Has the Church Helped in Teaching Sexual Purity?

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I don't know. Who would you say should be teaching them? And what kind of protocol should be used?

If I had sons I would hope that my husband would step into that place but then I think it can be done as a couple for sons and daughters. But the church should be backing up that authority. Somehow the church just isn't in the family equation at all. I see marriages falling apart, kids going on meds to cope at school, a lot of confusion around sex and gender. It's like parents are at a loss as to how to deal with any of this and the church is just as bad.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I can only speak from my own experience and my answer is no. Seems to me, before the sexual revolution it was taught more; but since the 1960s it's become a taboo subject. Thankfully, with the explosion of internet porn and because so many people have fallen prey to it, specialized ministries are cropping up to help. Honestly, I think it's been avoided for so long because so many clergy and lay people alike are involved in sexual impurity, so it's easier to just not talk about it.

I remember an experience I had when I was younger. I grew up in a United Methodist Chruch and there was this man everyone seemed to consider a pillar of the church. A friend of mine was related to him and one day we were at the man's house. In his workshop he had a calendar with a nude woman posing on it. Another time, when I was a little older, I was walking down the street in front of a porn shop and out comes this other man I knew from that same church. He was married and I guess he could say he was in there buying something to spice up his love life with his wife. But should Christians really be going into a porn shop? So many stories like this I coud tell. I'm not saying I've been a saint all my life, just saying there are many people caught up in sexual sin and need spiritual help.

I would agree, all of this is at teens fingertips nowdays. They don't have to seek it out, it's all there. I wonder though if there is an attitude of "boys will be boys" and it makes them a man. I know my BIL was always fearful that my nephews would become gay. He had a lot of the toughen up, man up attitude. He said that boys that spent too much time with their mother would become gay. I countered with boys with overbearing fathers that they were afraid of would become gay. Anyway this is the south, and I wonder if their attitude to raising men is different to what I'm use to being raised in Canada. It seems the devil knows our weakness and keeps us entangled to not only can we not get free of it, we can't help anyone else. I recall both my nephews saying they didn't have girlfriends because all the girls in their school were lesbians or would go both ways. I found that rather stunning.

 

[ResidentAlien]

If I had sons I would hope that my husband would step into that place but then I think it can be done as a couple for sons and daughters. But the church should be backing up that authority. Somehow the church just isn't in the family equation at all. I see marriages falling apart, kids going on meds to cope at school, a lot of confusion around sex and gender. It's like parents are at a loss as to how to deal with any of this and the church is just as bad.

Yes, I agree. It's the mother and father's responsibility. The church should be more supportive but unfortunately the church has been told politely by the family to butt out. There was a time when the church had more authority with people, but people became too smart for that. Now they dictate to the church what it can and can't do.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

even if all that was ever preached from the pulpit was purity, think about just that one hour a week compared to the very LOUD voice of society 24/7.

Thank you, that is such a good point. The secular has your children for how many hours a day? Then tv, friends and social media. How can you make a dent in that. My nephews were in Christian school for a few years and when high school came up my sister decided to take the boys out and put them in regular school. Her husband pushed and said they couldn't afford it, he owned a plane at the time. They aren't my kids but we had the boys that weekend and we had them out hiking trails. I remember crying and my husband asking what in the world I was so upset about. I had a bad feeling about them going to secular school at that age. I saw changes in both of them when they went to regular school. The first thing they wanted to put the boys on meds. I was upset but again, not my children. There was no reason to put the boys on meds, but the teacher said they couldn't "concentrate" properly without them. One time when they were visiting my youngest nephew said that his brother was sleeping with a knife under his pillow! When I asked him about it, he said he didn't feel safe to sleep. Then my mother and I caught the youngest hoarding garbage under the bed and in the bathroom. My sister confessed they were having an issue with him doing it at home too. Neither of the boys had those issues in Christian school or before they went on meds. I have a very low opinion of these meds they hand out like candy. They are off the meds now, but I do believe it changed them somehow.

 

[JohnDB]

Yes, I agree. It's the mother and father's responsibility. The church should be more supportive but unfortunately the church has been told politely by the family to butt out. There was a time when the church had more authority with people, but people became too smart for that. Now they dictate to the church what it can and can't do.

Believe it or not....

Between Reddit, YouTube, and other sites the word is out.

Especially among men. Sure there are "dogs" who will sleep with any women they can get....but the whole "me too" thing has slowed some of that down.

