of 10, 20, 50, 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000, it doesn't matter, GOD, is only picking ONE to be His MOUTHPIECE over the entire whole.

in other words, if God says, you lead this people.
even if the people vote against or disagree [which they will suffer for not obeying God]
but, only ONE is to be Shepherd.

then the Shepherd appoints who is Deacon, Elder, trustee, the board.

God is only Working through ONE as LEADER, so no need for this other baloney to be involved.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Churches split when they have too many people allowed to have opinions.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Churches split when they have too many people allowed to have opinions.

I would say when they have too many conflicting doctrines and/or practices, and stop looking to the Lord for the resolution. And if opinions cannot be supported by Scriptures, they should simply be disregarded..

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I would say when they have too many conflicting doctrines and/or practices, and stop looking to the Lord for the resolution. And if opinions cannot be supported by Scriptures, they should simply be disregarded..

AMEN!

 

[SteveEpperson]

so no need for this other baloney to be involved

Like making disciples of all nations? Or teaching others to evangelize?

 

[DJT_47]

personally speaking, you can have a gathering of 10, 20, 50, 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000, it doesn't matter, GOD, is only picking ONE to be His MOUTHPIECE over the entire whole.

in other words, if God says, you lead this people.
even if the people vote against or disagree [which they will suffer for not obeying God]
but, only ONE is to be Shepherd.

then the Shepherd appoints who is Deacon, Elder, trustee, the board.

God is only Working through ONE as LEADER, so no need for this other baloney to be involved.

??

The shepherd IS the elder scripturally. What is this so-called "LEADER" called? What is his scriptural title? And who appoints him? The scripture says elders should be appointed, not elder. And how does God say "you should lead this people"? What you're describing is not biblical.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

??

The shepherd IS the elder scripturally. What is this so-called "LEADER" called? What is his scriptural title? And who appoints him? The scripture says elders should be appointed, not elder. And how does God say "you should lead this people"? What you're describing is not biblical.

you want to whine so bad, you took a lone word, after I described the Role of Shepherd, and went all ludicrous about nothing. Take your Baptist man made Calvin traditions and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Like making disciples of all nations? Or teaching others to evangelize?

The thread is how we come to have leadership roles, not the function of them.

But that is correct what you have listed.

 

[hornetguy]

personally speaking, you can have a gathering of 10, 20, 50, 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000, it doesn't matter, GOD, is only picking ONE to be His MOUTHPIECE over the entire whole.

in other words, if God says, you lead this people.
even if the people vote against or disagree [which they will suffer for not obeying God]
but, only ONE is to be Shepherd.

then the Shepherd appoints who is Deacon, Elder, trustee, the board.

God is only Working through ONE as LEADER, so no need for this other baloney to be involved.

Can you provide any scriptural backing for this leadership model? I haven't seen anything like that in any of the established first century churches...
That is what this thread is about.... what is "church leadership" like today.... and is it following the scriptural model.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Can you provide any scriptural backing for this leadership model? I haven't seen anything like that in any of the established first century churches...
That is what this thread is about.... what is "church leadership" like today.... and is it following the scriptural model.

it's a summation of understanding how the Heroes of the Bible were called. How the Disciples were called. How we see Paul teach.

And in basic terminology, I am merely saying, no matter the size of the group of people, God always sends One to lead them.

A Preacher, is the Elected Anointed mouthpiece, for either a specific group, or as a whole of people. The Evangelist, is the Elected Anointed mouthpiece, for multiple groups of people. But when a Church Meeting begins, and the Preaching starts, there is Only ONE Speaking. To me, the One Speaking, in the case of a single Congregation, is the Chosen Leader by God. And that Person is to do like when Moses picked Judges. But the Preacher, now Pastor, is picking the Deacons, and other specific role Members.

 

[SteveEpperson]

And in basic terminology, I am merely saying, no matter the size of the group of people, God always sends One to lead them.

A Preacher, is the Elected Anointed mouthpiece, for either a specific group, or as a whole of people. The Evangelist, is the Elected Anointed mouthpiece for multiple groups of people. But when a Church Meeting begins, and the Preaching starts, there is Only ONE Speaking. To me, the One Speaking, in the case of a single Congregation, is the Chosen Leader by God. And that Person is to do like when Moses picked Judges. But the Preacher, now Pastor, is picking the Deacons, and other specific role Members.

So, from what I'm reading here, Jesus had it all wrong. He should have just stuck to being the "anointed mouthpiece." He should have spent more time writing the Sermon on the Mount and left all this to someone else:

• Performing miracles
• Raising the dead
• Driving out demons
• Healing the sick
• Teaching in a small group (12 to be exact)
• Spreading the good news
• Comforting old friends

Yep, when I see the Lord face-to-face one day, I will be sure to let Him know that this just ain't the way we do church in the modern world.

 

[hornetguy]

And in basic terminology, I am merely saying, no matter the size of the group of people, God always sends One to lead them.

That is not correct, scripturally.

 

[Nehemiah6]

And in basic terminology, I am merely saying, no matter the size of the group of people, God always sends One to lead them.

All NT churches had a PLURALITY of elders, so one could not take the pre-eminence. This principle was initiated at the time of Moses and his elders. All this changed very quickly with people like Diotrephes. The problem with most churches today is the total abandonment of NT principles (which have a divine origin). Why do you think we see 24 elders around the throne of God? Even after people see these principles embedded in Scripture, they think they are wiser than God.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

So, from what I'm reading here, Jesus had it all wrong. He should have just stuck to being the "anointed mouthpiece." He should have spent more time writing the Sermon on the Mount and left all this to someone else:

• Performing miracles
• Raising the dead
• Driving out demons
• Healing the sick
• Teaching in a small group (12 to be exact)
• Spreading the good news
• Comforting old friends

Yep, when I see the Lord face-to-face one day, I will be sure to let Him know that this just ain't the way we do church in the modern world.

how did you get this from what I wrote?
your imagination is a blind spot for you.
I guess from now on, I will present my thoughts in the manner of little children,so you can fully grasp it.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

That is not correct, scripturally.

oh, that's right, when Isaiah was around, so was 30 other Prophets of the Most High God, not!
From Noah to Abraham, to Isaac, to Jacob, to Joseph, to Moses, to Joshua, and into the Prophets all the way to Jesus, and then when the 12 Disciples finally ventured on their own, Always One was Leader.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

All NT churches had a PLURALITY of elders, so one could not take the pre-eminence. This principle was initiated at the time of Moses and his elders. All this changed very quickly with people like Diotrephes. The problem with most churches today is the total abandonment of NT principles (which have a divine origin). Why do you think we see 24 elders around the throne of God? Even after people see these principles embedded in Scripture, they think they are wiser than God.

it's not about preminence.
Before Paul arrived, Peter, was more the vocal mouthpiece compared to the others.
it is what it is and has nothing to do with accolades and social standing.
Less confusion and God is not the Author of confusion.