Is personal prophecy scriptural?

[The_Watchers_2017]

From:
Church Fathers

Against Heresies: Book V
“For now,” he says, “we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but then face to face.”44924492 1 Cor. xiii. 9, 12. And this it is which has been said also by Peter: “Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom now also, not seeing, ye believe; and believing, ye shall rejoice with joy unspeakable.”44934493 1 Pet. i. 8. For our face shall see the face of the Lord 44944494 Grabe, Massuet, and Stieren prefer to read, “the face of the living God;” while Harvey adopts the above, reading merely “Domini,” and not “Dei vivi.” and shall rejoice with joy unspeakable,—that is to say, when it shall behold its own Delight.

When we SEE Jesus Face to Face, is the Perfect to Come!

Please Reread This: I just realized, this is in Against Heresies. Church Fathers, are telling us, Cessation, is a Heresy!

Against Heresies: Book V
“For now,” he says, “we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but then face to face.”44924492 1 Cor. xiii. 9, 12. And this it is which has been said also by Peter: “Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom now also, not seeing, ye believe; and believing, ye shall rejoice with joy unspeakable.”44934493 1 Pet. i. 8. For our face shall see the face of the Lord 44944494 Grabe, Massuet, and Stieren prefer to read, “the face of the living God;” while Harvey adopts the above, reading merely “Domini,” and not “Dei vivi.” and shall rejoice with joy unspeakable,—that is to say, when it shall behold its own Delight.

When we SEE Jesus Face to Face, is the Perfect to Come!

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Do you have any other ideas?

Please Reread This: I just realized, this is in Against Heresies. Church Fathers, are telling us, Cessation, is a Heresy!

Against Heresies: Book V
“For now,” he says, “we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but then face to face.”44924492 1 Cor. xiii. 9, 12. And this it is which has been said also by Peter: “Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom now also, not seeing, ye believe; and believing, ye shall rejoice with joy unspeakable.”44934493 1 Pet. i. 8. For our face shall see the face of the Lord 44944494 Grabe, Massuet, and Stieren prefer to read, “the face of the living God;” while Harvey adopts the above, reading merely “Domini,” and not “Dei vivi.” and shall rejoice with joy unspeakable,—that is to say, when it shall behold its own Delight.

When we SEE Jesus Face to Face, is the Perfect to Come!

 

[ResidentAlien]

Agreed.
There are holes in this theory. But it is the best suggestion I have.
Do you have any other ideas?

Not really, it's a very difficult passage.

One theory I do have is where it says: When the perfect has come that which is in part will be done away. This is commonly interpreted by continuationists to mean all the sign gifts will continue till Christ returns. However, it may just mean that sign gifts, even when they're active, only give us a partial picture. It's not saying they won't ever cease, only that they don't give us the complete picture. The preceding verses make it pretty clear Paul expected them to cease. Not that they may not resume at some point, but I haven't seen any real evidence they're active now.

They've ceased for now, but when Christ returns and His kingdom is established they will be done away.

 

[FollowingtheWay]

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to the apostles with a mission to reveal all truth.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The apostles wrote that down by inspiration.

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

When we read it, we can understand the same message the apostles received.

Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Scripture makes complete. Thus, Scripture must itself complete to accomplish this. I.e. “all truth” Jesus promised has been given in the scripture.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The faith has been once for all time delivered. Does it need to be revealed again?

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Understanding this completed miraculous, revelatory work of the Holy Spirit; read:

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

The Spirit said prophecies, tongues and revealed knowledge will cease. The obvious question is when?

v10 when the perfect comes. what is the perfect here? The parts are revelations, so the perfect (complete) is composed of those parts.

The childhood described v11, seeing dimly v. 12 are both illustrations of the beginning of the Spirits work in revealing the Gospel piece by piece, letter by letter to the apostles. But when that completed revelation is given, then there is no more need for ongoing revelations.

Like a puzzle, once you place the last piece do you go back to the box look for more? No. It is completed.

The perfect, in context, is made up of the identified parts. This cannot be a reference to Christ, because when Christ returns there will be miracles anew (resurrection, world on fire, etc).

Thus, modern claims of miracles & revelations & prophecies find themselves unsupported by the Word of the Spirit.

If the Bible was what is “perfect” then when why does it’s translations span across a word for word to thought for thought. Why in the KJV was Holy Spirit incorrectly translated as “It”
Why so much divisive talking and disagreement on scripture? Why so many Church splits over doctrine?
Nah… I’m pretty sure Perfect was referring to Christ Himself when we meet him face to face.