Men are refusing to have anything to do with public bicycles. Where women are told that they are supposedly being empowered by having a high body count they are finding out that good, stable, men want nothing to do with "damaged goods" that have seen more male genitalia than a public toilet.

Purity matters to guys of substance!

Sure the Chad's and Tyrones say anything to jump in the sack but they never stay around to build a family with. And a lot of potentially good women have been talked into "women's empowerment " and becoming a bicycle for the men....sometimes throwing away so easily what real treasures they already had in husbands and children. They try to get them back but finding out that once the match was struck and lit....it doesn't work anymore when blown out. And trying to build a new life after deliberately destroying your previous life doesn't work either. Guys have caught on and ain't having it or anything to do with anything that smells like that.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I think another big elephant in the room regarding sexual purity is the ideal that ALL male sexuality is inherently "dirty" and "harmful to women".

Some of this comes from the idea of asceticism, which teaches that all physical needs/pleasures are bad and that one should always avoid such if he/she wants to remain spiritual. Some of it also comes from the (mis)use of Jesus' warning against adultery in the heart as a "hammer" or "club" on Christian men. I could go into a long explanation of what the word "lust" means in the context of Matthew 5, but the gist is that Matthew 5:28 has been interpreted by some to mean that anytime a man looks at a woman and feels sexually attracted to her, regardless of the circumstances and regardless of his or her marital status, that it is automatically adultery in the heart. Finding a woman sexually attractive is not inherently sinful; coveting her (if she is another man's wife or girlfriend) definitely is.

It is my belief that books such as "Every Man's Battle" are promoting asceticism and "male sexuality is dirty/sinful". I also don't care for the notion that a man shouldn't feel sexually attracted to a woman because she is "somebody's daughter". Well I would submit that the man is "somebody's son."

"Purity culture" hurts men based on how they think, and it hurts women based on how they present themselves.

$0.02

Now that is a really interesting thought. Especially today when any maleness is considered "toxic". I think men were a good deal confused when 50 Shade of Grey came to the public. I had no idea what or who all the women on my Facebook page were crowing about. I've heard men talk about it. One side of their face media is saying a man is toxic if he's male in any way, then they turn around and promote sexual abuse of women in 50 Shades. I was honestly stunned when the edited version came on tv. This was what all the women were excited about?! I watched between two commercials and gave up. I believe there are honestly too many mixed messages being sent to young men and they don't know how to handle it. I agree, there is a tendency to see male sexuality as dirty or sinful, even sexuality as a whole. It's still that one taboo within the church. The world has long since passed it and I think teens are basically flying in the wind as to how to stay pure until marriage. And then Bill Clinton opened a new door with "I did not have sex with that woman" and what sex technically is. I appreciate your POV I think there is a lot of truth to unpack about what you are saying.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Believe it or not....

Between Reddit, YouTube, and other sites the word is out.

What word is that?

Especially among men. Sure there are "dogs" who will sleep with any women they can get....but the whole "me too" thing has slowed some of that down.

Men are refusing to have anything to do with public bicycles. Where women are told that they are supposedly being empowered by having a high body count they are finding out that good, stable, men want nothing to do with "damaged goods" that have seen more male genitalia than a public toilet.

Purity matters to guys of substance!

Sure the Chad's and Tyrones say anything to jump in the sack but they never stay around to build a family with. And a lot of potentially good women have been talked into "women's empowerment " and becoming a bicycle for the men....sometimes throwing away so easily what real treasures they already had in husbands and children. They try to get them back but finding out that once the match was struck and lit....it doesn't work anymore when blown out. And trying to build a new life after deliberately destroying your previous life doesn't work either. Guys have caught on and ain't having it or anything to do with anything that smells like that.

I'm sorry, this all too clever for me. I'm a keep it simple stupid kinda guy.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Yes, I agree. It's the mother and father's responsibility. The church should be more supportive but unfortunately the church has been told politely by the family to butt out. There was a time when the church had more authority with people, but people became too smart for that. Now they dictate to the church what it can and can't do.

