Hebrews 6
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So then he was not warning his
Hebrews 3
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God.
to
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God.
And what, then, did he mean by "turn away" if only those who are unsaved will do it? In what way are the unsaved hearts "turned toward" God for them to be able to "turn away"?
And is there no difference between that verse and this non-verse
don't see to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God.
If so then what is the difference and how does that reconcile with them being immune from the concept of them turning away?
No, but that he
Galatians 2
11When Cephas came to Antioch, however, I opposed him to his face, because he stood to be condemned.
which even if he didn't mean losing "his salvation" (as you seem to agree it means based on your unprompted use of those words), it would be because Peter was in sinful behavior and had the Holy Spirit.
To that larger point, here Paul warns the Galatians believers who also had the Holy Spirit
Galatians 5
19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
= we can choose to "practice such things"
Hebrews 3
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God.
to
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God.
And what, then, did he mean by "turn away" if only those who are unsaved will do it? In what way are the unsaved hearts "turned toward" God for them to be able to "turn away"?
And is there no difference between that verse and this non-verse
don't see to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God.
If so then what is the difference and how does that reconcile with them being immune from the concept of them turning away?
No, but that he
Galatians 2
11When Cephas came to Antioch, however, I opposed him to his face, because he stood to be condemned.
which even if he didn't mean losing "his salvation" (as you seem to agree it means based on your unprompted use of those words), it would be because Peter was in sinful behavior and had the Holy Spirit.
To that larger point, here Paul warns the Galatians believers who also had the Holy Spirit
Galatians 5
19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
= we can choose to "practice such things"
If you are backing up what you said by Hebrews 6:4-6 then that is not what it means. Satan and his angels left by their own volition. See they knew God in all His power and glory yet freely left. We really need to think about this...who knows GOD like that? Is it the Baptist, Word of Faith no the SDA maybe Mormons, Catholics, Jw? Then just part of that verse 95% do not fully grasp understand "the powers of the age to come". These are they that know that they know that they know and never fully surrendered. Most are blind..
I think boastfully at times in my life for what I have been so blessed to see hear...yet He will do something new and I am left with.. wow I thought I knew Him but.. 62 I still don't know Him. Its like a dam and you want all that water so He looks at you smiles and with this TINY pin pokes a hole....what? That's it? I NEED IT ALL! haha
So have you sat at the table and seen everything before your eyes and just tasted got up and walked off? We think anyone that knows Jesus and life happens or they give up walk away or some sin they fall in to can't get out....that's it there gone.. never loved Jesus I guess. I would wonder the one saying that...do they know Christ? its now what we see on the out side its the heart God sees (Samuel)
I think boastfully at times in my life for what I have been so blessed to see hear...yet He will do something new and I am left with.. wow I thought I knew Him but.. 62 I still don't know Him. Its like a dam and you want all that water so He looks at you smiles and with this TINY pin pokes a hole....what? That's it? I NEED IT ALL! haha
So have you sat at the table and seen everything before your eyes and just tasted got up and walked off? We think anyone that knows Jesus and life happens or they give up walk away or some sin they fall in to can't get out....that's it there gone.. never loved Jesus I guess. I would wonder the one saying that...do they know Christ? its now what we see on the out side its the heart God sees (Samuel)
Have you read what Jesus said about this? Would you believe Him if you read it, or believe what man teaches in his theological ideologies?
MATTHEW 24:13 KJV "But he that shall endure unto the …
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-24-13
WebMatthew 24:13 Context. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that …
MATTHEW 24:13 KJV "But he that shall endure unto the …
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-24-13
WebMatthew 24:13 Context. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that …
Yes brother , God created man in his grace to simply walk by faith and have a relationship with him if you look at genesis chapter 1 you see what I mean man doesn’t exist God makes a beautiful creation teaming with life , then lastly he says this note how man has done nothing to earn his position in Gods kingdom but From Gods own Will expressed by his word man man is created for a purpose in his design
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
Genesis 1:26-28, 31 KJV
man’s real place in Gods Will is there they’ve done nothing but are given everything because God is good and gracious towards man who he created and loves as his own man is created in grace.
