Combat , the spirit v the flesh
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What is your understanding of 2 Cor. 5:8 and 1 Thess. 4:16 since scripture does not contradict itself? Do they apply to different dispensations?
2 Cor. 5:8 says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord: "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."
Whereas, 1 Thess. 4:16 states that at the last trump the dead IN CHRIST shall rise first: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
2 Cor. 5:8 says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord: "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."
Whereas, 1 Thess. 4:16 states that at the last trump the dead IN CHRIST shall rise first: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
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consider Gods word and how important essential really it is to anything God has ever done from this point in scripture
“And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.”
Genesis 1:3 KJV
To this point in scripture
“He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.”
Revelation 22:20 KJV
Everything God does in the Bible he does by sinply declaring it, and then the power of his creative word brings it to pass from nothing but the word he spoke there was darkness over the face of the deep and God said let there be light and the result is light from his declaration
at his same principle is working within a believer who hears the word of Christ
“For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”
2 Corinthians 4:6 KJV
Hearing and believing the gospel is the “ how “ of God works within us to change our Will and actions it’s how he has always worked he speaks and the creators word creates even when he speaks it to and it works through a man like this
“And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.
And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
Exodus 10:21-22
This is what faith is Moses dodnt do anything but hear and obey what God said and the result God promised came forth by the power of his word and Moses bekieving and acting on it it’s the same throughout the New Testament
“And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still.
And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?”
Mark 4:39, 41 KJV
This is how God works in us also and why Jesus says hearing and believing his word will save us because that’s how God operates since the beginning he speaks it and invites man to believe him
salvation by faith is just the same
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
If I hear and believe this it’s like any word God speaks promising a result it will be brought to pass but what he said becomes the central and imperative point because what he said simply is and will always be
The bibles old testement Moses and all the prophets tell us the messiah would come later and speak all of Gods requirements and anyone that hears and believes him would be saved
ultimately it always returns to what it is Jesus said will save our souls we talk about the blood the cross the Holy Ghost ect but all of it comes when we begin to hear and believe a gods word declaring that’s the things
we are just like this man and we need to hear Jesus this much
“And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.”
John 11:43-44
That’s the power of his word
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24
mans ultimate lesson to learn in life is God will never lead us astray he will never lie to us he will always teach us the right things the right ways he will always tell us the truth of we reach that understanding we have true hope that will not disappoint us if man could only learn to hear Gods word and believe him death would be lost forever
“And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.”
Genesis 1:3 KJV
To this point in scripture
“He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.”
Revelation 22:20 KJV
Everything God does in the Bible he does by sinply declaring it, and then the power of his creative word brings it to pass from nothing but the word he spoke there was darkness over the face of the deep and God said let there be light and the result is light from his declaration
at his same principle is working within a believer who hears the word of Christ
“For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”
2 Corinthians 4:6 KJV
Hearing and believing the gospel is the “ how “ of God works within us to change our Will and actions it’s how he has always worked he speaks and the creators word creates even when he speaks it to and it works through a man like this
“And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.
And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
Exodus 10:21-22
This is what faith is Moses dodnt do anything but hear and obey what God said and the result God promised came forth by the power of his word and Moses bekieving and acting on it it’s the same throughout the New Testament
“And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still.
And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?”
Mark 4:39, 41 KJV
This is how God works in us also and why Jesus says hearing and believing his word will save us because that’s how God operates since the beginning he speaks it and invites man to believe him
salvation by faith is just the same
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
If I hear and believe this it’s like any word God speaks promising a result it will be brought to pass but what he said becomes the central and imperative point because what he said simply is and will always be
The bibles old testement Moses and all the prophets tell us the messiah would come later and speak all of Gods requirements and anyone that hears and believes him would be saved
ultimately it always returns to what it is Jesus said will save our souls we talk about the blood the cross the Holy Ghost ect but all of it comes when we begin to hear and believe a gods word declaring that’s the things
we are just like this man and we need to hear Jesus this much
“And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.”
