"I ask then why do people say Israel must go through the Tribulation?" Jeremiah 30.6. paraphrased.

[cv5]

Resurrection already took place? So now we are in the new heaven and new earth? I don't think so. The world is in a terrible spot and even humans can do better than this, let alone God.

Atleast you are consistent in your preterism, so I respect that. But I will never agree with what you believe so and consider it in error, but have a good day and God bless you. I wont debate it, just wanted to hear whats what.

My God is NOT a floundering faithless capricious covenant breaker, as some here would woefully proclaim.

We both know He is none of those things. Of this I am grateful.

I trust we both worship Who we know for Who He really Is.

 

[cv5]

Your lack of understanding doesn't negate truth. I never claimed everything has been fulfilled so your assertions again are false. Back to your usual tactics. Have a great day.

I once (farily recently) left a Church headed by a slithery bogus pastor who was jive-talking about eschatology too.

Seemed to me he never produced a straight answer on purpose. Sound familiar?

 

[Nehemiah6]

The fact that their Temple is still up and functioning (see Rev. 11) suggests that revelation was written before the destruction of this temple in 70 AD.

Did you even read Revelation 11? And then read Revelation 12? And then see 42 months in both chapters? And then realize that that was all about a future temple in John's vision? It is about the reign of the Antichrist. And there was no reign of the Antichrist at that time, or any time since then. That is a future event and even Christ called it a future event. He prophesied of the destruction of the temple which was standing in His presence, then spoke about the Abomination of Desolation which would stand in a future temple in Jerusalem. So how do people get such BIZARRE and unbiblical ideas?

 

[Grace911]

The timing of Matthew 24:15-20 / Mark 13:14-18 / Luke 21:20-23a is at the onset of the events of circa 70 A.D.

The 'those' who are 'in Judea' are Christians.

The very words "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains" shows us very plainly that this is a 'local' event of that era and not a "world stage" event in our modern day.

Mat_24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Daniel the prophet was seeing End of Days, which is where we are NOW. We should be looking for something to be set up or that completely devastates that which is in Judea. Winter in Bible language is the "wetter" season in September/October. The Sabbath will always be from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.

If March 11, 2020 is the event that starts the 1290 day count, we should be seeing something erected or slaughtered or bombed on Friday September 22, 2023. The inhabitants who are in the Judaea area should flee to the mountains as quickly as possible. Some type of army and devastation will be happening. There are Jews, Christians and Muslims in that area presently.

One type of bomb intrigues me that it can kill people and animals but leave the infrastructure still in tact. The anti-christ will probably want that infrastructure. I do not see September 2023 a good time for visitors to visit Jerusalem.

 

[cv5]

Did you even read Revelation 11? And then read Revelation 12? And then see 42 months in both chapters? And then realize that that was all about a future temple in John's vision? It is about the reign of the Antichrist. And there was no reign of the Antichrist at that time, or any time since then. That is a future event and even Christ called it a future event. He prophesied of the destruction of the temple which was standing in His presence, then spoke about the Abomination of Desolation which would stand in a future temple in Jerusalem. So how do people get such BIZARRE and unbiblical ideas?

It seems to me that when the desired result is "kicking Israel to the curb", any unbiblical convoluted scheme will do, be it preterism or historicism or whatever else produces the same outcome.

What I find amazing is that views contrary to futurism have zero hope for the world. Christ does not return to enforce peace on the earth. Israel is not redeemed. The Church is not raptured. We are all left hanging in a world that is obviously hurling into chaos and catastrophe.

The FACT is that Revelation is a book of ENDINGS. Ultimately the end of Satan, sin and death, in a manner that is exquisitely detailed in the most florid and descriptive terms imaginable. To occur in a near-future 7 year cataclysm centered on the planet earth, more specifically Israel and even more specifically Jerusalem. Exactly as God has earlier specified by His prophets of old.

 

[posthuman]

Yes Jesus did return circa 70 AD. The promised rapture of believers occurred before the destruction of Israel. We were never intended to be rapture. We aren't in any danger. The only reason you believe in a future rapture is because you believe a great tribulation remains. How different would your outlook be if you believed it had already occurred?

im not sure I understand - are we almost 2,000 years into the 1,000 year millennium, now, then?

 

[Cameron143]

im not sure I understand - are we almost 2,000 years into the 1,000 year millennium, now, then?

Yes. There is no literal 1000 year reign. The church age will go on for a long time. Revelation 7:9 says heaven will be populated by a number of inhabitants that no man can number.
Just out of curiosity, how big do you figure a number that no man can number will be?

 

[cv5]

im not sure I understand - are we almost 2,000 years into the 1,000 year millennium, now, then?

That is EXACTLY what I was thinking. What they propose is an epic fail on every level.
This, of course, is to be expected. All Scripture must (and does) harmonize and concatenate flawlessly.

If you actually understand it to begin with that is. If you do not....anything goes.

 

[montana123]

Sometimes our eyes just pass over massive statements of doctrine in the bible. Jeremiah 30 makes it startlingly clear who will and who will not go through the Great Tribulation.
Jeremiah. 30.4-6
These are the words which the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah
"thus says the Lord
we have heard a cry of panic, of terror and not peace, ask now and see, can a man bear a child?
why then do I see every man with his hand on his loins like a woman in labour? Why has every face turned pale? ....

7 .... Alas for that day is so great, there is none like it, it is even the time of Jacob's trouble BUT

BUT he shall be saved out of it."

Israel according to the flesh is God's firstborn son, spiritual Israel, the church, is the Bride. Both have promises made to them. To the one promises related to the earth, the land. To the other promises relating to heaven.

Here we see it is the woman, the Spouse who must endure the birth pangs The great tribulation. The church is impregnated and must give birth to the new creation, Israel according to the flesh must be converted.