 

[Fundaamental]

I never made any such implication. You continually erroneously assume and falsely accuse.

Not only that, you completely ignore what is said to stay the course of your repetitive inaccurate rambles.

Since you consider expressing my opinion as being very rude, what does that make you?

I spell it . H - Y - P - O - C - R - I - T - E.

the mouth speaks what the heart is fond of, and you have gone from one insult to the next.


Not only are you enjoying insulting me you've also grown bold in your insults.


I will not waste anymore time with you. Goodbye.

 

[Seddrik]

I don't really see how it could possibly be the Bible. The Bible wasn't completed until Paul was long gone so how could he "know" and see "face to face" with it when it didn't exist till he was dead? I don't claim to know the answer, but I've never been at peace with the Bible theory.

If the parts are miraculous revelations, what would the perfect/complete be?
The parts are what compose the whole In the context.

And this is the specified work of the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised John 16:13, the revelation of all truth.

Peter said all things for life and godliness were given 2Pet1:3

To say the. I le wasn’t complted until Paul was long gone, is an assumption.

Manuscript evidence we have dates back to the early second century of complete lists of the NT books we have now. Thus, these completed works must have been in circulation prior to that time.

And how can Scripture make a man of God complete if Scripture is lacking what is needed? 2Tim3:16-17

Did Jesus’ promise of all truth to the apostles fail? Jn16:13

Was Jude wrong when he wrote by inspiration that the faith was once for all time delivered Jude 3?

 

[Seddrik]

If the Bible was what is “perfect” then when why does it’s translations span across a word for word to thought for thought. Why in the KJV was Holy Spirit incorrectly translated as “It”
Why so much divisive talking and disagreement on scripture? Why so many Church splits over doctrine?
Nah… I’m pretty sure Perfect was referring to Christ Himself when we meet him face to face.

Translation issues do not erase the fact that Jesus fulfilled His promise to reveal all truth to the apostles J 16:13

also, we have foot notes, alternate readings, and many undisputed passages which teach the same truth so that no truth is lost even if we literally tossed out every questioned passage. We can detect what the real text is and detect what are translation issues.

1Cor 13 says when the perfect comes miracles will cease.

Yet the NT says when Jesus comes miracles will start (resurrection, etc).

Thus 1Cor13’s “perfect” cannot be Jesus.

church splits and division come from men, not God Gal5:19ff

 

[FollowingtheWay]

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to the apostles with a mission to reveal all truth.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The apostles wrote that down by inspiration.

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

When we read it, we can understand the same message the apostles received.

Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Scripture makes complete. Thus, Scripture must itself complete to accomplish this. I.e. “all truth” Jesus promised has been given in the scripture.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The faith has been once for all time delivered. Does it need to be revealed again?

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Understanding this completed miraculous, revelatory work of the Holy Spirit; read:

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

The Spirit said prophecies, tongues and revealed knowledge will cease. The obvious question is when?

v10 when the perfect comes. what is the perfect here? The parts are revelations, so the perfect (complete) is composed of those parts.

The childhood described v11, seeing dimly v. 12 are both illustrations of the beginning of the Spirits work in revealing the Gospel piece by piece, letter by letter to the apostles. But when that completed revelation is given, then there is no more need for ongoing revelations.

Like a puzzle, once you place the last piece do you go back to the box look for more? No. It is completed.

The perfect, in context, is made up of the identified parts. This cannot be a reference to Christ, because when Christ returns there will be miracles anew (resurrection, world on fire, etc).

Thus, modern claims of miracles & revelations & prophecies find themselves unsupported by the Word of the Spirit.

So if that be the case and all these miracles, revelation and prophecy are unsupported than we have to assume that all knowledge has vanished away as well? Do we live in a world with zero knowledge currently?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

If the parts are miraculous revelations, what would the perfect/complete be?
The parts are what compose the whole In the context.

And this is the specified work of the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised John 16:13, the revelation of all truth.

Peter said all things for life and godliness were given 2Pet1:3

To say the. I le wasn’t complted until Paul was long gone, is an assumption.

Manuscript evidence we have dates back to the early second century of complete lists of the NT books we have now. Thus, these completed works must have been in circulation prior to that time.

And how can Scripture make a man of God complete if Scripture is lacking what is needed? 2Tim3:16-17

Did Jesus’ promise of all truth to the apostles fail? Jn16:13

Was Jude wrong when he wrote by inspiration that the faith was once for all time delivered Jude 3?

Paul, was dead by 67 AD, the parchment Dating method for I-II-III John are not until when the river plant began sewing and gluing around 92 AD and Revelation, 96 AD.