John 11:43-44
That’s the power of his word
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24
mans ultimate lesson to learn in life is God will never lead us astray he will never lie to us he will always teach us the right things the right ways he will always tell us the truth of we reach that understanding we have true hope that will not disappoint us if man could only learn to hear Gods word and believe him death would be lost forever
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My belief is there is this group in Christ
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth ( accepts ) my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
John 8:51 KJV
And then this group who didn’t actually get that far into the understanding but they believe what they understand
“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 6:44 KJV
i don’t believe any true believer in Jesus is going to be eternally lost but I do believe some will repent and obey him on earth at some point and overcome the world
others won’t and so they have a different path but will also be saved at the resurrection being believers in Jesus and the gospel even though they didn’t grasp it all or obey it all or even come to realize they needed to repent ect
to simplify I believe some will be delivered immediately when they leave thier body others will be delivered at the last judgement
This just my own belief brother I believe the Bible tells us that if we don’t repent we’re going to have to pay what’s due but Jesus is going to save everyone that believes in him
I Don’t believe thisnis true of everyone
“If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”
1 Corinthians 3:15 KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth ( accepts ) my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
John 8:51 KJV
And then this group who didn’t actually get that far into the understanding but they believe what they understand
“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 6:44 KJV
i don’t believe any true believer in Jesus is going to be eternally lost but I do believe some will repent and obey him on earth at some point and overcome the world
others won’t and so they have a different path but will also be saved at the resurrection being believers in Jesus and the gospel even though they didn’t grasp it all or obey it all or even come to realize they needed to repent ect
to simplify I believe some will be delivered immediately when they leave thier body others will be delivered at the last judgement
This just my own belief brother I believe the Bible tells us that if we don’t repent we’re going to have to pay what’s due but Jesus is going to save everyone that believes in him
I Don’t believe thisnis true of everyone
“If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”
1 Corinthians 3:15 KJV
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I see the two covenants in the tee of life that promised life and tree of good and evil which promised death
i see Eden as a microcosm of the world and Adam a sort of microcosm of man
you have adams experience he received a commandment instructing him what not to do or he would die, but before this God told him to freely eat of any tree in Eden this included the tree of life so adam has an informed decision to make after receiving the commandment not before but after he is informed by God
“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 2:16-17
look at thier stete here before sin
“And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
Genesis 2:25
Now look at how every th ing changes between God and man remember God had placed Adam in Eden by his Will then informed Adam now look what happens
“And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
Genesis 3:6, 8-11, 23-24 KJV
this is the break on our relationship with God the moment man is rejected based on thier sin this moment in history is why man needs to be saved and redeemed and have thoer relationship with God reconciled because they ate from the tree of corrupted knowledge
Knowledge is the key to the fall knowledge of good v evil and the conflict it contains and produces within mankind man isnt made to have good and evil conflicting in our minds thisnisnwhy the knowledge was forbidden we were already made pure and right but then became corrupt by our own free Will and a deception by the devil
the old covenant reflects adams attitude after they sinned he became afraid to hear Gods word or be in Gods presence
See this part this isn’t Gods design it is a work of the devil
and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid,
Think of that Adam the beloved creation and son of God , is afraid when God comes near and speaks to him this is what Satan was trying to do seperwte man from thier trust in Gods word nd Will for them so the law is based upon this mind frame the mind frame of good and evil struggling within us this word still causes man who has sinned to be afraid and withdraw from Gods presence because it speaks death to the sinners
so for instance look at how th ey reacted when God spoke to then from Sinai
“Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.”
Deuteronomy 5:25 KJV
They are convinced God is against then his word will destroy them if they hear it anymore like Adam and Eve his away and became afraid because of good and evil conflicting in thier mind where knowledge lives
good and evil blessing and cursing
“See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;”
Deuteronomy 30:15 KJV
but then we have the tree of life the New Testament word
Remember how they were saying “ if we hear his word we’re going to die for sure “
That’s satans deception but This is the truth man forgot
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
instewd of men saying “don’t listen to god you’ll die for sure “ Jesus came saying anyone who hears and believes in me will never perish but will have eterbal life
jesus and the gospel is there to convince us we need Gods word we need to love it and not be afraid to hear it because this is truth
“And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.”
Luke 4:4 KJV
i see the law as the tree of good and evils knowledge and the gospel as the tree of life and the true knowledge of God and his children purposed from the beginning
i see Eden as a microcosm of the world and Adam a sort of microcosm of man
you have adams experience he received a commandment instructing him what not to do or he would die, but before this God told him to freely eat of any tree in Eden this included the tree of life so adam has an informed decision to make after receiving the commandment not before but after he is informed by God
“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 2:16-17
look at thier stete here before sin
“And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
Genesis 2:25
Now look at how every th ing changes between God and man remember God had placed Adam in Eden by his Will then informed Adam now look what happens
“And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
Genesis 3:6, 8-11, 23-24 KJV
this is the break on our relationship with God the moment man is rejected based on thier sin this moment in history is why man needs to be saved and redeemed and have thoer relationship with God reconciled because they ate from the tree of corrupted knowledge
Knowledge is the key to the fall knowledge of good v evil and the conflict it contains and produces within mankind man isnt made to have good and evil conflicting in our minds thisnisnwhy the knowledge was forbidden we were already made pure and right but then became corrupt by our own free Will and a deception by the devil
the old covenant reflects adams attitude after they sinned he became afraid to hear Gods word or be in Gods presence
See this part this isn’t Gods design it is a work of the devil
and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid,
Think of that Adam the beloved creation and son of God , is afraid when God comes near and speaks to him this is what Satan was trying to do seperwte man from thier trust in Gods word nd Will for them so the law is based upon this mind frame the mind frame of good and evil struggling within us this word still causes man who has sinned to be afraid and withdraw from Gods presence because it speaks death to the sinners
so for instance look at how th ey reacted when God spoke to then from Sinai
“Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.”