The disciples asked Jesus if He was going to restore the kingdom to Israel at that time and He said the Father will do it in His own time.

God said that He will gather the whole house of Israel back to their land, and leave none of them in the nations anymore, and they shall know the LORD their God from that time forward and He will never hide His face from them again.

Which means Israel will always be in the truth from that point forward so this has to be a future prophesy.

God is going to give world their way for 7 years to rebel against the truth, and when they do then He will end sin on Earth.

The New Age Christ/antichrist shall establish peace in the Middle East and it will pave the way for all Hebrews to go back to the land of Israel for the Gentile nations will see that it happens, and the New Age Christ wants them all back on their land.

The world will be split in to 10 sections, and for the first three and one half years salvation is still available to the world.

When the world follows the New Age Christ and takes his mark then salvation is no longer available to the world and God will then turn to Israel and send them 2 witnesses who will preach to them for the last three and one half years and at the end of that time Israel as a nation will be in the truth.

The Bible says Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in and so all Israel shall be saved.

Some people think the Church replaces Israel but Israel is the Church.

From Abraham to David to Jesus to the millennial reign of Christ to the New Jerusalem it is Israel all the way.

Which the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles of the Lamb are written in the New Jerusalem.

That is why a Gentile when saved becomes a Jew inward, and is part of the commonwealth of Israel.

The Gentile becomes part of the nation of Israel because it is Israel all the way.

Paul said God has not cast off His people that He once foreknew.

God said if the ordinances in heaven are still in operation the sun, moon, and stars, then His covenant is still with Israel, and they shall never cease to be a nation.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

During the first three and one half years Israel as a nation is protected from physical attack.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

During the last three and one half years Israel as a nation is protected from physical attack.

But the Jews that turn to Jesus will be persecuted along with the Gentiles that are with Jesus, but Israel as a nation is protected for the 7 years period until the battle of Armageddon which is part of the wrath of God on the world which then they will attack Israel and Jesus will save them.

 

[cv5]

Yes. There is no literal 1000 year reign. The church age will go on for a long time.

Therefore, accord to your theory there will be no reign whatsoever at all. Which is of course is impossible.

I mean, what do you think all of this inheriting a Kingdom business is about anyways? Men twaddling on and toiling in vain to iron out their problems and troubles?

Mat 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Luk 22:29
And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Get a clue man. What do these passages mean to you? I will tell you what it DOES NOT mean: It does NOT mean that Israel is kicked to the curb. What it DOES mean is that the 70th week of Daniel and redemption of Israel is inevitable and yet future.

Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Luk 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

[Cameron143]

No, that's not what I believe. But you are a very unpleasant person to discuss things with so I'll wish you a blessed evening.

 

[cv5]

No, that's not what I believe. But you are a very unpleasant person to discuss things with so I'll wish you a blessed evening.

Unpleasantly right? So change the channel. Okay I get it.

 

[posthuman]

Just out of curiosity, how big do you figure a number that no man can number will be?

"uncountably many" is not necessarily infinite, it just means there is no bijection onto the natural numbers.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

For me full futurist eschatology is error refuting error and there will never be an end to it until we are all dead I guess.

Israel had a choice to make when Jesus walked the earth and they blew it... " we have no king but Ceasar"

There is nothing more I can say really.

They also had over 40 year after His ascension to repent.

 

[Cameron143]

"uncountably many" is not necessarily infinite, it just means there is no bijection onto the natural numbers.

I'm surprised you deflected. It's a more important question than you might realize.

 

[posthuman]

I'm surprised you deflected. It's a more important question than you might realize.

It is not a deflection.
If no man can number it, why are you asking me to number it?

But what it says is that it is uncountable.
That literally means no 1:1 and onto function from that set of people to {1, 2, 3, 4, ... N} exists.

My point is, when God says it isn't possible to count, He's not telling us that in order to try counting it. that's not the same as saying "infinity" - infinity can be either countable or not, and uncountably many can be either infinite or not.

You asked an unanswerable question, so i focused on what He did tell us. no bijection. He told us math.

 

[posthuman]

I'm surprised you deflected. It's a more important question than you might realize.

It's a wonderful question,

 

[cv5]

Yes. There is no literal 1000 year reign. The church age will go on for a long time. Revelation 7:9 says heaven will be populated by a number of inhabitants that no man can number.
Just out of curiosity, how big do you figure a number that no man can number will be?

These Biblical truths contained in types and patterns may have escaped your attention:

-the Seven Feasts of Moses demands the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus and an earthy Kingdom
-the conquest of Canaan by Joshua demands the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus in a spectacular showing of power and glory, this to lay waste to the man of sin and his armies
-the conquest of David.....likewise

Did you fail to notice these many passages pertaining to same? Perhaps you sort of "kicked them to the curb" so to speak......

Isa 66:18
For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

Mat 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Mat 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mar 8:38
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Mar 10:37
They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.

Mar 13:26
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

 

[HeIsHere]

They also had over 40 year after His ascension to repent.

So true, that had not really occurred to me.

But Jesus knew.

But turning to them Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.
Luke 23:28

 

[Nehemiah6]

There is no literal 1000 year reign.

Another naysayer in spite of "a (the) thousand years" being repeated SIX TIMES in seven verses. Which means that there will be a literal, visible, tangible, physical and spiritual reign of Christ on earth for ONE THOUSAND YEARS immediately after He returns "with power and great glory". The Greek chilia ete is repeated over and over again so that no one should miss the significance of this event.

So now the question arises: "How do Christians go off the rails so easily?" And the answer is because THEY DO NOT REALLY BELIEVE GOD. To believe God is to take His Word at face value without any argument.