Hebrews 6

[PennEd]

You must endure,

Sounds like YOUR works.
Is Jesus futile in His ability to keep you saved?
That's in essence what you are saying.

JUDE
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

1 CORINTHIANS 1
4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, 5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
FAQ: What percentage of Jesus' sheep would you suppose he expects to
lose?

REPLY: The good shepherd doesn't have any lost sheep. What do you take
him for: a run of the mill cowboy? All those that God entrusted to His son's
care are safe and sound.

● John 10:9 . . I am the gate; whoever enters through me shall be saved.

Were Christ a common ranch hand; then he wouldn't dare say "shall be"
saved; no, he'd have to tone it down a bit and say "can be" saved. That
would leave him some room for error. But when Christ says "shall be" he's
claiming a 0.0% failure rate.

FAQ: Why can't the sheep up and run away of their own free will?

REPLY: Well; they wouldn't get very far because the Father's free will trumps
the sheep's free will.

● John 6:39 . .This is the will of the one who sent me; that I should not lose
anything of what He gave me.

So then, were Christ to lose even one of the sheep, he would disappoint the
one who sent him. But Christ never fails to satisfy his Father's expectations.

● John 14:31 . . That the world may know that I love the Father, and as the
Father gave me commandment, even so I do.

● John 8:29 . .The one who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone,
because I always do what is pleasing to Him.

Were Christ to lose even one of the sheep in his care, he wouldn't be able to
say that he "always" does what is pleasing to God. He might claim some of
the time, or even most of the time, but never all the time.

When people say that it's possible for Jesus to lose sheep; they are actually
casting a vote of no-confidence in his Father's approval rating.

● Matt 3:16-17 . . As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the
water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God
descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said;
"This is My son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
_

 

[BreatheFocusBet]

The KJV states it differently:

[Heb 3:12 KJV] 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Hebrews 3:14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first.

what assurance did the unsaved have at first?

After being edified, those saved, already indwelt by the Holy Spirit, would never depart from the living God (Christ) -

Then if these people, who had

Hebrews 3:14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first.

And were
Hebrews 3:1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus


were saved, it was unnecessary to warn them
Hebrews 3:12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Only those without the Holy Spirit, those with a heart of unbelief, depart from Christ.

In what way are those without the Holy Spirit with Christ to be able to depart from Him

God gives belief as a gift to those whom He saves.

Fair enough, and yet
Hebrews 3:14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first.


is there no difference between that and this non scripture?

We have come to share in Christ as we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first.



if so, what is the difference

The sum of which is that those who are not saved, by nature, sin in ways that dishonor
Christ as God, husband and Saviour. Those who have the Holy Spirit "are Christ's and have crucified the flesh with the
affections and lusts" and thereby they do not commit spiritual acts of the flesh.

Better yet

it can be both true that to become alive with Christ, believers must crucify the flesh, and at some later point believers can begin to, for example

Galatians 5: 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying one another.

Hence that and this

21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

"you" there are these people

Galatians 4:6And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”

 

[Inquisitor]

always by course, you must maintain belief, faith, trust your whole life. i said you can backslide, a drawing away from Jesus, but your heart, mind, soul, conscious & spirit are still "adopted' in the family of God. but you can not draw away so much where you become an atheist. the books of John & 1st John & Romans teach you can TOTALLY KNOW the you are saved for all eternity. if there's not a way to know then why become a believer & born again at all? if we remain in disagreement, let's remain with respect for each other. blessings to you Inquisitor.

Thanks for your reply.

We must endure through many trials and maintain that faith, that trust in Jesus, agreement.

Where I would disagree would be with this statement of your.

"but you can not draw away so much where you become an atheist"

I disagree, there are a number of ways of falling away from that faith, that trust, in Jesus.

Here is one way below.

Galatians 5:2-4
Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who has himself circumcised, that he is obligated to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace.

Paul is talking to the Christians in Galatia. The Christians in Galatia were starting to follow the law. Paul said that they would be severed from Christ.

"but you can not draw away so much where you become an atheist"

What you said is not true. Anyone can fall from grace, if they are stupid enough to ignore the instructions given to them.

 

[Inquisitor]

No, He said "he that endures to the end". He does not address HOW they endure to the end - enduring to the end is result, not cause. The cause is only by God being within them so that they do endure. It is God's work, not man's.

So your telling me, that we can ignore the instructions given to us by the apostles.

It is God's work in us, not our own endurance in the faith that matters.

We can play with sin, avoid prayer, never read the scripture. Because it is God's work in us from start to finish.

Yippee, the gospel of live anyway you want too. As it's only God's work in you that matters, in the end.

There are far too many warnings in the New Testament, about poor behavior in the Christian life. To justify your interpretation of the scripture.