Deuteronomy 5:25 KJV
They are convinced God is against then his word will destroy them if they hear it anymore like Adam and Eve his away and became afraid because of good and evil conflicting in thier mind where knowledge lives
good and evil blessing and cursing
“See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;”
Deuteronomy 30:15 KJV
but then we have the tree of life the New Testament word
Remember how they were saying “ if we hear his word we’re going to die for sure “
That’s satans deception but This is the truth man forgot
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
instewd of men saying “don’t listen to god you’ll die for sure “ Jesus came saying anyone who hears and believes in me will never perish but will have eterbal life
jesus and the gospel is there to convince us we need Gods word we need to love it and not be afraid to hear it because this is truth
“And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.”
Luke 4:4 KJV
i see the law as the tree of good and evils knowledge and the gospel as the tree of life and the true knowledge of God and his children purposed from the beginning
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Thank you for your response. 
I did see you commented about this issue a few posts after I asked the question.
I did see you commented about this issue a few posts after I asked the question.
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I can't help but think that some scriptures contradict your understanding. I am genuinely interested in your thoughts concerning scriptures such as Matthew 7:23, and Acts 17:30. In Matthew, the individuals believed in Jesus yet heard the dreaded words, "I never knew you..." It would seem that something was wrong in regards to their foundation, since immediately after making that declaration, Jesus teaches on the importance of laying a proper foundation. The essential elements of the rebirth are part of the foundation as recorded in Hebrews 6:1-2 noted below in this post.
One could conclude that the individual's in the Matthew account heard the command essential to the NT spiritual rebirth and refused to accept it. (Acts 2:38) As for individuals who believe in Jesus and have never heard the truth concerning the rebirth, scripture states ignorance is no longer an excuse. (Acts 17:30)
I look forward to your thoughts.
Matthew 7:21-27:
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
And according to Acts 17:30 ignorance is no longer an excuse:
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"
Hebrews records aspects relevant to the foundation that Peter expressed first on the Day of Pentecost: (Acts 2)
"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." Heb 6:1-2
One could conclude that the individual's in the Matthew account heard the command essential to the NT spiritual rebirth and refused to accept it. (Acts 2:38) As for individuals who believe in Jesus and have never heard the truth concerning the rebirth, scripture states ignorance is no longer an excuse. (Acts 17:30)
I look forward to your thoughts.
Matthew 7:21-27:
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
And according to Acts 17:30 ignorance is no longer an excuse:
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"
Hebrews records aspects relevant to the foundation that Peter expressed first on the Day of Pentecost: (Acts 2)
"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." Heb 6:1-2
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i don’t mind you disagreeing brother your always respectful and adult about it . And I’m no authority so I can just try to say what I think
it depends on what you know brother
“And that servant, which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.
For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”
Luke 12:47-48 KJV
Do you see what he’s saying ? One group understands Gods Will , they don’t prepare themselves and obey though they will receive a harsh punishment because they know and willingly continue against his Will
The other group doesn’t understand his Will like the other group but they do things worthy of punishment and receive a light punishment because they didn’t know his Will
another groups actions were wrong one group knew the other didn’t
did you notice how in a family there are babies , youngsters , teens , young adults , adults , and finally old folk ? It’s the same in Gods family everyone is a constant work always pressing forward one man gets far along following Jesus the orher guy falls a lot but follows Jesus both belong to Jesus and his sacrifice can cover both thier needs
just like a baby is loves and adored and given no responsibilities at first bite her is a Christian
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
John 3:16 KJV
But as they begin to hear Jesus in who they trust they start to hear him call them to repentance and obedience not because he’s threatening but because of what he’s promising and they believe him
after the baby begins tomlewrn and grow he hears and understands more food to chew on and learn from
“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
Luke 6:46-49 KJV
Do you see how he’s saying if you hear and do and then if you hear and don’t do
In either case one has to hear forst and be made aware that’s why we can’t judge each other , God knows exactly what I know and understand nd that’s what I’m going to be held accountable table for it’s the same with each person once you know you have a need to grow up but the babes in Christ aren’t rejects they just haven’t matured yet
“For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”
Hebrews 5:12-14 KJV
If an admitted thief on the cross was saved by Jesus because he had faith in Jesus and Jesus told him not to worry about death he was going to be in paradise with him the same day , then we all have Hope brother
it’s good to talk about the right things to do for sure, but we have to be careful not to make the gospel into another form of this
“And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.”
Luke 11:46
And make sure we don’t resemble this
“Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him. And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.”
Luke 15:1-2 KJV
“But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.”
