Pre-Destination, God's Foreknowledge and Choice

[montana123]

The Bible says the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world although they were future events.

Which God calls things that have not happened yet as though they already happened for if it is a plan to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.

In the beginning was the plan of God to come in the flesh, and that plan was with God before He started creating anything, and that plan was God manifest in flesh.
All things were made with the plan of God to come in the future in flesh, and without that plan God would of not made anything that He made for Jesus is the reason creation is successful to give salvation and to judge the angels and people.

Jesus is the beginning of creation although He was not born until the future because God calls things that have not happened yet as though they already happened and the Word of God is a plan to come in flesh in the future but it was the same as if the Word was in the beginning.

The saints being predestined to salvation means God already had the plan to give mankind salvation from the foundation of the world but this salvation is to whoever wants this salvation.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

These scriptures plainly state that God wants all people to be saved.

If God chooses who will be saved and not saved without their choice then His kingdom is not true love and He is not evil to condemn a person that has no choice but to reject the truth.

And what criteria would God use to choose some to be saved and some not to be saved when all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and He is no respecter of persons, and what makes you to differ from another, and there is none that does good, no, not one, and if you break the least of the law you broke the whole law so all people are in the same position in the eyes of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

God is not offering limited anything. If you think you are limited, you probably are, but God is not.

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John

You can repeat this passage over and over, but the exact same number of people are going to be saved.
God has already elected a multitude that He has purposed to save.
It is limited, but definite God has a plan that is infinitely wise.
No one alters Gods plan.

 

[Iconoclast]

You are simply spinning on the roundtable of TULIP now and it is not a pretty song.

I do understand though, that you cannot change your mind at this point. Even a fish needs help to pull out the hook when it is caught.

You cannot offer a biblical response to this confessional statement.
These gifted men knew the Lord and His word much better than you,that is why you cannot respond line by line.

 

[Polar]

You cannot offer a biblical response to this confessional statement.
These gifted men knew the Lord and His word much better than you,that is why you cannot respond line by line.

blah blah blabbidy blah blah

That's all I hear from you.

Jesus is Lord. You can worship Calvin all you want. I never or hardly ever hear anything from you hyper Calvinists about Christ. It's just always Calvin the murderer and his lot. You are clueless and ensnared in your false beliefs.

 

[Polar]

You can repeat this passage over and over, but the exact same number of people are going to be saved.
God has already elected a multitude that He has purposed to save.
It is limited, but definite God has a plan that is infinitely wise.
No one alters Gods plan.

Interesting. A person quotes scripture and you dismiss it.

I will be dismissing you also as it is pointless to discuss scripture with you since you dismiss it.

 

[Polar]

No one alters Gods plan.

Ironic.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You can repeat this passage over and over, but the exact same number of people are going to be saved.
God has already elected a multitude that He has purposed to save.
It is limited, but definite God has a plan that is infinitely wise.
No one alters Gods plan.

I believe what you are saying, but I would use the word "God purposes" instead of "God's plan). I do not believe that God has a plan.

 

[MichaelZ]

Have you looked into Molinism? It seeks to reconcile the apparent tension of divine providence and human "free will."

I have not researched everything about Molinism, but I do believe in “Middle Knowledge”. God knows all of our possible choices in life and all the resulting outcomes. We have free will, but God is always in complete control.

 

[DJT_47]

Here is a short study of mine which had been previously posted on this subject.

Predestination (based upon the foreknowledge of God)

Premise: God knows the beginning and the end, so therefore he must also know all that will occur within the entire expanse of time including everything that will occur in the middle, between the beginning and the end of time.

