Church leadership, or hierarchy

[JohnDB]

while those are two of the qualities, there are several more that need to be evident in their lives...

I only picked two of the many.

But it's amazing how a group of godly friends can change your life.

 

[hornetguy]

The Church I’ve been called to has a plurality of 8 elders which includes the two full time on staff pastors who do the sermons. Every elder is capable of filling in for the Pastors though that hasn’t happened since Covid. All Elders are considered Shepherds capable of handling spiritual needs of the church body. we also have a Deacon board to handle the maintenance and upkeep of the building and grounds etc.

That sounds scriptural to me...

 

[SteveEpperson]

I don't need keys....there are no locks on the doors.

Seriously? Your church doesn't lock up at night? Isn't that dangerous?

And the main reason I'm here today is that we just started getting involved in the church we have been attending. It took us a while to find it.

You were at the church today? And you got in by yourself? Sorry, I'm not following you.

And I just had one of the pastoral staff over for dinner on Thursday. I want to start men's ministries outside the church...affiliated but separate at the same time. In coffee shops and bakeries and at people's homes.

Sign me up!

I'm going to a new church, also, but it's hard to get someone to talk to you for more than 30 seconds at a time. I don't even know if there's a men's prayer b-fast on Saturdays. The website is really awful, and they rely on it way too much.

But first I have to get to know people (we just moved to the area) so we were wanting to open invite people over to dinner to get them all to know each other and us. More relaxed setting....more capable of having good conversations. (But on a schedule they sign up for)

I invited the young lady who cut's my hair to attend this Sunday. She says she will bring her whole family. At least I will know one person.

The pastor was absolutely delighted to have someone want to do stuff like that. Nobody has offered or been willing to do anything. It's likely a reason why it's not happening at your church.

I've gotten to talk to the pastor for about 1.5 minutes. That seems to be the allotted time for us who are unconnected to the upper circles.

My plan is to bring new people into the church (like my hair stylist) so I can mentor and minister to them. There's no hope for connection otherwise. Is this bad?

 

[SteveEpperson]

And shepherding? You mean discipling...

Yes, discipling is something I have NEVER witnessed in any church I've attended. I don't think once-a-week group bible study counts, do you?

Disciplining usually means one-on-one, and I can't imagine any pastor or elder giving up that kind of time, can you?

I would think it would have to be covert and away from the church. But where would you find someone who would want to be mentored? Would we have to start another site like Christian Chat, but for Christian mentoring?

I would think it would have to be more personal than that, don't you?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Disciplining usually means one-on-one, and I can't imagine any pastor or elder giving up that kind of time, can you?

Correct. And shows once again the necessity of a plurality of elders, who are actually committed to discipling. Rare if not totally absent. At the same time they could "multiply" themselves by teaching other mature men what is required and then implementing a practical way to accomplish this. Chances are things will continue as they have been.

 

[Mem]

Yes, and I don't think that includes requiring the King's wife to fill out an online form, scan a QR code, or present a background check to enter the family. Do you?

I don't know about all that. Those look too much like hoops to me.

Matthew 10:41 is the verse on my Dail-a-Verse Rolodex Calendar.
Whoever receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man’s reward.

So, I'm strictly adhering to that.

 

[presidente]

This is what it means: As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. (Acts 13:2,3)

When the elders of a church sincerely fast and pray and ask God the Holy Spirit to show them exactly who should be appointed as an elder or deacon, God will speak to their hearts and tell them exactly who it is. There is no need for the apostles to be present.

I am not saying that the Spirit can't or want do it. The Spirit spoke in that case, and it was in regard to apostles being sent out (Acts 14:4; 14) rather than local elders and deacons.

Notice they also fasted. The Spirit also spoke. It is possible the Spirit spoke through the gift of prophecy,, rather than by a booming audible voice they all heard or some other means.

Compare to this.
I Timothy 4:14
Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.
(NKJV)

Timothy is also not called a pastor or elder in scripture. I Thessalonians 1:1 and 2:6 indicate that Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy were apostles. On one occasion, Paul told Timothy to do the work of an evangelist (II Timothy 4:5.)

 

[presidente]

Disciplining usually means one-on-one, and I can't imagine any pastor or elder giving up that kind of time, can you?

It's a good thing for a believer to meet one-on-one with new believers, but when Jesus said to make disiciples of all nations, it seems very unlikely to me that He was speaking exclusively of meeting one-on-one and going over the lesson in a 'discipleship' booklet. Teaching the word in group settings, IMO, would seem to qualify as well. But Jesus did spend a lot of time with His disciples teaching them. There were times when there were three of them. He had conversations with them.

 

[presidente]

And vice versa. (The staff was literally cussing and shouting at each other in the halls during one pastor's tenure until they got an executive pastor to fix things)

Cussing each other? There should be some kind of criteria for the kind of people to be church staff, if a church is going to hire them. It sounds like the pastor needed to focus on some things other than fixing the administrative system.