I believe that we can only be saved by that faith in Jesus Christ.

Yet, we must follow the good Shepperd, we must listen to His call, we must respond in love (ENDURANCE).

Always saved by the grace of God through Christ alone, but.

It is really about that relationship we have via the Holy Spirit with Jesus.

By grace we are saved through faith...(The real Christian life is the life lived in Jesus Christ, walk the walk)

 

[rogerg]

Hebrews 3:14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first.

what assurance did the unsaved have at first?

I don't understand your question. The unsaved are given assurances at a point in time when/if they become saved/born again. However, for those who remain unsaved until the end, no assurances are applicable to them.

Then if these people, who had

Hebrews 3:14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first.

And were
Hebrews 3:1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus


were saved, it was unnecessary to warn them
Hebrews 3:12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Edification for the saved; a published warning to the unsaved. However, the question you should have asked is: did any of the saved depart from the living God? The answer: no.

In what way are those without the Holy Spirit with Christ to be able to depart from Him

Again, I don't understand your question. For those without the Holy Spirit, neither do they have Christ - the two go together.
The unsaved eventually choose to depart from the true Christians because they are not of the saved and therefore do not truly believe in Christ.

Fair enough, and yet
Hebrews 3:14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first.


is there no difference between that and this non scripture?

We have come to share in Christ as we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first.

The KJV 3:14 seems to state it a little differently than yours.

[Heb 3:14 KJV] 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Said another way, since the "are made" was a completed action, and should we be of those who actually do hold the beginning of our confidence until the end, we can know that it is only from having been "made partakers".
And that being a function of having (been given) true faith. Those to whom it is not given, will not/cannot remain so unto the end but shall fall away. I think the below verse makes very clear that it is God's power, through faith, by which He keeps those to whom the inheritance was intended/bequeathed, to remain in true faith and confidence until the end.

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

The difference I think between the "if" and the "as" as I see it, is that for the "if" to be satisfied it must await the end; however, the "as" can be transient and terminate at any point with no guarantee of lasting until the end.

Better yet

it can be both true that to become alive with Christ, believers must crucify the flesh, and at some later point believers can begin to, for example

Galatians 5: 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying one another.

Hence that and this

21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

"you" there are these people

Galatians 4:6And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”

IMHO, there is nothing within a man's power that will bring to him salvation: it must come as a gift unsolicited from God through His grace and mercy, or not at all. Now, don't misunderstand me, I am not suggesting that it is ok to do those things which are not glorifying or pleasing to God, but neither does one's salvation dependent upon it. Why? Because salvation is solely and completely by Christ, not us. However, once God saves someone, He will direct them away from those things, and sometimes do so in the most unpleasant of ways until they get it. For an example, look at King David.

To be of the "sons" is in being God's spiritual son, meaning God had already saved and adopted them, the result of which, brings them to cry out to God "Abba Father".

 

[Inquisitor]

That is a totally separate issue. Firstly you must address the meaning of being born again.

Being born again simply means you are saved by the grace of God.

Is it possible to fall from that grace?

You bet it's possible, that is why half the New Testament is a warning.

Don't just talk the talk, walk the walk!

 

[Inquisitor]

Sounds like YOUR works.
Is Jesus futile in His ability to keep you saved?
That's in essence what you are saying.

JUDE
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

1 CORINTHIANS 1
4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, 5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

That is not the essence of what I am saying.

You have been told how you are to behave as a Christian, to be conformed to the image of Christ.

To summarize the New Testament.

We are saved purely by the grace of God.

Yet, we are sternly warned about the love of money, love of the world, unforgiveness, etc.

The Grace of God and your Christian walk in full obedience. The Christian life lived is bearing the fruit. Enduring the trials.

Calling continuously on the name of Jesus.

Living your entire Christian life with the cross hairs on Jesus. That is the pattern, the tradition, the instruction, we have received. Do these things and you will never fall from grace.

Go ahead and live the Christian life anyway you choose. You would be a very foolish person to ignore the warnings, given by Jesus and the apostles.

 

[SteveSmith]

My interpretation is to believe what it says ,and not allow people I explain why it's not valid or for christians it doesn't need to be erased so we can feel comfortable sinning it needs to be accepted so we will repent

This doesn't need to be interpreted it's just a true fact


For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:26‭-‬27 KJV

So then hypergrace has to say " that's only for a Hebrew , it doesn't apply" or hypergrace has no answer to the plain statement that doesn't need to be interpreted it is the right interpretation itself

God doesn't treat Hebrews any different now than gentiles. Same doctrine is it anyone hat believes I don't reject it , others explain why it's not true or relevant if the wrong interpretation is to accept gods word I'll never make it but it's not it's the right thing

 

[SteveSmith]

I suppose I don’t see how anyone doesn’t lose their salvation then. No one here can truthfully say they have not sinned at all, even once, since their salvation.