Matthew 23:13
If we make the kingdom of God something about who keeps the best rules we’ve completely missed it brother , if we make the kingdom of God about drawing near to and learning from Jesus trusting in his love wherby he gave his life for ours and his truth and word of life then we will grow by that word into it if we reject his words in the gospel we’re never going to know his Will and change
brother I believe Jesus is going to judge each believer based upon what he said and what they hears and understood and did and said and it will be between he and they , but to be saved is to truly believe in Christ of the gospel
if we hear and believe him we are going to be saved but this doesnt mean everyone will have the same harvest of fruits and deeds some of us might make it like this
“If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”
1 Corinthians 3:15 KJV
do you see how salvation is not just black and white ? Some are going to have debts To pay but will be saved in the end
“and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:
and they were judged every man according to their works.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
Revelation 20:13, 15 KJV
“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
Daniel 12:2 KJV
But some aren’t sleeping in the dust was my original point brother some won’t have to be raised up because they already are with jesus
“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
Revelation 12:10-12 KJV
See they aren’t sleeping in the dust they are in heavens kingdom before Jesus returns to earth was all I was saying but there’s another group raised up the last day and some of those also are saved after hell and death are finished
If we just trust Jesus and the gospel we’re going to be saved but we have to keep learning as we grow up and live it out but he makes us able and willing to don that with time
it depends on what you know brother
“And that servant, which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.
For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”
Luke 12:47-48 KJV
Do you see what he’s saying ? One group understands Gods Will , they don’t prepare themselves and obey though they will receive a harsh punishment because they know and willingly continue against his Will
The other group doesn’t understand his Will like the other group but they do things worthy of punishment and receive a light punishment because they didn’t know his Will
another groups actions were wrong one group knew the other didn’t
did you notice how in a family there are babies , youngsters , teens , young adults , adults , and finally old folk ? It’s the same in Gods family everyone is a constant work always pressing forward one man gets far along following Jesus the orher guy falls a lot but follows Jesus both belong to Jesus and his sacrifice can cover both thier needs
just like a baby is loves and adored and given no responsibilities at first bite her is a Christian
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
John 3:16 KJV
But as they begin to hear Jesus in who they trust they start to hear him call them to repentance and obedience not because he’s threatening but because of what he’s promising and they believe him
after the baby begins tomlewrn and grow he hears and understands more food to chew on and learn from
“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
Luke 6:46-49 KJV
Do you see how he’s saying if you hear and do and then if you hear and don’t do
In either case one has to hear forst and be made aware that’s why we can’t judge each other , God knows exactly what I know and understand nd that’s what I’m going to be held accountable table for it’s the same with each person once you know you have a need to grow up but the babes in Christ aren’t rejects they just haven’t matured yet
“For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”
Hebrews 5:12-14 KJV
If an admitted thief on the cross was saved by Jesus because he had faith in Jesus and Jesus told him not to worry about death he was going to be in paradise with him the same day , then we all have Hope brother
it’s good to talk about the right things to do for sure, but we have to be careful not to make the gospel into another form of this
“And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.”
Luke 11:46
And make sure we don’t resemble this
“Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him. And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.”
Luke 15:1-2 KJV
“But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.”
Matthew 23:13
If we make the kingdom of God something about who keeps the best rules we’ve completely missed it brother , if we make the kingdom of God about drawing near to and learning from Jesus trusting in his love wherby he gave his life for ours and his truth and word of life then we will grow by that word into it if we reject his words in the gospel we’re never going to know his Will and change
brother I believe Jesus is going to judge each believer based upon what he said and what they hears and understood and did and said and it will be between he and they , but to be saved is to truly believe in Christ of the gospel
if we hear and believe him we are going to be saved but this doesnt mean everyone will have the same harvest of fruits and deeds some of us might make it like this
“If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”
1 Corinthians 3:15 KJV
do you see how salvation is not just black and white ? Some are going to have debts To pay but will be saved in the end
“and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:
and they were judged every man according to their works.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
Revelation 20:13, 15 KJV
“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
Daniel 12:2 KJV
But some aren’t sleeping in the dust was my original point brother some won’t have to be raised up because they already are with jesus
“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
Revelation 12:10-12 KJV
See they aren’t sleeping in the dust they are in heavens kingdom before Jesus returns to earth was all I was saying but there’s another group raised up the last day and some of those also are saved after hell and death are finished
If we just trust Jesus and the gospel we’re going to be saved but we have to keep learning as we grow up and live it out but he makes us able and willing to don that with time
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That type of fear is not good for sure. We should not be afraid of the One who created us with love.
The fear of God that is encouraged in scripture is more along the lines of awe and reverence. For example,
Ecclesiastes 12:13
King James Version
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
After documenting the fruits of an experimental lifestyle of wine, women, and song, Solomon concluded it was all "vanity" and "chasing after the wind." It was empty because God was not a part of his life.
We need the Holy Spirit living within us to change our relationship with God to one of love and trust. We can't do that apart from God:
Romans 8:7
King James Version
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Adam and Eve (and humanity on the whole) chose to partake of "the wisdom of this world" which has its roots in Satan's philosophy--who needs God; you can decide for yourselves what is right and wrong.