But man is made to walk by faith trusting Gods word
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17
So Gods Will puts Adam here
“And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat
God gave Adam dominion and the trees bearing fruit already all of earth but now he tells him a truth that will keep him safe )
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 2:8-9, 15-17 KJV
its still grace but now if Adam has faith based on what God told him all
He told him the many blessings of life and domino and fellowship with God and also the warning of the curse, Adam will live
but if Adam rejects Gods word about sin and death he will surely die , and it’s not Gods grace failing Adam it is Adam failing to believe Gods warning about the fruit Adam broke faith with God despite God giving him and creating him in grace for faith
faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
This is true from Adam to us, Gods grace has always been for man even when man has become vile and provoked his wrath
“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.”
Genesis 6:5-8 KJV
noah also was saved because God is gracious towards man even in times of wrath , but if Noah wasn’t willing to listen to gods warning he then speaks to him to save him and believe it and operate by it , Noah’s faith would also have proven failed and he wouldn’t have had an ark to enter into .
Grace is surely sufficient through faith but remember that quote has a context paul was asking God to remove the thorn of his eye issues that hindered his ministry and God told him my grace is sufficient your ministry will succeed “
it’s not used to say “ I’ll save people even if they don’t hear and believe my warnings about sin and death he gives us grace and then teaches us the truth
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
Genesis 1:26-28, 31 KJV
man’s real place in Gods Will is there they’ve done nothing but are given everything because God is good and gracious towards man who he created and loves as his own man is created in grace.
But man is made to walk by faith trusting Gods word
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17
So Gods Will puts Adam here
“And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat
God gave Adam dominion and the trees bearing fruit already all of earth but now he tells him a truth that will keep him safe ) but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 2:8-9, 15-17 KJV
its still grace but now if Adam has faith based on what God told him all
He told him the many blessings of life and domino and fellowship with God and also the warning of the curse, Adam will live
but if Adam rejects Gods word about sin and death he will surely die , and it’s not Gods grace failing Adam it is Adam failing to believe Gods warning about the fruit Adam broke faith with God despite God giving him and creating him in grace for faith
faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
This is true from Adam to us, Gods grace has always been for man even when man has become vile and provoked his wrath
“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.”
Genesis 6:5-8 KJV
noah also was saved because God is gracious towards man even in times of wrath , but if Noah wasn’t willing to listen to gods warning he then speaks to him to save him and believe it and operate by it , Noah’s faith would also have proven failed and he wouldn’t have had an ark to enter into .
Grace is surely sufficient through faith but remember that quote has a context paul was asking God to remove the thorn of his eye issues that hindered his ministry and God told him my grace is sufficient your ministry will succeed “
it’s not used to say “ I’ll save people even if they don’t hear and believe my warnings about sin and death he gives us grace and then teaches us the truth
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It’s always good to read the wisdom you share, dear brother. Please understand I know when Paul spoke of God’s grace being sufficient it was pertaining to his ailment. However, I look at the big picture, and that is that the entire Bible is a message of life, love and the fact that God’s grace is always sufficient.
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Problems with this?:
1) Denies The Scriptural Fact that God Is The New Owner of the believer!:
would have to be done (without God's Permission) in order to prevent
Confusing contradictions. There are More Than 12-Dozen!!:
God's OPERATION On all HIS New-born babes In Christ!
God's Eternal Assurance!
God's Eternal Life Insurance!
3) Finally, worst of all, that would Deny Christ's ALL-Sufficient Work On The Cross!
Conclusion, those "who can leave of their own volition" never Belonged to The
New Owner, nor do they have all sins forgiven By The Precious BLOOD Of The
Wonderful Saviour For God's Free Gift Of Eternal Life!!!!
Amen.
1) Denies The Scriptural Fact that God Is The New Owner of the believer!:
1Co 6:19 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy
Ghost Which Is In you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"
2) Next worse is (mis)interpretation of the Majority (of) Plain and Clear Passageswould have to be done (without God's Permission) in order to prevent
Confusing contradictions. There are More Than 12-Dozen!!:
God's OPERATION On all HIS New-born babes In Christ!
God's Eternal Assurance!
God's Eternal Life Insurance!
3) Finally, worst of all, that would Deny Christ's ALL-Sufficient Work On The Cross!
