"I ask then why do people say Israel must go through the Tribulation?" Jeremiah 30.6. paraphrased.

[Evmur]

Sometimes our eyes just pass over massive statements of doctrine in the bible. Jeremiah 30 makes it startlingly clear who will and who will not go through the Great Tribulation.
Jeremiah. 30.4-6
These are the words which the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah
"thus says the Lord
we have heard a cry of panic, of terror and not peace, ask now and see, can a man bear a child?
why then do I see every man with his hand on his loins like a woman in labour? Why has every face turned pale? ....

7 .... Alas for that day is so great, there is none like it, it is even the time of Jacob's trouble BUT

BUT he shall be saved out of it."

Israel according to the flesh is God's firstborn son, spiritual Israel, the church, is the Bride. Both have promises made to them. To the one promises related to the earth, the land. To the other promises relating to heaven.

Here we see it is the woman, the Spouse who must endure the birth pangs The great tribulation. The church is impregnated and must give birth to the new creation, Israel according to the flesh must be converted.

 

[HeIsHere]

Modern day Israel is not the Israel of scripture. Problem solved.

 

[seekingthemindofChrist]

Modern day Israel is not the Israel of scripture. Problem solved.

Can you please elaborate a bit on what you mean?

Thank you.

 

[HeIsHere]

Can you please elaborate a bit on what you mean?

Thank you.

To whom was Jesus speaking in Matthew 24?

 

[seekingthemindofChrist]

To whom was Jesus speaking in Matthew 24?

Do not assume that I am disagreeing with you.

I simply asked for you to please elaborate on what you said.

You are not obligated to do so, but if you choose to do so, then please do it plainly.

Thank you.

 

[HeIsHere]

Do not assume that I am disagreeing with you.

I simply asked for you to please elaborate on what you said.

You are not obligated to do so, but if you choose to do so, then please do it plainly.

Thank you.

I Just wanted to have a sense of your understanding of Matthew 24.

God destroyed Israel in 70 AD. All the genealogy records were destroyed.
They rejected the Messiah. They had fulfilled their role.
There is neither Jew nor Gentile in the new age of Grace.
The inhabitants of Isreal can choose to believe or not like everyone else.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Modern day Israel is not the Israel of scripture. Problem solved.

Yes and No. Who is living in the land surrounding Jerusalem? Is it mainly unbelieving Jews? And is that not modern day Israel? Jerusalem is the key to Bible prophecy. The Antichrist (a renegade Jew) will rule the world from Jerusalem. The two witnesses/prophets will preach during his reign from Jerusalem. The battle of Armageddon will take place just outside Jerusalem. And Christ will set His feet on the Mount of Olives just outside Jerusalem (from where He also ascended). Eventually God will redeem and restore Jerusalem, which presently in His sight is spiritually Sodom and Egypt. Totally corrupt.

Before that there is no question that both modern day and Israel and Jewry worldwide will face the Tribulation. But there will be a believing remnant of Jews during that period. Many will be martyred and many will escape martyrdom. Everything is not cut and dried since there are many overlapping prophecies which are all glimpses of the total picture.

 

[Nehemiah6]

God destroyed Israel in 70 AD. All the genealogy records were destroyed.

And yet we have the twelve tribes presented in Revelation 7 and 14 as well as in Ezekiel 48 (and all these are future events). So a myopic view of Israel will help no one. God knows what is what and who is who.

 

[Cameron143]

Jesus is the key to all Bible prophecy.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes and No. Who is living in the land surrounding Jerusalem? Is it mainly unbelieving Jews? And is that not modern day Israel? Jerusalem is the key to Bible prophecy. The Antichrist (a renegade Jew) will rule the world from Jerusalem. The two witnesses/prophets will preach during his reign from Jerusalem. The battle of Armageddon will take place just outside Jerusalem. And Christ will set His feet on the Mount of Olives just outside Jerusalem (from where He also ascended). Eventually God will redeem and restore Jerusalem, which presently in His sight is spiritually Sodom and Egypt. Totally corrupt.

Before that there is no question that both modern day and Israel and Jewry worldwide will face the Tribulation. But there will be a believing remnant of Jews during that period. Many will be martyred and many will escape martyrdom. Everything is not cut and dried since there are many overlapping prophecies which are all glimpses of the total picture.

For me full futurist eschatology is error refuting error and there will never be an end to it until we are all dead I guess.

Israel had a choice to make when Jesus walked the earth and they blew it... " we have no king but Ceasar"

There is nothing more I can say really.

 

[posthuman]

Sometimes our eyes just pass over massive statements of doctrine in the bible. Jeremiah 30 makes it startlingly clear who will and who will not go through the Great Tribulation.
Jeremiah. 30.4-6
These are the words which the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah
"thus says the Lord
we have heard a cry of panic, of terror and not peace, ask now and see, can a man bear a child?
why then do I see every man with his hand on his loins like a woman in labour? Why has every face turned pale? ....

7 .... Alas for that day is so great, there is none like it, it is even the time of Jacob's trouble BUT

BUT he shall be saved out of it."

Israel according to the flesh is God's firstborn son, spiritual Israel, the church, is the Bride. Both have promises made to them. To the one promises related to the earth, the land. To the other promises relating to heaven.

Here we see it is the woman, the Spouse who must endure the birth pangs The great tribulation. The church is impregnated and must give birth to the new creation, Israel according to the flesh must be converted.