 

[presidente]

Wow, I was beginning to think I was the only one who embraced this viewpoint. Looks like I've found another.



Do you think this "burden" you mention is the reason why there's no hope of connecting with a pastor in 2023 for more them 2.5 minutes at a time? I honestly think it would be easier to connect with the CEO of Twitter than with your local pastor.

I know what you're going to say. The churches I'm going to are too big. But I have seen this phenomenon in churches with 40 in their congregation.



I think I'm going to answer my previous question by stating this is the main problem. I live in a university town where it's all about what kind of degree you have.

When a pastor comes out of seminary with a master's or Ph.D., they now have to fight against their sinful nature to lord it over the rest of us. That's a tall order to ask a young man, especially when they have to fight against the rest of their flesh at the same time.

The amount of pride, hubris, and arrogance I've witnessed over the years from pastors is jaw-dropping. Maybe it's not so surprising when it happens in a university town, but even in a small country church, you get at least a taste of it.

This, unfortunately, is what establishes the all-too-familiar elite hierarchy within the local church. There's a top-down mentality that starts with the pastor, infects the elders, and spreads like cancer into the body.

Small groups are often established to combat this, so I think it's a good start.

George Patterson was a missionary to Honduras. He taught at a Bible College. He noticed that some of the students would get hired to work for banana plantations. His boss made him chair of something or other...the chair was a saddle to ride on a donkey to go up into the mountains and minister where some of the people lived.

He started working mature men who were the type of men who could fit the Biblical qualifications for elders, though some of them were illiterate, instead of the young immature men he'd been working with.

Patterson wrote at one lesson on the 'Perspectives' course for world missions. In one of his newsletters he wrote something along the lines that, in spite of all the research to the contrary, pastors want to send the best and brightest of the young off to Bible college. When they return with their education, they often think because of their education they think they know better than those in the church who actually meet the Biblical qualification for elders.

He had co-authored a guide that was used by some of the house church planting missionaries, or rather those working with locals to do so, in Indonesia when I was there.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Notice they also fasted. The Spirit also spoke. It is possible the Spirit spoke through the gift of prophecy,, rather than by a booming audible voice they all heard or some other means.

You are simply nit=picking and ignoring the underlying principles. God speaks in a "still small voice". What applies to apostles applies equally to elders. It is God who directs.

 

[presidente]

So in effect elders are pastors, and every church was meant to have a plurality of elders (called a presbytery in the NT). Is this what we see in churches today? No. The burden falls on one man ("the pastor"), who rarely acts as a shepherd, and spends most of his time preparing sermons or doing administrative work. That's how far things have departed from the NT pattern. And if you don't have an M.Div. you can act as a janitor. Why did churches start demanding M. Div's instead of asking that their elders meet the NT qualifications of elders (all clearly spelled out by Paul)? And why did evangelical churches start ordaining women as pastors in clear violation of Scripture?

I believe it is good if churches with 100 have more than 1 elder, but I do notice that Paul said to Titus to appoint elders in every ___city___ and there were elders in the church in Jerusalem, and elders in the church in Ephesus.

The Bible uses 'church' in the singular when referring to a church in one city. We see this with Jerusalem, Ephesus, the seven churches in Revelation. In a region, we see the plural, for example, churches of Achaia. There is also 'churches of the Gentiles'.

It may be they appointed a plurality of elders on a city level. It's possible one group that met in a house had one of the elders working with them, but that the elders cooperated. But I don't see any evidence to support that. The church in Jerusalem was very big, though, but the church in Corinth would 'all come together into one place' and Gaius was Paul's host and of the whole church.

In addition to the problem of education substituting for Biblical qualifications, I see that some traditions substitute the claim of having a 'call' with actually fulfilling Biblical qualifications.

Part of the problem comes from the fact that much of Protestantism, under the influence of the Reformed movement in Geneva, changed the name from priest/elder to 'pastor' obscuring the relationship between the qualifications and the role. 'Priest' had been used to translate 'kohen' which isn't the same concept as presbyter.

 

[presidente]

Don't get me wrong, I love this site. But why do you suppose we're all sitting here at our electronic devices typing away? Shouldn't we be discussing spiritual things with people in our local churches instead of with strangers online?

It's Saturday, and I'm pretty sure that if I were to visit my local church building right now, it would look like Fort Knox-- closed tighter than a drum. If an elder were allowed to open the building, there would be lots of members willing to bring snacks and do the exact same thing we're doing now: talking about spiritual things.

Unfortunately, if it's not part of a larger ministry program or sanctioned directly by the pastor, such impromptu nonsense is crushed like a bug. There's just no room for activity outside the man-made hierarchical structure.