Predestination as discussed in the bible (below passages) can therefore be easily explained when taking into consideration the foreknowledge that God possesses as also noted in scripture, which factor is germane to the proper understanding of predestination but is most often, if not always, overlooked and not considered when examining/discussing predestination.
Further, based upon God’s foreknowledge, all things must therefore then be already determined (destiny/fate); how can they not be if God knows the future? How can God know the future if it is fluid, dynamic, and changes, unless such fluidity and change is part of His foreknowledge, which it obviously must be? If things were fluid, dynamic, and/or random and subject to unexpected or unknown constant change to God, God would not know what was going to happen in the future and would not be able nor have been able to predict future events through His prophets. So, if God does know what will happen in the future, the future must already be set or determined and unchangeable (destiny/fate).
This premise further has profound implications when considering things such as prayer. This would have to then mean that God knows that you will (future) be praying for something before you pray for it. It doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t pray for it then, it simply means that the future is already known or has already been determined (due to God’s ‘foreknowledge’ of it), and your prayers, are simply fulfilling that which is already known to God and will occur as does everything else that occurs or will occur (also due to the “foreknowledge” of God). Whatever influences we think we have upon any given thing or subject through prayer or other actions, may in fact be as such, however, such influences are already known to God by His foreknowledge, and have therefore already been determined and are just the fulfillment of that which has already been determined will/should occur.
If God knows the beginning, the end, and as stated everything in between, then one can only conclude that all things have already been determined and are NOT able to be changed (destiny/fate) by prayer or anything else (once again due to the “foreknowledge” of God) and that all things that are done are so done in accordance with God’s plan and predicated upon and consistent with His “foreknowledge”. This is not to say that certain individuals were chosen first as being special or better than others and predestined accordingly, but rather means that once the plan was set into motion (the creation of all things), that the creation itself and related natural unfolding, sequential events, including the actions taken by individuals pursuant to the exercise of their own free will, would result in various things being done and events unfolding as a result thereof, but because God knows what those things will be in advance of them happening due to His “foreknowledge”, and predestination then being consistent with said “foreknowledge. Predestination then is successive to and in harmony with the “foreknowledge” of God.
Jer 1:5 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Rom 8 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1 Pet 1:2 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Eph 1 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[Cameron143]

Here is a short study of mine which had been previously posted on this subject.

Predestination (based upon the foreknowledge of God)

Premise: God knows the beginning and the end, so therefore he must also know all that will occur within the entire expanse of time including everything that will occur in the middle, between the beginning and the end of time.

Predestination as discussed in the bible (below passages) can therefore be easily explained when taking into consideration the foreknowledge that God possesses as also noted in scripture, which factor is germane to the proper understanding of predestination but is most often, if not always, overlooked and not considered when examining/discussing predestination.
Further, based upon God’s foreknowledge, all things must therefore then be already determined (destiny/fate); how can they not be if God knows the future? How can God know the future if it is fluid, dynamic, and changes, unless such fluidity and change is part of His foreknowledge, which it obviously must be? If things were fluid, dynamic, and/or random and subject to unexpected or unknown constant change to God, God would not know what was going to happen in the future and would not be able nor have been able to predict future events through His prophets. So, if God does know what will happen in the future, the future must already be set or determined and unchangeable (destiny/fate).
This premise further has profound implications when considering things such as prayer. This would have to then mean that God knows that you will (future) be praying for something before you pray for it. It doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t pray for it then, it simply means that the future is already known or has already been determined (due to God’s ‘foreknowledge’ of it), and your prayers, are simply fulfilling that which is already known to God and will occur as does everything else that occurs or will occur (also due to the “foreknowledge” of God). Whatever influences we think we have upon any given thing or subject through prayer or other actions, may in fact be as such, however, such influences are already known to God by His foreknowledge, and have therefore already been determined and are just the fulfillment of that which has already been determined will/should occur.
If God knows the beginning, the end, and as stated everything in between, then one can only conclude that all things have already been determined and are NOT able to be changed (destiny/fate) by prayer or anything else (once again due to the “foreknowledge” of God) and that all things that are done are so done in accordance with God’s plan and predicated upon and consistent with His “foreknowledge”. This is not to say that certain individuals were chosen first as being special or better than others and predestined accordingly, but rather means that once the plan was set into motion (the creation of all things), that the creation itself and related natural unfolding, sequential events, including the actions taken by individuals pursuant to the exercise of their own free will, would result in various things being done and events unfolding as a result thereof, but because God knows what those things will be in advance of them happening due to His “foreknowledge”, and predestination then being consistent with said “foreknowledge. Predestination then is successive to and in harmony with the “foreknowledge” of God.
Jer 1:5 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Rom 8 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1 Pet 1:2 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Eph 1 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Predestination isn't determined by the foreknowledge of God. It is determined by the sovereignty of God. God has made choices which He then decrees. And because He has purposed a thing, it will come to pass. This also speaks to the omnipotence of God. Not only does He make sovereign choices, He possesses the power to bring them to pass.
It is not the omniscience of God that should be considered when broaching the subject of predestination, but the sovereignty and omnipotence of God.