Totally agree on this point. It just came to me in this discussion that most of what youth are taught about sex comes from secular schools and not parents. I asked my sister if anyone was talking to her boys about sex as they were in their early teens. She said her husband was "too embarrassed" and said they wouldn't listen anyway. Now my eldest nephew had come to me with questions and said he didn't want me to tell anyone, not even his parents. I told him that I would tell him the truth no matter what he asked, and I did. That's when I asked my sister and told her he had come to me. And I thought that was odd, as close as we are, that he would come to me with these type of questions. Now I grieve and think that maybe my husband and I should have stepped in more. We live about 3 hrs apart but now I just think, maybe we could have gotten through to him and stopped him ruining his young life. I cannot bring up the subject without dissolving into tears. I feel like we all in some way let him down. And we have another nephew right on his heels, his brother, and I fear his fate if someone doesn't speak up and guide him to the right path.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

An 18 year old getting his (18 year old? ) girlfriend pregnant is actually normal. 18 year olds dont have much brains in that department to restrain themselves but its probably better to be a young mother and dad than all those 30 year old mothers and older dads going through all the drama of IVF and expense.

They'll just need to take responsibility early and you can be grandparents. congratulations.

I know one friend whos son gave her a grandaughter and hes unmarried but at least was with his girlfriend and not some random girl and they live together but its like what do you expect? Teenagers often have nothing else to do and they often cant afford to do expensive activities that dont involve sex. You leave them alone what else will they do?

It's actually my nephew. But there is an upset over keeping the child or giving it up for adoption. My sister is wanting adoption, my BIL is not and I see and understand their reasons, both are valid. A very hard decision to make. I fear my nephew will come to me and my husband for advice and one parent or the other is going to be upset. Just praying and praying for the right answer. I don't want to make things worse.

 

[JohnDB]

What word is that?



I'm sorry, this all too clever for me. I'm a keep it simple stupid kinda guy.

I'm trying to use euphemisms to stay inside of the filters and polite society.

I have no problem being crass and overly descriptive....I was a construction worker for decades. We need a locker room for me to be explicit....and this is not it.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

In some cases it might be the parents or home life, but the parents can't always be blamed.

Some are truly trying their best but the kids may just want what they want, feel stifled by the religious atmosphere, and rebel.

I grew up seeing The Pastor's Kid phenomenon, when a pastor's kid seemingly went off the rails and the parents were blamed.

In many cases, people in the congregation would call for the pastor to be fired. This creates a real doozy for a religious circle that believes in large families, a stay at home mom, and a husband who is to support the family.

Is an whole family doomed to lose their entire livelihood because one child decided to go their own way?

The strictest in the congregation always said Yes, punish these awful sinful parents who have failed, throw them to the wolves.

I disagree with this mentality but I was only a teen at the time. It made me really question the church's message of love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, and supposedly being a family.

I didn't know what those things were anymore after watching their examples.

I agree, my sister is devastated. As I talk to her I see her falling apart. I know she tried all she could but she let down her guard. She blames herself for so many reasons and I said "why tear yourself up now?" What's done is done and now its time to pray and ask for God's help. I warned my parents that we need to just pray and let God help them make this decision. No matter what I feel in my heart I think stepping in now and giving different opinions in a high stress situation will only make it all worse

 

[ResidentAlien]

I'm trying to use euphemisms to stay inside of the filters and polite society.

I have no problem being crass and overly descriptive....I was a construction worker for decades. We need a locker room for me to be explicit....and this is not it.

lol, okay. Have a nice day.

 

[HeIsHere]

I think another big elephant in the room regarding sexual purity is the ideal that ALL male sexuality is inherently "dirty" and "harmful to women".

Some of this comes from the idea of asceticism, which teaches that all physical needs/pleasures are bad and that one should always avoid such if he/she wants to remain spiritual. Some of it also comes from the (mis)use of Jesus' warning against adultery in the heart as a "hammer" or "club" on Christian men. I could go into a long explanation of what the word "lust" means in the context of Matthew 5, but the gist is that Matthew 5:28 has been interpreted by some to mean that anytime a man looks at a woman and feels sexually attracted to her, regardless of the circumstances and regardless of his or her marital status, that it is automatically adultery in the heart. Finding a woman sexually attractive is not inherently sinful; coveting her (if she is another man's wife or girlfriend) definitely is.

It is my belief that books such as "Every Man's Battle" are promoting asceticism and "male sexuality is dirty/sinful". I also don't care for the notion that a man shouldn't feel sexually attracted to a woman because she is "somebody's daughter". Well I would submit that the man is "somebody's son."

"Purity culture" hurts men based on how they think, and it hurts women based on how they present themselves.