 

[Evmur]

I Just wanted to have a sense of your understanding of Matthew 24.

God destroyed Israel in 70 AD. All the genealogy records were destroyed.
They rejected the Messiah. They had fulfilled their role.
There is neither Jew nor Gentile in the new age of Grace.
The inhabitants of Isreal can choose to believe or not like everyone else.

God did not destroy Israel in 70AD

He had them carried off captive to every nation, Just as Jesus said. He said Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until ....
until the times of the Gentiles be complete.

In the church is neither Jew or Gentile ... but still there are the Jews, they are not Gentiles, they are very recognisably Jews. They've ALWAYS been recognisably Jewish down through the long centuries of their diaspora. They have been hunted down and persecuted by the nations they have sojourned because of their Jewishness.

Hitler knew who they were.

Now they are back in their homeland. Just as Jewish as they've ever been.

YOU say God is finished with them the bible says different.

They can choose you say, who chooses God? I think God chooses us.

God chose Israel .... oh Election means choose.
"So then they are enemies of the gospel for your sakes but as touching ELECTION they are BELOVÉD for the sake of the fathers [oh] for gifts and call of God are irrevocable" Ro:11.

Whereas we do not choose God but God chooses us Gentiles individually, one by one, with the Jews is different. God chose them as a NATION. He blessed them as a nation and chastised them as a nation. They fell as a nation and they will rise again as a nation. Ro:11.

The only covenant God has ever made is with Israel. We have graciously been included in the contract God made with Israel.

It's not becoming of us to exult ourselves against the people God made a contract with. If you cut the Jews out where is your contract?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Jesus is the key to all Bible prophecy.

But much of end time prophecy does deal with Israel and the promises God has yet to keep to the Jews.

 

[posthuman]

The only covenant God has ever made is with Israel. We have graciously been included in the contract God made with Israel.

only point i disagree with in your post is here - there are several covenants in the scripture, and in fact it is the covenant with Abraham, who is not an Israelite but the father of them, into which we are grafted in.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Jesus is the key to all Bible prophecy.

The one does not negate the other. Jesus is the key to the whole Bible, but we are talking about the future of Israel. And Jerusalem is at the core of all prophecies pertaining to Israel. Jerusalem has a very special place in God's plans.

 

[Evmur]

View attachment 253661

Then let me splain

It is called the time of Jacob's trouble because of the trouble which is about to come upon the nations because of the way they have treated the Jews during their long diaspora.

God has got a quarrel to settle with the nations. It is very unfortunate that the church not only is in the nations but in large measure is part of and oft times has taken the lead in persecuting the Jews ... the church needs to repent of this. Perhaps the Tribulation will help us.

And it is not me [who am I but a dead dog?] who says that God will save the Jews during the time of Jacob's trouble it is God
Jeremiah. 30.7.
"...alas for that day is very great it is even the time of Jacob's trouble BUT..... He shall be SAVED out of it"
verse 10
Then fear not O Jacob My servant says the Lord nor be dismayed O Israel for lo I will save you from afar and your offspring from the land of their captivity.
11.
and Jacob shall return and have QUIET and EASE and none shall make him afraid."

Daniel 12.1. confirms this
speaking about the tribulation "Michael the mighty cherub who has the care of your people will stand up at that time your people will be saved"

As say the other prophets if read carefully.

 

[Evmur]

only point i disagree with in your post is here - there are several covenants in the scripture, and in fact it is the covenant with Abraham, who is not an Israelite but the father of them, into which we are grafted in.

Abe was a Hebrew.

 

[posthuman]

Then let me splain

It is called the time of Jacob's trouble because of the trouble which is about to come upon the nations because of the way they have treated the Jews during their long diaspora.

God has got a quarrel to settle with the nations. It is very unfortunate that the church not only is in the nations but in large measure is part of and oft times has taken the lead in persecuting the Jews ... the church needs to repent of this. Perhaps the Tribulation will help us.

And it is not me [who am I but a dead dog?] who says that God will save the Jews during the time of Jacob's trouble it is God
Jeremiah. 30.7.
"...alas for that day is very great it is even the time of Jacob's trouble BUT..... He shall be SAVED out of it"
verse 10
Then fear not O Jacob My servant says the Lord nor be dismayed O Israel for lo I will save you from afar and your offspring from the land of their captivity.
11.
and Jacob shall return and have QUIET and EASE and none shall make him afraid."

Daniel 12.1. confirms this
speaking about the tribulation "Michael the mighty cherub who has the care of your people will stand up at that time your people will be saved"

As say the other prophets if read carefully.

Jeremiah 30:11
'For I am with you,’
says the Lord,
‘to save you;
Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you,
Yet I will not make a complete end of you.
But I will correct you in justice,
And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’

this doesn't say Jacob will be removed from the world or unpersecuted. it says he will survive his punishment: Israel will be saved.

 

[posthuman]

Abe was a Hebrew.

And also are all the Arabs descended from Ishmael, a son of Abraham.

But Israel is the name of Jacob and his descendants, one of Abraham’s grandkids.

Mt. Sinai is a covenant with Israel specifically, not all descendants of Shem.

 

[Magenta]

there are several covenants in the scripture

Adamic Covenant, Noahic Covenant, Abrahamic Covenant, Palestinian
Covenant, Mosaic Covenant, Davidic Covenant, the New Covenant. .