And like you noted, that choice instantly created fear towards God because they were no longer in harmony with him. The fear also generated "enmity" as Paul highlights. Not only do we fear God with a carnal mind only, we are actually hostile towards Him as well.
As much as we desired to do things our way with our choice in Eden, history has proven time and time again that we are powerless against evil without God's protection and help. We desperately need the Holy Spirit in our lives, reversing that very poor choice we made in the Garden by Satan's lies.
The fear of God that is encouraged in scripture is more along the lines of awe and reverence. For example,
Ecclesiastes 12:13
King James Version
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
After documenting the fruits of an experimental lifestyle of wine, women, and song, Solomon concluded it was all "vanity" and "chasing after the wind." It was empty because God was not a part of his life.
We need the Holy Spirit living within us to change our relationship with God to one of love and trust. We can't do that apart from God:
Romans 8:7
King James Version
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Adam and Eve (and humanity on the whole) chose to partake of "the wisdom of this world" which has its roots in Satan's philosophy--who needs God; you can decide for yourselves what is right and wrong.
And like you noted, that choice instantly created fear towards God because they were no longer in harmony with him. The fear also generated "enmity" as Paul highlights. Not only do we fear God with a carnal mind only, we are actually hostile towards Him as well.
As much as we desired to do things our way with our choice in Eden, history has proven time and time again that we are powerless against evil without God's protection and help. We desperately need the Holy Spirit in our lives, reversing that very poor choice we made in the Garden by Satan's lies.
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Enjoyed reading through this one a lot brother thanks for taking the time and as always for your good and brotherly spirit as we seek the lord more and more
“That type of fear is not good for sure. We should not be afraid of the One who created us with love.
The fear of God that is encouraged in scripture is more along the lines of awe and reverence.”
perfectly said being afraid of
v being reverent of and understanding of who God actually is and his all powerful nature hearing th t he has been telling us from the start “ sin is death for man you need to stop sinning and live for the ways I created you for goodness righteousness truth brotherly love and kindness forgivness and peace mercy grace one giant family covering the earth who understand God and revere him as a small child does his fether
When God is provoked to anger by continual rebellion agains what is right worlds fall like this
god saw us when we followed sin into death
“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
(and it broke the lords heart )
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.”
Genesis 6:5-7
Gods wrath is not something man wants to kindle but we keep doing it
“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.”
Isaiah 24:5-6, 19-20 KJV
The reverent fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom to be afraid of God that we are afraid to hear what he’s saying because we’ll die so we keep away from him is the absence of faith that comes when a person is introduced to our lord Jesus Christ and we see who God really is and what he is really saying
when God is known through knowing Jesus the son he becomes a father , savior , a redeemer , a gentle and humble teacher , a leader and a protector a companion who never forsakes the disciple that walks after his spirit this teaches us we have to repent and start agreeing with Gods ways and following them but it’s accomplished by showing us who he really is and what he really feels about us even though we are all imperfect and guilty of sin at some point
he still loves us even after genesis 6 , even after the rebellion in the desert by Israel’s children and the worshipping of false Gods even after this
“Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,”
Ezekiel 16:1-2
Even after this
“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
Ezekiel 18:4 KJV
And even after this was determined
“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
Psalm 14:2-3
After we have all failed and fallen short God is still right there in front of us with his arms spread out wide and his voice gently calling us to listen to him because he loves us and he’s telling us how to live forever with him in his kingdom
a after we all had been proven guilty and condemned to death. BY that word “ the soul that sins shall die “
he’s proven his faithfulness and love towards us in that he became one of us and took that sentence of death upon every sinner into his own self and suffered greatly was put to shame and contempt and made a public spectacle of like a common thief all because mankind is condemned to death for thier sin so he became the one who was worthy and wasn’t like all the others and loved God and knew God and was God in the flesh
God is still trying to convince us that he is the one who is for us and that his words are true and will always come to pass based on what he’s said . Still trying to get the children trust what thier living daddy is telling them is true
“Children don’t play in the busy street where there is traffic it’s going to end in death , trust me I love you and your free but I dont want you to die stay away from the cliffs edge if your there come back away from it before you fall “
Thats Gods message to man regarding sin repent and be forgiven , now just trust me I’ll lead you home revere and trust me know my power “
V If you don’t make yourself perfect and sinless and keep every rule you find I’ll destroy you be afraid and don’t come near or I’ll destroy tou
“That type of fear is not good for sure. We should not be afraid of the One who created us with love.
The fear of God that is encouraged in scripture is more along the lines of awe and reverence.”
perfectly said being afraid of
v being reverent of and understanding of who God actually is and his all powerful nature hearing th t he has been telling us from the start “ sin is death for man you need to stop sinning and live for the ways I created you for goodness righteousness truth brotherly love and kindness forgivness and peace mercy grace one giant family covering the earth who understand God and revere him as a small child does his fether
When God is provoked to anger by continual rebellion agains what is right worlds fall like this
god saw us when we followed sin into death
“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
(and it broke the lords heart )
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.”