I don't see a problem with edifying believers around the world, but it is good that to do that with those who meet with locally as well.

Consider that early churches met primarily in homes and there is no real evidence of a church building in scripture. You could invite people over to your house or somewhere else to have these discussions.

 

[presidente]

You are simply nit=picking and ignoring the underlying principles. God speaks in a "still small voice". What applies to apostles applies equally to elders. It is God who directs.

The still small voice passage is about Elijah, who experienced, wind, but God was not in the wind, earthquake, fire, but God was not in the wind, earthquake, and fire, but then a still small voice.

It seems pretty apparent that Elijah actually heard a voice, as the passage says. This passage doesn't mention God speaking through inaudible impressions through the heart.

I wouldn't insist that every time God spoke in scripture it was audible to the hearer either. Philip heard the voice of the Spirit. I am open to God speaking to the heart, rather than exclusively audibly, and someone hearing and sharing the message.

In Acts 13, prophets and teachers gathered, fast, prayed, and the Spirit spoke.

I don't have a problem with the Spirit speaking about who the elders are. If you want to believe God for that, that's great. But I wouldn't want to make it a requirement because it isn't addressed in passage that specifically teach on this topic such as I Timothy 3 and Titus 1.

We also have three examples, post ascension, about how men were directed and released into an apostolic role. There is Matthias being put forward and the casting of lots. There are all Paul's set of experiences, and then he and Barnabas being sent forth by the Spirit after the Spirit spoke and being called 'apostles' after that. For Silas and Timothy, Paul decided to take each man with him on ministry journeys. In the case of Timothy, we know that he received some gift related to his ministry with through prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elders, and a gift that was in him through the laying on of Paul's hands.

Regarding the Spirit speaking to the church whether audible or inaudible, all this stuff is kind of 'charismatic', but I am cool with that.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The still small voice passage is about Elijah,

More nit-picking.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I believe it is good if churches with 100 have more than 1 elder, but I do notice that Paul said to Titus to appoint elders in every ___city___ and there were elders in the church in Jerusalem, and elders in the church in Ephesus.

Read Titus carefully again and discover your error. And stop with the nit-picking. There are universal spiritual principles in the Bible.

 

[presidente]

More nit-picking.

Your being obtuse and disagreeable for no good reason. If I point out details, that isn't wrong.

 

[SteveEpperson]

He had conversations with them.

I can't remember the last time I had a conversation with a pastor or church leader that lasted more than about two minutes. At any rate, the government is more than willing to step in and fill the gap of discipleship.

For us who are stubborn and not willing to surrender to satan's authority, there are online sermons, sites like this where people can freely talk about spiritual things, and quiet times with the Lord.

The only reason I attend church every Sunday is to gather with others for worship. Pray for me that I will find a way to infiltrate the thick exterior of the church hierarchy so I can stop trying to serve in solitude.

This all may sound a bit melodramatic, but I don't think that I'm the only one.

 

[SteveEpperson]

they often think because of their education they think they know better than those in the church who actually meet the Biblical qualification for elders.

I think your reply is agreeing with me, from what I'm reading.

It's not all about narcissism, I don't think. I believe what's happened to our churches is the same as what happened to hospitals at the turn of the 20th century.

WWI brought amazing innovations in science and medicine, and people were taking notice. The average patient was demanding these new procedures, and hospitals were having to seek professional nurses and other staff.

It took a while, but by the late 1960s, nurses went from being nuns in dark gowns to professionals with advanced degrees. Unfortunately, that drove up costs, and the benevolent nature of hospitals turned into corporate greed.

I'm not saying that churches are greedy corporations, but they do have higher costs now. That's because voting members are demanding elevated qualifications for pastors. Not only do they have to deliver a perfect sermon every Sunday, but they better have their master's or Ph.D. as well. Not only that, but they are expected to oversee a myriad of questionable, costly programs, keep the parking lot perfect, and balance the budget, all while maintaining a perfect family.

It's no wonder they hide from people. I would, too, under those circumstances.

You mentioned house churches. I used to think that was the answer, but I have since reconsidered. After all, we would probably end up with 1,000 more denominations than we already have.

Let's stay with the small groups supervised by the local church and pray God continues to bless that. Not sure what else to do.

 

[SteveEpperson]

I don't see a problem with edifying believers around the world, but it is good that to do that with those who meet with locally as well.

Consider that early churches met primarily in homes and there is no real evidence of a church building in scripture. You could invite people over to your house or somewhere else to have these discussions.

But I don't wanna be the leader!

I'm horrible in a group of people. That's why I write for a living. I can hide behind my desk and edit my thoughts. I can't do that when I speak. I typically say stupid things without realizing it until it's too late.

Now, in light of all those excuses, I could just suck it up and do it. Again, I would have to get to know people in the church, which ain't easy.