 

[rogerg]

So your telling me, that we can ignore the instructions given to us by the apostles.

Only those born again can take the Bible to heart. The unsaved neither understand nor follow its true meaning.

It is God's work in us, not our own endurance in the faith that matters.

We can play with sin, avoid prayer, never read the scripture. Because it is God's work in us from start to finish.

Do you think doing the above saves someone?
You are trying to earn salvation or to make yourself worthy of it. No one is saved by doing that. It makes salvation into our work which can only be unsuccessful.
For an example, look at Saul/Paul. It is the same for everyone else. God saves those, and only those, whom He had chosen to save. No one can earn it.
There is nothing in man's power to bring it to themselves. It is Christ alone who justifies. That is why Christ has the title of Saviour and man does not. I am not saying that it is okay to do things that are not God glorifying, but neither will that affect one's salvation.

There are far too many warnings in the New Testament, about poor behavior in the Christian life. To justify your interpretation of the scripture.

I believe that we can only be saved by that faith in Jesus Christ.

Well, that's your opinion but if Christ is the Saviour as we have been told that He is, then He must be the one who does the saving, right? And He must do so fully and completely, with no contribution whatsoever from man. Or He simply cannot be the Saviour. How could it be otherwise? Do you believe that Christ is the Saviour, or not?

Those saved are saved by the faith OF Christ (that is, by Christ's faith), from which, we, as a gift, are given a faith IN Christ: God's work, not ours.

Yet, we must follow the good Shepperd, we must listen to His call, we must respond in love (ENDURANCE).

Always saved by the grace of God through Christ alone, but.

It is really about that relationship we have via the Holy Spirit with Jesus.

By grace we are saved through faith...(The real Christian life is the life lived in Jesus Christ, walk the walk)

We follow the good Shepperd only if/when we become saved and given ears that can hear. Our actions cannot save us.
The unsaved cannot comprehend the true gospel, because natural man does not have spiritual discernment -
none of the unsaved do.

Observe:
[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I suppose I don’t see how anyone doesn’t lose their salvation then. No one here can truthfully say they have not sinned at all, even once, since their salvation.

that’s not what it says ots talking about “ willful sin “ rebellion that he keeps correcting you on and we keep refusing to give it up . Willful rebellion is different from a Christian making mistakes Jesus doctrine teaches us imperfect people how to abide in his love even when we’ve made mistakes or are struggling with something that has a hold on us still

He’s not come for perfect people there are none he’s come to call us sinners who don’t pretend we haven’t sinned to repentence and remission of sins as of we have never sinned at all we just have to be willing to start repenting when he convinces us of things enough he works on each of us through our whole life brother I’m 70 and still as far from perfect as anyone else but I’ve also overcome alot of bad behaviors in life through accepting that im actually commanded by God to change my sin to righteousness give it all I’ve got but for my shortcomings that’s what grace is for

Grace and his patience sustained me through my worst times through war and violence and drunkenness , through so many mistakes I can’t recall anymore but still he’s never gone anywhere I’m not saying that at all I’m saying we’re Jesus disciples somoirnoalce is just to really stick with him and continue learning and growing and applying his word If we follow him salvstion is assured but we’re never going to be perfect and sinless we have doctrine for when we make mistakes we have to repent and confess and then rein back to him he is faithful and will always forgive us of our heart is true and we aren’t going through motions

when Jesus says this

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He’s talking about being merciful because we aren’t perfect and we’ve all done sin things wrong thisnis the contemporary context to that verse

“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:35-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Imperfect people need to have the notion to never sin but when we fail and we do , we then need to hear the gospel about forgiving others , not judging others , not condemning others because Jesus the lord tells us of we are merciful like God was to us forgiving people at judgement we’re going to receive the same form of judgement

The gospel isn’t the law of Moses Jesus knows we’re flawed so he gave us a doctrine that redeems us from evil and teaches us how to live upright good decent lives even if we make mistakes , tha the kit the same as willful sin , that occurs when we learn the truth and just simply keep rejecting it and making excuses to sin that’s our Will to sin showing

 

[Webers.Home]

.
● Luke 2:8-12 . . Now there were shepherds in that region living in the fields
and keeping the night watch over their flock. The angel of The Lord
appeared to them, and the glory of The Lord shone around them, and they
were struck with great fear.

. . .The angel said to them: Do not be afraid; for behold, I proclaim to you
good news of great joy that will be for all the people. For today in the city of
David a savior has been born for you who is Messiah and Lord.

The angel announced the birth of a savior. Webster's defines a "savior" as
one who rescues.