Genesis 6:5-7
Gods wrath is not something man wants to kindle but we keep doing it
“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.”
Isaiah 24:5-6, 19-20 KJV
The reverent fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom to be afraid of God that we are afraid to hear what he’s saying because we’ll die so we keep away from him is the absence of faith that comes when a person is introduced to our lord Jesus Christ and we see who God really is and what he is really saying
when God is known through knowing Jesus the son he becomes a father , savior , a redeemer , a gentle and humble teacher , a leader and a protector a companion who never forsakes the disciple that walks after his spirit this teaches us we have to repent and start agreeing with Gods ways and following them but it’s accomplished by showing us who he really is and what he really feels about us even though we are all imperfect and guilty of sin at some point
he still loves us even after genesis 6 , even after the rebellion in the desert by Israel’s children and the worshipping of false Gods even after this
“Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,”
Ezekiel 16:1-2
Even after this
“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
Ezekiel 18:4 KJV
And even after this was determined
“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
Psalm 14:2-3
After we have all failed and fallen short God is still right there in front of us with his arms spread out wide and his voice gently calling us to listen to him because he loves us and he’s telling us how to live forever with him in his kingdom
a after we all had been proven guilty and condemned to death. BY that word “ the soul that sins shall die “
he’s proven his faithfulness and love towards us in that he became one of us and took that sentence of death upon every sinner into his own self and suffered greatly was put to shame and contempt and made a public spectacle of like a common thief all because mankind is condemned to death for thier sin so he became the one who was worthy and wasn’t like all the others and loved God and knew God and was God in the flesh
God is still trying to convince us that he is the one who is for us and that his words are true and will always come to pass based on what he’s said . Still trying to get the children trust what thier living daddy is telling them is true
“Children don’t play in the busy street where there is traffic it’s going to end in death , trust me I love you and your free but I dont want you to die stay away from the cliffs edge if your there come back away from it before you fall “
Thats Gods message to man regarding sin repent and be forgiven , now just trust me I’ll lead you home revere and trust me know my power “
V If you don’t make yourself perfect and sinless and keep every rule you find I’ll destroy you be afraid and don’t come near or I’ll destroy tou
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this part here
“We need the Holy Spirit living within us to change our relationship with God to one of love and trust. We can't do that apart from God:”
It comes from believing the gospel and persevering in it like this notice it’s god working but also there’s a role we have to take up as the faithful believers go cling to the word of the kingdom
“When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
Matthew 13:19-23
We want his word me written on our hearts simply because we hear him and believe him that’s the process of how he writes his law on our heart
what you said there and what I’m saying meet here
“Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his Lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.”
John 15:3-4, 7-10, 12-15 KJV
What I’m saying is God works in th one who hear Jesus and believe and become his disciples because of that belief in him so his doctrine becomes the conduit by which the spirit comes into our hearts and minds our place is to begin to abide and live within his doctrine and ways and act as if this is our way now thisnis our belief bow this is our life now we have to hear the gospel of the kingdom to ever understand it and eventually enter by faith it’s then that we are told this part
“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”
2 John 1:9-10 KJV
God works in us as we hear and believe his word in the gospel we’re saved a we begin promised salvstion at the end of we believe and follow it’s sure that every believer will be saved d God will change those things in them over time tbat they still struggle with but it’s the same when we’re nearing our end on earth if God stopped being merciful and loving to us we’d all condemn ourselves again but thankfully daddy loves us dearly and won’t forsake us e just have to stay with him even if we fall down he’s not going anywhere unless we go away from him
“We need the Holy Spirit living within us to change our relationship with God to one of love and trust. We can't do that apart from God:”
It comes from believing the gospel and persevering in it like this notice it’s god working but also there’s a role we have to take up as the faithful believers go cling to the word of the kingdom
“When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
Matthew 13:19-23
We want his word me written on our hearts simply because we hear him and believe him that’s the process of how he writes his law on our heart
what you said there and what I’m saying meet here
“Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his Lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.”
John 15:3-4, 7-10, 12-15 KJV
What I’m saying is God works in th one who hear Jesus and believe and become his disciples because of that belief in him so his doctrine becomes the conduit by which the spirit comes into our hearts and minds our place is to begin to abide and live within his doctrine and ways and act as if this is our way now thisnis our belief bow this is our life now we have to hear the gospel of the kingdom to ever understand it and eventually enter by faith it’s then that we are told this part
“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”
2 John 1:9-10 KJV
God works in us as we hear and believe his word in the gospel we’re saved a we begin promised salvstion at the end of we believe and follow it’s sure that every believer will be saved d God will change those things in them over time tbat they still struggle with but it’s the same when we’re nearing our end on earth if God stopped being merciful and loving to us we’d all condemn ourselves again but thankfully daddy loves us dearly and won’t forsake us e just have to stay with him even if we fall down he’s not going anywhere unless we go away from him
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Ok Pilgrim, difficult scripture time related to the Holy Spirit as well (and our ultimate choice/combat as individuals):
Matthew 12:31-32
King James Version
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
The best explanation I've heard on this topic that is covered quite bluntly in the book of Hebrews as well gets into the concept of willingly sinning versus willfully sinning.