Conclusion, those "who can leave of their own volition" never Belonged to The
New Owner, nor do they have all sins forgiven By The Precious BLOOD Of The
Wonderful Saviour For God's Free Gift Of Eternal Life!!!!
Amen.
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The KJV states it differently:
[Heb 3:12 KJV] 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Edification can include warning. That it does, doesn't make it any less edifying but fully completes the knowledge of the doctrine.
After being edified, those saved, already indwelt by the Holy Spirit, would never depart from the living God (Christ) - not of themselves but of God moving within them, giving to them belief, and to do of His good pleasure that makes it so. Those who do depart, do so because they have not the Holy Spirit and God is not moving from within them. Only those without the Holy Spirit, those with a heart of unbelief, depart from Christ. God gives belief as a gift to those whom He saves.
It is the same as with these verses:
[Jhn 6:66 KJV] 66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
[Jhn 12:37 KJV] 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
I wasn't saying that Peter could lose his salvation I was asking for clarification as to whether that's what you believed because it seemed to be what you were implying.
Edification can include warning. That it does, doesn't make it any less edifying but fully completes the knowledge of the doctrine.
Paul was edifying the Galatians and making known to them Christian doctrine - objectively stating spiritual fact, not applying it to individuals.
The warnings of Paul in the above verse have spiritual equivalent. It is on the spiritual level, not the physical level, by which the actions of the unsaved will be assessed by God. The sum of which is that those who are not saved, by nature, sin in ways that dishonor
Christ as God, husband and Saviour. Those who have the Holy Spirit "are Christ's and have crucified the flesh with the
affections and lusts" and thereby they do not commit spiritual acts of the flesh.
[Gal 5:24 KJV] 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
[Heb 10:29 KJV] 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
[Heb 3:12 KJV] 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Edification can include warning. That it does, doesn't make it any less edifying but fully completes the knowledge of the doctrine.
After being edified, those saved, already indwelt by the Holy Spirit, would never depart from the living God (Christ) - not of themselves but of God moving within them, giving to them belief, and to do of His good pleasure that makes it so. Those who do depart, do so because they have not the Holy Spirit and God is not moving from within them. Only those without the Holy Spirit, those with a heart of unbelief, depart from Christ. God gives belief as a gift to those whom He saves.
It is the same as with these verses:
[Jhn 6:66 KJV] 66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
[Jhn 12:37 KJV] 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
I wasn't saying that Peter could lose his salvation I was asking for clarification as to whether that's what you believed because it seemed to be what you were implying.
Edification can include warning. That it does, doesn't make it any less edifying but fully completes the knowledge of the doctrine.
Paul was edifying the Galatians and making known to them Christian doctrine - objectively stating spiritual fact, not applying it to individuals.
The warnings of Paul in the above verse have spiritual equivalent. It is on the spiritual level, not the physical level, by which the actions of the unsaved will be assessed by God. The sum of which is that those who are not saved, by nature, sin in ways that dishonor
Christ as God, husband and Saviour. Those who have the Holy Spirit "are Christ's and have crucified the flesh with the
affections and lusts" and thereby they do not commit spiritual acts of the flesh.
[Gal 5:24 KJV] 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
[Heb 10:29 KJV] 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
“entire Bible is a message of life, love and the fact that God’s grace is always sufficient.”
What do you mean by the term “Gods grace ?” Can you elaborate ?
Id say we’re saved ( by) grace through faith so the only case it’s not sufficient is if we have no faith because we reject Gods word of life and truth
as long as we don’t use it to erase all of the rest of the many things he teaches man about sin and death righteousness and sin good and evil and the result of those things faith , Hope love , salvation and damnation but mostly
i see a message from Jesus Christ the lord in heaven and about the person of Jesus Christ who came to earth and then returned to heaven to his glory in the big picture of the Bible .
One that says if we hear and believe the gospel we’re going to come to know him in truth and live forever but if we reject the gospel we’re going to be damned . But yes gods grace is where it all began and is sustained
instead of just life and grace and love
I see a lot of what will happen if we don’t repent and start doing right by Jesus words too so it’s grace and also truth. And that includes a lot of warnings stern and clear ones meant to be believed and move us to action and faith
Grace is the source I would agree there for sure just like it was the source in Eden but grace didn’t change faith and it’s consequence when they sinned
What do you mean by the term “Gods grace ?” Can you elaborate ?
