Pre-Destination, God's Foreknowledge and Choice

[Cameron143]

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. (Is 46: 9-11)

kinda like that?

Yes, like that. As well as Daniel 4:35.

 

[DJT_47]

Predestination isn't determined by the foreknowledge of God. It is determined by the sovereignty of God. God has made choices which He then decrees. And because He has purposed a thing, it will come to pass. This also speaks to the omnipotence of God. Not only does He make sovereign choices, He possesses the power to bring them to pass.
It is not the omniscience of God that should be considered when broaching the subject of predestination, but the sovereignty and omnipotence of God.

You obviously didn't read any of the cited scriptures which say exactly that. Read Romans 8 cited above.

 

[Cameron143]

You obviously didn't read any of the cited scriptures which say exactly that. Read Romans 8 cited above.

If you feel slighted or offended in any way, my sincerest apologies. Blessings.

 

[DJT_47]

If you feel slighted or offended in any way, my sincerest apologies. Blessings.

Has nothing whatsoever to do with me, my feelings, or opinions. It's simply a matter of what the scriptures say and where that leads you. My point in my response to you was predicated correspondingly as the Romans 8 passage says exactly opposite of what your statement said.

Romans 8:29

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[Cameron143]

Has nothing whatsoever to do with me, my feelings, or opinions. It's simply a matter of what the scriptures say and where that leads you. My point in my response to you was predicated correspondingly as the Romans 8 passage says exactly opposite of what your statement said.

Romans 8:29

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Actually, it says whom He foreknew, and not what He foreknew, which aligns with Ephesians 1:4.
And as I shared with another poster, it is according to foreknowledge. But the ability to bring to pass something is predicated not simply on knowing what will happen, but by choosing what is to happen and having the power to make sure it comes to pass.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Actually, it says whom He foreknew, and not what He foreknew, which aligns with Ephesians 1:4.

That is splitting hairs. Whom He foreknew is related to that context. But then the Calvinists come along and alter the meaning to those so-called "elect" of theirs, and foreknowledge becomes "love". But what He foreknew is much broader and covers God's omniscience. Also it is a given that God knows, chooses, has the power, etc. After all it is divine foreknowledge.

 

[Cameron143]

That is splitting hairs. Whom He foreknew is related to that context. But then the Calvinists come along and alter the meaning to those so-called "elect" of theirs, and foreknowledge becomes "love". But what He foreknew is much broader and covers God's omniscience. Also it is a given that God knows, chooses, has the power, etc. After all it is divine foreknowledge.

My only point was foreknowledge isn't as simple as what God knows and that history is not just what God knows will happen but what He has decreed and brought to pass as well.

 

[MichaelZ]

I believe that we have complete free will. God created all and it is simply our duty to try our best to be a good person throughout life and God will handle the rest after we pass. At least, that’s what we teach @ https://BibleHeaven.org 🙏❤️🙏

When it boils down to it, most pastors in supposedly Calvinist churches believe this as well. When you ask them, "Does God predestine some folks to hell?" they will always tell you "No!". Yeah, a few Calvinists in the congregation might say "Yes" but never the pastor. And I assume that you mean by "good life" we should, as believers, live a life righteous before God, putting off the old self (as opposed to Good works for salvation). Again, what nearly every pastor, even in a Calvinist church will (and should) preach.

 

[Edify]

Isn't it ironic that many in CC dislike churches that "lord it over" their members & decide not to go, only to come on here & do the same thing to other members?
He that judges does the same things.
Jesus said those who desire to be greatest among you must become servant of all.
The proper approach then should be a servant approaching a master, not the other way around.
When masters approach servants, it's always a "lord it over" situation.

 

[Iconoclast]

More foolish talk. If God had already elected a multitude to be saved, there would have been no need of the Gospel.

What you and others fail to understand is not only has God elected a multitude of sinners to save, but He has ordained the preaching of the gospel as the primary means to accomplish that mission.

 

[Inquisitor]

Has nothing whatsoever to do with me, my feelings, or opinions. It's simply a matter of what the scriptures say and where that leads you. My point in my response to you was predicated correspondingly as the Romans 8 passage says exactly opposite of what your statement said.