$0.02

So do you think Jesus lusted after attractive women?

 

[JohnDB]

So do you think Jesus lusted after attractive women?

I know that I don't believe that.
I'm sure that Jesus felt desire or wants from the hormones....but His interests in other matters were much more important to him. At age 12 he was in the Temple preaching to the priests and teachers...and stayed there for three days. He definitely wasn't gonna get "lucky" hanging out in the Temple.

The story of Jesus is best characterized by His passion to save mankind from their sins. That was His passion without a doubt...and He would do just about anything to get people to understand his mission and ultimately share in that passion.
Jesus never played "footsie" with sin....like ever! He was definitely intent upon conquering it and destroying it in all forms because of the damage it does to us normal people.
And I get to live because of Jesus's victory over sin which causes death.

 

[HeIsHere]

I believe there's an old phrase for this. Something about, "It takes a village..."

Yeah, well it didn't work out too well for Chelsea.
I'll stick with a mother and father.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Hi @ThereRoseaLamb,

This is just from my own observation: the churches I've been part of try their best to teach sexual purity, but they can't really do anything absolute, or even effective, at enforcing it.

I've written about this before so I'm sorry to bore anyone, but I grew up in WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod) schools. Sex was only talked about in the context of it being God's great gift in marriage; otherwise, the message seemed to be, "Don't think about it, don't talk about it, and for goodness sake, don't ask us anything about it!" Sex education was never taught but it assumed that we all knew how sex worked, and we all needed to avoid it in all forms as much as possible.

I think that can be an issue too, that many parents make assumptions so that they don't have to come out and tackle issues that are embarrassing to them.

Hi I do have to give credit to one pastor I had who really did try to have honest conversations with us about developing healthy views about sex (talking about how couples have to go from thinking of it as COMPLETELY forbidden one day to this wholesome loving gift from God the very next day when they got married.)

However, it didn't stop young people from finding a way. I can think of about half a dozen teen pregnancies that occurred during my time in Lutheran schools (and I'm sure there were others I just didn't know about.) But you'd never find a pregnant girl walking through our school, as they were forbidden to come back, which was something I always found to be rather at odds with the message of love and forgiveness

One couple got caught passing notes of their planned and apparently very graphic adventures for the weekend, which the teachers then used as another chance to enforce the spoken "NO NO NO" policy.

Another couple got caught because they had skipped school -- in order to have an abortion. As punishment, they had to write a letter of apology to the staff, student body, and were not allowed to walk at graduation. The others I'm trying to remember simply disappeared to other programs, such as night school or GED's. Some got pregnant after school had ended.
[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=5]Yes, I recall one young girl a little older than me got pregnant in my church circle. There were a lot of nasty rumors about her but all very hush hush. She gave the baby up for adoption, which spawned more rumors. I believe she is married now, not sure if she has children. [/SIZE]



[QUOTE="seoulsearch, post: 5107072, member: 20130"]Hi [USER=320927]
And some of these were the kids of pastors and prominent teachers in the churches and school. I remember one pastor saying that his "daughters knew he saw everything" as a way to proclaim that he made sure the rules were kept (I'm not sure if he thought differently about his sons, as I remember him specifically saying 'daughter' in this incidence) but one of his daughters still got pregnant. I have also noticed, in the churches I've been in, that a much harsher judgment has been given to the girl who gets pregnant rather than the father of her child.
[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=5]Reminds me my father always told us " You will always get a bad name, it's not fair or right, but the guy can walk away every time but you will still be labeled as a bad person".[/SIZE]



[QUOTE="seoulsearch, post: 5107072, member: 20130"]Hi [USER=320927]
I've also noticed that sexual purity/sin is always aimed at what seems to be the thought of, "those rebellious uncontrollable young people" and/or singles. It's usually assumed (at least in the circles I've been exposed to) that single people are always out every weekend perusing bars and hookups (pardon me while I roll my eyes at blanket stereotypes.)

The funny thing is, sexual purity is often seen as a "young people's problem" that must be religiously beaten into submission, when I have to wonder how much of this "scourge" is spreading to the older populations.