Id say we’re saved ( by) grace through faith so the only case it’s not sufficient is if we have no faith because we reject Gods word of life and truth
as long as we don’t use it to erase all of the rest of the many things he teaches man about sin and death righteousness and sin good and evil and the result of those things faith , Hope love , salvation and damnation but mostly
i see a message from Jesus Christ the lord in heaven and about the person of Jesus Christ who came to earth and then returned to heaven to his glory in the big picture of the Bible .
One that says if we hear and believe the gospel we’re going to come to know him in truth and live forever but if we reject the gospel we’re going to be damned . But yes gods grace is where it all began and is sustained
instead of just life and grace and love
I see a lot of what will happen if we don’t repent and start doing right by Jesus words too so it’s grace and also truth. And that includes a lot of warnings stern and clear ones meant to be believed and move us to action and faith
Grace is the source I would agree there for sure just like it was the source in Eden but grace didn’t change faith and it’s consequence when they sinned
I am afraid that you are incorrect.
One must maintain their faith, trust, belief, in Jesus from start to finish.
I have seen people over the course of many years, get caught up in the world. Wander from the faith and fall away.
That is a fact. Did they believe in the Lord in the first place? Of course they did, some for many years, raised in Christian families.
One must maintain their faith, trust, belief, in Jesus from start to finish.
I have seen people over the course of many years, get caught up in the world. Wander from the faith and fall away.
That is a fact. Did they believe in the Lord in the first place? Of course they did, some for many years, raised in Christian families.
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One of the very verses you quoted contradicts your argument. The verse printed below.
[Luk 8:13 KJV] 13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
They believed for a while which means they were saved for a while. They cannot fall away unless they once believed.
That's what 'fall away' means. Falling away does not mean an intellectual assent to the truth. It means what it says.
I told you there was no debate possible.
[Luk 8:13 KJV] 13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
They believed for a while which means they were saved for a while. They cannot fall away unless they once believed.
That's what 'fall away' means. Falling away does not mean an intellectual assent to the truth. It means what it says.
I told you there was no debate possible.
always by course, you must maintain belief, faith, trust your whole life. i said you can backslide, a drawing away from Jesus, but your heart, mind, soul, conscious & spirit are still "adopted' in the family of God. but you can not draw away so much where you become an atheist. the books of John & 1st John & Romans teach you can TOTALLY KNOW the you are saved for all eternity. if there's not a way to know then why become a believer & born again at all? if we remain in disagreement, let's remain with respect for each other. blessings to you Inquisitor.
Yes, it is very much debatable. What do you think "root" means? It means they did not have Christ - Christ (God) is the root. Those without Christ fall away eventually; those with Christ, do not.
[Rom 15:12 KJV] 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
[Rev 22:16 KJV] 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
God alone gives true faith, and He will maintain it until the end. Those with it cannot fall away.
[Phl 1:6 KJV] 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
True faith only comes to someone from the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit only comes to someone from salvation. Once indwelt by the Holy Spirit, His seal reigns over and never leaves them, and hence, neither can salvation or faith leave them, so they cannot fall away.
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[Eph 4:30 KJV] 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
True faith is maintained in those saved by God Himself unto the end. "kept by the power of God" means that those kept cannot fall away.
[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV] 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
It is God's work, not man's, that someone have true faith. It being of God's work, those with it can never fall away.
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
The sum is that there are those who may intellectually ascent to the truth on a superficial level, but that is not the same thing as having true faith.
[Rom 15:12 KJV] 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
[Rev 22:16 KJV] 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
God alone gives true faith, and He will maintain it until the end. Those with it cannot fall away.
[Phl 1:6 KJV] 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
True faith only comes to someone from the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit only comes to someone from salvation. Once indwelt by the Holy Spirit, His seal reigns over and never leaves them, and hence, neither can salvation or faith leave them, so they cannot fall away.
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[Eph 4:30 KJV] 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
True faith is maintained in those saved by God Himself unto the end. "kept by the power of God" means that those kept cannot fall away.
[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV] 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
It is God's work, not man's, that someone have true faith. It being of God's work, those with it can never fall away.
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
The sum is that there are those who may intellectually ascent to the truth on a superficial level, but that is not the same thing as having true faith.