Rescuing is what the Coast Guard does when boats capsize. Rescuing is what
Firemen do when people are trapped inside burning buildings. Rescuing is
what mountaineer teams do when climbers are in trouble. Rescuing is what
EMT paramedics do when someone needs to get to a hospital in a hurry; and
kept alive till they arrive. Rescuing is what surgeons do when someone
needs an organ transplant.

I could go on and on giving example of rescuer after rescuer; but I think we
get the idea. The New Testament's Jesus is like that: he rescues people from
the wrath of God-- people who not only fully deserve it, but definitely in line
to get it; and with no humanly possible way to avoid it.

Now; of what real benefit would the savior of Luke 2:8-12 really be to
anybody if he couldn't guarantee a fail-safe rescue from the wrath of God?
He'd be of no benefit to anybody. No; he'd be an incompetent ninny that
nobody could rely on.

But, if a savior were to be announced who guaranteed anybody who wants
it a completely free of charge, no strings attached, guaranteed fail-safe, sin
proof, human nature-proof, Ten Commandments-proof, bad behavior-proof,
apostasy-proof, reprobate-proof, back-sliding proof, Sermon on the Mount
proof, God-proof, Devil-proof, irrevocable rescue from the wrath of God, and
full-time protection from future retribution; wouldn't that qualify as good
news of great joy?

I think just about everybody concerned about ending up on the wrong side
of things would have to agree with me that news like that would not only
most certainly be good; but also cause for celebration, and ecstatic
happiness.
_

 

[Karlon]

Thanks for your reply.

We must endure through many trials and maintain that faith, that trust in Jesus, agreement.

Where I would disagree would be with this statement of your.

"but you can not draw away so much where you become an atheist"

I disagree, there are a number of ways of falling away from that faith, that trust, in Jesus.

Here is one way below.

Galatians 5:2-4
Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who has himself circumcised, that he is obligated to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace.

Paul is talking to the Christians in Galatia. The Christians in Galatia were starting to follow the law. Paul said that they would be severed from Christ.

"but you can not draw away so much where you become an atheist"

What you said is not true. Anyone can fall from grace, if they are stupid enough to ignore the instructions given to them.

falling from grace is not losing your salvation or becoming an atheist. so if you believe you can be born again & then become an atheist that means there's no sure way to know your saved & that's not what God teaches. i believe you are incorrect. if we end up in disagreement twas' nice chatting with you. let's hope for an agreement on the next subject.

 

[Inquisitor]

falling from grace is not losing your salvation or becoming an atheist. so if you believe you can be born again & then become an atheist that means there's no sure way to know your saved & that's not what God teaches. i believe you are incorrect. if we end up in disagreement twas' nice chatting with you. let's hope for an agreement on the next subject.

You have been taught an interpretation of the scripture, an understanding that is not valid.

Paul said, 'You have been severed from Christ', which means what it says.

The Galatians were disobeying the revelation of Jesus and were now attempting, to gain their own righteousness.

If the Galatians continued to seek to obey the law, then they will fall from grace.

There is no debate. Severed from Christ can and does happen.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

falling from grace is not losing your salvation or becoming an atheist. so if you believe you can be born again & then become an atheist that means there's no sure way to know your saved & that's not what God teaches.

Correct; Corroborating Scriptures:

God's OPERATION On all HIS New-born babes In Christ!

God's Eternal Assurance!

God's Eternal Life Insurance!

Thus, "fallen from Grace" would be interpreted to be "out of fellowship" with Christ,
not "out of God's Eternal Relationship" With us * "members of His Body, members of
His Flesh and Bones" = Scripture does not Teach an "incomplete Body!"

Amen.

* Differences of Relationship vs fellowship

 

[Karlon]

You have been taught an interpretation of the scripture, an understanding that is not valid.

Paul said, 'You have been severed from Christ', which means what it says.

The Galatians were disobeying the revelation of Jesus and were now attempting, to gain their own righteousness.

If the Galatians continued to seek to obey the law, then they will fall from grace.

There is no debate. Severed from Christ can and does happen.

so in finality, you believe you can be saved & lose your salvation?

 

[Cameron143]

Nothing can separate us from the love of God IN CHRIST Jesus our Lord.

 

[Inquisitor]

so in finality, you believe you can be saved & lose your salvation?

It is not about what I believe. It is what the apostles told us.

If the Galatians continued to seek to obey the law, then they will fall from grace.

There is no debate. Severed from Christ can and does happen.

Half the New Testament is about staying saved.

Walk with Jesus or wander off, it's your choice.

 

[Inquisitor]

Nothing can separate us from the love of God IN CHRIST Jesus our Lord.

Amen Brother.

You can though walk away from Jesus, if you choose too.

God does not and will not stop someone, from deciding to abandon their faith. This is happening all over the world and it's increasing.