Willing sins come from ignorance and weakness whereas willful sins are a conscious decision to not follow God's ways nor have any desire to partake of His nature.
Even as Christians, we are still weak in many areas and sin on a regular basis (at least I do...). That's where grace and forgiveness come in as we bring our sins before the Mercy Seat.
On the other hand, if we have the Holy Spirit living within us and consciously decide that we no longer desire to have God's nature as a part of our lives, forgiveness has no bearing and isn't possible because we have willfully decided to reject God and His way of life.
It's like, "I fully understand your laws, principles, and characteristics God, but I don't want any part of it." In essence, one would be making the same choice Satan did to live in rebellion towards God willfully and eternally. I can understand why God would not want to perpetuate that mindset and lifestyle.
However, I also hold to the theory that those who make this willful choice will not "roast in hell forever." They will be blotted out of existence when they are thrown in the lake of fire. And, I also believe that the vast majority of humanity will chose to accept the Holy Spirit and live in harmony with God and His creation forever.
Matthew 12:31-32
King James Version
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
The best explanation I've heard on this topic that is covered quite bluntly in the book of Hebrews as well gets into the concept of willingly sinning versus willfully sinning.
Willing sins come from ignorance and weakness whereas willful sins are a conscious decision to not follow God's ways nor have any desire to partake of His nature.
Even as Christians, we are still weak in many areas and sin on a regular basis (at least I do...). That's where grace and forgiveness come in as we bring our sins before the Mercy Seat.
On the other hand, if we have the Holy Spirit living within us and consciously decide that we no longer desire to have God's nature as a part of our lives, forgiveness has no bearing and isn't possible because we have willfully decided to reject God and His way of life.
It's like, "I fully understand your laws, principles, and characteristics God, but I don't want any part of it." In essence, one would be making the same choice Satan did to live in rebellion towards God willfully and eternally. I can understand why God would not want to perpetuate that mindset and lifestyle.
However, I also hold to the theory that those who make this willful choice will not "roast in hell forever." They will be blotted out of existence when they are thrown in the lake of fire. And, I also believe that the vast majority of humanity will chose to accept the Holy Spirit and live in harmony with God and His creation forever.
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this part first because it’s fresh in my mind after reading
“However, I also hold to the theory that those who make this willful choice will not "roast in hell forever." They will be blotted out of existence when they are thrown in the lake of fire.”
agreed hell is a holding place for the wicked and a place where dues are paid until the resurrection of the righteous and wicked at the last judgement the lake of fire is the second and final death of all that is corrupt in the creation
“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:
and another book was opened, which is the book of life:
and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
…and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
Revelation 20:12-15 KJV
The very next verse after explaining the second death in John apocalypse says this
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”
Revelation 21:1 KJV
“And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:4, 7-8 KJV
ultimately we’re being saved from perishing with the first creation
this being said until then he’ll is a real place of terrible anguish I think the Bible bears it out pretty clearly there’s an end for it but not until this world ends and the dead are raised and judged that’s why we need this so we see t among the group of the dead raised in the end
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
John 8:51
“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
John 11:25-26 KJV
Some like this man won’t be among the dead who need raised from death and hell
“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
Luke 23:43 KJV
His body was about to die but Jesus was talking to him within the life in him that man isn’t in hell or the grave he’s here
“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
Revelation 12:10-12 KJV
but in the end all that lived and died are raised up and will be judged and whoever hasn’t accepted the gospel is going to be destroyed forever whoever has will be delivered
“However, I also hold to the theory that those who make this willful choice will not "roast in hell forever." They will be blotted out of existence when they are thrown in the lake of fire.”
agreed hell is a holding place for the wicked and a place where dues are paid until the resurrection of the righteous and wicked at the last judgement the lake of fire is the second and final death of all that is corrupt in the creation
“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:
and another book was opened, which is the book of life:
and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
…and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
Revelation 20:12-15 KJV
The very next verse after explaining the second death in John apocalypse says this
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”
Revelation 21:1 KJV
“And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:4, 7-8 KJV
ultimately we’re being saved from perishing with the first creation
this being said until then he’ll is a real place of terrible anguish I think the Bible bears it out pretty clearly there’s an end for it but not until this world ends and the dead are raised and judged that’s why we need this so we see t among the group of the dead raised in the end
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
John 8:51
“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
John 11:25-26 KJV
Some like this man won’t be among the dead who need raised from death and hell
“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
Luke 23:43 KJV
His body was about to die but Jesus was talking to him within the life in him that man isn’t in hell or the grave he’s here
“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
Revelation 12:10-12 KJV
but in the end all that lived and died are raised up and will be judged and whoever hasn’t accepted the gospel is going to be destroyed forever whoever has will be delivered
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this part
“Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”
i like to look for contemporary scripture to explain Before I conclude so if we look at what Jesus was addressing it was that they saw him casting out devils by the Holy Spirit and said “ he’s doing these things by the devils hand beelzebub “
then Jesus says “ blasphemy against the Holy Ghost won’t be forgiven “ see tbey saw what God was doing and saying , but they rejected him and called him a devil and blasphemer they said “ his spirit is evil it’s of Satan “ they were literally slandering and insulting Jesus own spirit of holiness that is the source of life for mankind because they didn’t like that he had power and they didn’t
“And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: but he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:”
Mark 3:22-24, 26, 28-29 KJV
Which you see the contemporary here the same account but in matthews words rather than marks
“And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: ….