Romans 8:29

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Everyone throws the context in the garbage bin, when they read the letter to the Romans.

The Jews were the folk whom God had formerly known, not the Gentiles.

Paul's narration from Romans chapter two, right through, to the end of chapter eleven. Is entirely concerned with the Jews.
Why the Jews failed, why they were grafted out. Always read Romans in it's embedded context.

 

[DJT_47]

Everyone throws the context in the garbage bin, when they read the letter to the Romans.

The Jews were the folk whom God had formerly known, not the Gentiles.

Paul's narration from Romans chapter two, right through, to the end of chapter eleven. Is entirely concerned with the Jews.
Why the Jews failed, why they were grafted out. Always read Romans in it's embedded context.

That holds true for all the scriptures: who were they written to, when, and why, and once that's understood, what can be gleaned from them and what applies and how it applies to us today.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Everyone throws the context in the garbage bin, when they read the letter to the Romans.

The Jews were the folk whom God had formerly known, not the Gentiles.

Paul's narration from Romans chapter two, right through, to the end of chapter eleven. Is entirely concerned with the Jews.
Why the Jews failed, why they were grafted out. Always read Romans in it's embedded context.

if the Jews were truly grafted out, like Replacement Theology teaches, why did Paul, a JEW, from Tribe of Benjamin, Teacher of the LAW, be able to come to Christ, if he, a JEW, was grafted out?

in fact, Paul himself, even says what I just wrote.

11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.


16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

 

[Inquisitor]

if the Jews were truly grafted out, like Replacement Theology teaches, why did Paul, a JEW, from Tribe of Benjamin, Teacher of the LAW, be able to come to Christ, if he, a JEW, was grafted out?

in fact, Paul himself, even says what I just wrote.

11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.


16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The entire nation was grafted out.

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though they could by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone!

There was a small number of Jews who put their trust in Jesus.

His people (the Jews) were no longer His chosen, elect people.

What do you think Paul has been talking about all the way through Romans?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

The entire nation was grafted out.

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though they could by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone!

There was a small number of Jews who put their trust in Jesus.

His people (the Jews) were no longer His chosen, elect people.

What do you think Paul has been talking about all the way through Romans?

that's your view, but Paul still said:
11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.


16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

there's NO REJECTION happening to any Jew coming to Christ, so, that means, ALL Jews can come to Christ without Rejection.
Therefore, they have not truly been grafted out if they are received when they come to Jesus.

 

[Inquisitor]

that's your view, but Paul still said:
11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.


16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

there's NO REJECTION happening to any Jew coming to Christ, so, that means, ALL Jews can come to Christ without Rejection.
Therefore, they have not truly been grafted out if they are received when they come to Jesus.

Huh?

Paul said Israel was grafted out, I did not say that.

Of course, a Jew can become a Christian but there would be few of those.

 

[PennEd]

My only point was foreknowledge isn't as simple as what God knows and that history is not just what God knows will happen but what He has decreed and brought to pass as well.

Amazing how this factual statement irks, and gets under the skin of so many.

Finding out why, reveals so much I think.

 

[Cameron143]

Amazing how this factual statement irks, and gets under the skin of so many.

Finding out why, reveals so much I think.

God is so incredibly magnificent that words fail to describe Him. We sing a song sometimes called " O For A Thousand Tongues ". And yet, even were we all to have a 1,000 tongues to sing our great Redeemer's praise, we would fall short of the praise He is due.

I believe it was R. C. Sproul who said there was not one maverick molecule in the universe. A simple perusal of the Bible demonstrates this and that history is under divine control and following a divine timetable and fulfilling divine purposes. And to view history as a series of random events is to miss the point of creation in the first place.

I am always intrigued, though, as you seem to be, how individuals come to believe as they do.

 

[Magenta]

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. (Is 46: 9-11)

kinda like that?

Isaiah 46:10

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Huh?

Paul said Israel was grafted out, I did not say that.

Of course, a Jew can become a Christian but there would be few of those.

no, Paul said, they were broken off due to disbelief, nothing that God did to them.