I was part of a church a few years ago in which the 50-ish pastor said that one of his biggest challenges was older people who are divorced or widowed, because they tell him, "Yeah, I can see the point of that abstinence stuff for teenagers, but I'm a grown adult and things are different for me." They no longer saw sexual purity as having any application to them, and followed their whims as they wished, especially now that there was no worry of kids walking in on them, and if the woman had gone through menopause, no reason to fear they might get pregnant.
[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=5]When my mothers sister passed away from cancer several years later my uncle was getting remarried. His wife to be had some kind of surgery before they were to be married and she needed someone to care for her. Instead of asking her family for help they moved in together. I recall my parents being upset thinking it set a bad example for us teens.[/SIZE]


[QUOTE="seoulsearch, post: 5107072, member: 20130"]Hi [USER=320927]I certainly don't have any answers for either side of the fence but the bottom line seems to be that people are going to do what they are determined to do, and at any age. If the church CAN get people to follow purity guidelines more effectively, I don't know what they could do besides locking everyone up in gender-segregated camps (and even then, that probably wouldn't work out.) I remember learning about a troubled youth program in college in which it was said that they couldn't house 17-year-olds with, say, 8-year-olds, or the older boys would start to victimize the younger ones.

I have to wonder if one of the reasons the church has a hard time selling purity, and can only resort to fear-based tactics ("you'll go to hell!") is because so many of us know many people who followed all the rules, did all the right things, and yet things have turned out horribly for them. Two of the girls in my high school at the time I was there outwardly did "all the right things" and it resulted in abusive spouses taking their lives. In each case, the girls were shot to death by their husbands -- one in front of her 3 children, as the oldest, about 11 at the time, was trying frantically to call 911.

I didn't know them personally except to perhaps say hi (one sat behind me in study hall; the other was the most popular girl in school who went on to become one of the most successful and well-known people in the community,) but it seemed that they doing what they were told, and this was their "reward."

I think this is another reason why the church has a hard time enforcing rules on how people are to refrain from what seems like their strongest desires. It might not be as extreme as the stories I mentioned above, but we all know people who have tried their best to live Godly lives and yet find themselves in unhappy, sometimes terrible or tragic situations.

I think the thought then becomes a literally case of, "I'm doomed if I do, and I'm doomed if I don't," and so it becomes a matter of which path seems most appealing or will bring at least some kind of gratification, since the person feels they will be punished either way.

In many ways, I'm glad I never became a parent, because I don't know if I would have been able to guide young people through these ever-increasing challenges.

(Sorry, I forgot to include that my age range is a long, long way from high school :), and yes, I was married before, but he left for someone else.)[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=5]Yes. I think we all know stories that turned out that way. Not excusing what my nephew did but he's a "healer" type personality. He would bring friends home that had bad circumstances, one young guy was pretty much living at my sisters. He always wants to protect people against what he sees as injustice. The young woman he has dated 6 mons has come from a very bad background, no father and the mother is a user doing whatever she can and sleeping with whoever she can to get by. The first time we met her my nephew was flying around her like a little humming bird, making sure he was 10 steps ahead of her in case she needed anything. My younger nephew said that she is often sick which seems more of a mental than actually physical. I think he felt like this was the ultimate way he could make her safe from her family. [/SIZE]

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

So do you think Jesus lusted after attractive women?

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

As was said, Jesus came with a mission and procreation wasn't one of them. That being said He was tempted. I think it all lies in the word "lust" and what we consider that to mean.

 

[HeIsHere]

I know that I don't believe that.
I'm sure that Jesus felt desire or wants from the hormones....but His interests in other matters were much more important to him. At age 12 he was in the Temple preaching to the priests and teachers...and stayed there for three days. He definitely wasn't gonna get "lucky" hanging out in the Temple.

The story of Jesus is best characterized by His passion to save mankind from their sins. That was His passion without a doubt...and He would do just about anything to get people to understand his mission and ultimately share in that passion.
Jesus never played "footsie" with sin....like ever! He was definitely intent upon conquering it and destroying it in all forms because of the damage it does to us normal people.
And I get to live because of Jesus's victory over sin which causes death.

So then you would agree Jesus is the standard?

 

[ResidentAlien]

No, Jesus didn't lust after women. He said a man who looks upon a woman with lust commits adultery with her in his heart. Jesus was without sin so He didn't commit adultery in His heart.

 

[HeIsHere]

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

As was said, Jesus came with a mission and procreation wasn't one of them. That being said He was tempted. I think it all lies in the word "lust" and what we consider that to mean.

Yeah, that verse has been so misused as though Jesus was fighting off sin left and right.

Jesus was tested, not tempted.