which leads again to his lesson conclusion
…….Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”
Matthew 12:23-25, 31-32 KJV
The point and just my opinion I’m no authority for certain but my opinion is that Jesus is responding to those who said “ Jesus is working miracles by the power of Satan “ they were giving Satan the credit for what God was doing to convince the people to believe in Jesus and be saved
literally this was Israel’s original sin when God delivered them , they made a calf of gold and began worshipping it saying “ this is our god who saved us from Egypt “
now the real God is standing I. Front of then doing miracles raising the dead healing the blind and lame and sick and leperous and they are now saying “ this is the devils work “
I think willful sin of a Christian wouldn’t have part in interpreting this they were willfully out to get Jesus because he had real power and he was fulfilling the prophecies and they didnt want to lose thier power over the people
willful sin to me is when we keep making reasons why it’s okay to keep sinning
“Now I’m a Christian so I don’t need to repent and live upright “ now I believe so I don’t need To obey God “ Jesus died so now any thing I do wrong is already forgiven if I sin a thousand times over I’m already saved and forgiven and will never have to answer for anything i do and say “
this mindset is an reason of why I dont need to stop sinning and obey God
to me if I really think that but. Keep seeing in scripture that I’m dead wrong and I won’t acknolwedge it it’s because I’m willful and deeply wanting to bring my own sins into life with me built in refuse of why I never need to actually do what God says is willful sin in my own belief and wrong belief like that is what keeps us from changing by faith
“Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”
i like to look for contemporary scripture to explain Before I conclude so if we look at what Jesus was addressing it was that they saw him casting out devils by the Holy Spirit and said “ he’s doing these things by the devils hand beelzebub “
then Jesus says “ blasphemy against the Holy Ghost won’t be forgiven “ see tbey saw what God was doing and saying , but they rejected him and called him a devil and blasphemer they said “ his spirit is evil it’s of Satan “ they were literally slandering and insulting Jesus own spirit of holiness that is the source of life for mankind because they didn’t like that he had power and they didn’t
“And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: but he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:”
Mark 3:22-24, 26, 28-29 KJV
Which you see the contemporary here the same account but in matthews words rather than marks
“And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: ….
which leads again to his lesson conclusion
…….Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”
Matthew 12:23-25, 31-32 KJV
The point and just my opinion I’m no authority for certain but my opinion is that Jesus is responding to those who said “ Jesus is working miracles by the power of Satan “ they were giving Satan the credit for what God was doing to convince the people to believe in Jesus and be saved
literally this was Israel’s original sin when God delivered them , they made a calf of gold and began worshipping it saying “ this is our god who saved us from Egypt “
now the real God is standing I. Front of then doing miracles raising the dead healing the blind and lame and sick and leperous and they are now saying “ this is the devils work “
I think willful sin of a Christian wouldn’t have part in interpreting this they were willfully out to get Jesus because he had real power and he was fulfilling the prophecies and they didnt want to lose thier power over the people
willful sin to me is when we keep making reasons why it’s okay to keep sinning
“Now I’m a Christian so I don’t need to repent and live upright “ now I believe so I don’t need To obey God “ Jesus died so now any thing I do wrong is already forgiven if I sin a thousand times over I’m already saved and forgiven and will never have to answer for anything i do and say “
this mindset is an reason of why I dont need to stop sinning and obey God
to me if I really think that but. Keep seeing in scripture that I’m dead wrong and I won’t acknolwedge it it’s because I’m willful and deeply wanting to bring my own sins into life with me built in refuse of why I never need to actually do what God says is willful sin in my own belief and wrong belief like that is what keeps us from changing by faith
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That's good book, also Paul says in (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. (See exodus 20: 1-17)
This is God’s definition of love and it is perfect in its ways. The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: The judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: And in keeping of them there is great reward. (Psalm 19: 7-11)
Because walking in the Spirit keeps one from sinning and doing evil, Jesus say in Matthew 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Jesus also says in
John (14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments. One does not have to guess at Jesus definition of love He made it clear. John (14:21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.