 

[MichaelZ]

What about when a person within the church kills himself or herself? Is that what God planned? Or perhaps it was a bad choice, not resisting the urging-on of satan? (Which is what I believe)

The explanation I heard at such a funeral was that "there are some things beyond our understanding", which is nothing more than a non-answer at best, and at worst an acknowledgement that God would predestine such a thing.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Predestination isn't determined by the foreknowledge of God.

How did you come up with this doozy? The Bible refutes this: Elect [predestined] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father... (1 Peter 1:2).

This is how man-made doctrines originate. Someone contradicts the Bible. No one bothers to correct that person. So he goes on to establish a false belief. Then someone else comes along and changes the plain meaning of "foreknowledge" (or some other critical word).

 

[Nehemiah6]

The explanation I heard at such a funeral was that "there are some things beyond our understanding", which is nothing more than a non-answer at best, and at worst an acknowledgement that God would predestine such a thing

What other answer did you expect? Only God knows what is in human hearts. And predestination has nothing to do with bad human choices.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I do not believe that God has a plan.

And yet you keep harping on God's plan to send millions to Hell.

 

[Nehemiah6]

God has already elected a multitude that He has purposed to save. It is limited, but definite God has a plan that is infinitely wise. No one alters Gods plan.

More foolish talk. If God had already elected a multitude to be saved, there would have been no need of the Gospel.

 

[Cameron143]

How did you come up with this doozy? The Bible refutes this: Elect [predestined] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father... (1 Peter 1:2).

This is how man-made doctrines originate. Someone contradicts the Bible. No one bothers to correct that person. So he goes on to establish a false belief. Then someone else comes along and changes the plain meaning of "foreknowledge" (or some other critical word).

I never made a comment on what predestination means or how it manifests. I merely stated the basis for it.
Foreknowledge is knowing future events. The Bible tells of many future events. But the only way one can sovereignly announce future events and have them come to pass is to possess the power to ensure they come to pass.
The reason you can't predict the future isn't because you can't deduce what might happen. You simply can't ensure what you predict will happen. That's not so with God.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I never made a comment on what predestination means or how it manifests.

Of course you did. This is what you said: "Predestination isn't determined by the foreknowledge of God." That plainly contradicts Scripture.

 

[notmyown]

Predestination isn't determined by the foreknowledge of God. It is determined by the sovereignty of God. God has made choices which He then decrees. And because He has purposed a thing, it will come to pass. This also speaks to the omnipotence of God. Not only does He make sovereign choices, He possesses the power to bring them to pass.
It is not the omniscience of God that should be considered when broaching the subject of predestination, but the sovereignty and omnipotence of God.

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. (Is 46: 9-11)

kinda like that?

 

[NewYorkHarry]

I believe that we have complete free will. God created all and it is simply our duty to try our best to be a good person throughout life and God will handle the rest after we pass. At least, that’s what we teach @ https://BibleHeaven.org 🙏❤️🙏

 

[Cameron143]

Of course you did. This is what you said: "Predestination isn't determined by the foreknowledge of God." That plainly contradicts Scripture.

You wanted it to contradict scripture so you decided it did. Perhaps my choice of terminology was inaccurate, but not the thought wasn't.
Daniel 4:35 clearly teaches the sovereignty of God. God does as He pleases and no one can alter that. The reason no one can is due to His omnipotence.
So while election works out according to the foreknowledge of God, it remains undergirded and possible because God is sovereign and omnipotent.
You, and a few others here, seem to take a personal pleasure in misrepresenting and abasing those you disagree with. Rather than ask for fuller explanation, you assume the worst, and often purposefully misconstrue other's meanings.
I've been on this site around a year and a half. This has been your practice in all that time, despite it being brought to your attention. The mark of a Christian isn't how much he or she knows, but how much like Christ they are becoming.