Paul was dead for 25 years before I-II-III John was ever written. And Revelation, is the LAST of the Prophecies, Paul, completely MISSED that!

 

[Cameron143]

Paul, was dead by 67 AD, the parchment Dating method for I-II-III John are not until when the river plant began sewing and gluing around 92 AD and Revelation, 96 AD.

Paul was dead for 25 years before I-II-III John was ever written. And Revelation, is the LAST of the Prophecies, Paul, completely MISSED that!

If Revelation is not concerning the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century, what first century event was being considered that the original readers needed comforting for?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Paul, did not know, that Jesus, put John in charge, of Paul's 7 Churches, because, they were completely all corrupt by 96 AD, as we read in Revelation Chapters 1 and 2.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

If Revelation is not concerning the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century, what first century event was being considered that the original readers needed comforting for?

John, tells us, this is for the Future.
70 AD happened 25 years ago, by this point.

And No Church Father connects Revelation to 70 AD anywhere!

 

[Cameron143]

John, tells us, this is for the Future.
70 AD happened 25 years ago, by this point.

And No Church Father connects Revelation to 70 AD anywhere!

It first has application to those it was written to. What is the relevance to them? And if it is future, why would they need comforting, and why write it to them?

 

[FollowingtheWay]

Yet the NT says when Jesus comes miracles will start (resurrection, etc).

You consider the end times miracles related to the miraculous in acts? Once those end times miracles start it’s no longer about building the church. We have moved from a time of building to a time of Judgment. And I believe what 1cor 13 is calling perfect means when we see Jesus at the renewal of all things. Once the renewal happens obviously we wouldn’t need those miraculous gifts because the Kingdom of God and the Earth will be in perfect alignment. Eden renewed, even better than Original Eden. Christ and the Church will be in 100% union with the Father. All one in spirit and we won’t need any of the gifts beyond that. Everything restored no sin or death or pain. At that point why would we need the miraculous, hence the point of 1Cor:13- Jesus is the perfect described

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Paul, did not know, that Jesus, put John in charge, of Paul's 7 Churches, because, they were completely all corrupt by 96 AD, as we read in Revelation Chapters 1 and 2.

We know from Papias, Polycarp, Ignatius, Ireneaus, and other of Apostle John's Disciples tells us in their writing that after Patmos, John, became Bishop at Ephesus overseeing the other Churches .

So, these Disciples of John tells us John followed Jesus Command and became Bishop.
Paul, NEVER KNEW any of this ^

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

It first has application to those it was written to. What is the relevance to them? And if it is future, why would they need comforting, and why write it to them?

It has nothing to do with Israel of that day.
the 7 Churches were in Asia, not Israel.
that's where the last Apostle ends up at, Asia, not Israel.

Revelation is 100% Future. Even the Churches were Future when John first wrote about them. Then he was released and oversaw them. in Asia!

 

[Cameron143]

It has nothing to do with Israel of that day.
the 7 Churches were in Asia, not Israel.
that's where the last Apostle ends up at, Asia, not Israel.

Revelation is 100% Future. Even the Churches were Future when John first wrote about them. Then he was released and oversaw them. in Asia!

What do...come to pass shortly...in 1:1 and...is at hand...in 1:3 refer to?

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

The "perfect" has definitely come. We know this because the physical manifestations of the Holy Spirit has ceased. This is not a difficult notion to understand.

Just because you're apparently totally IGNORANT of the "physical manifestations of the Holy Spirit" doesn't mean that they've ceased. Blindness about the Kingdom of God (John 3:3) is evidence, that you've never actually become a Christian to begin with. I'd work on THAT first, before you continue to teach error.

 

[Fundaamental]

I don't really see how it could possibly be the Bible. The Bible wasn't completed until Paul was long gone so how could he "know" and see "face to face" with it when it didn't exist till he was dead? I don't claim to know the answer, but I've never been at peace with the Bible theory.

The belief is because a person is blessed with the fruits of the holy spirit there is not a real need for further gifts of the spirit to come or for the holy spirit to visit further.


If we look at Acts 16:6 Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia.


We read that the holy spirit prevented Paul going to asia but no real reason was given as to why

But I can only assume the holy spirit didn't want Paul to preach the Gospel in that region of Asia because of danger to Paul.

You could then call this foreseeing in advance. And also the holy spirit visiting a Christian allready filled with the fruits of the spirit to prevent a future event happening.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

What do...come to pass shortly...in 1:1 and...is at hand...in 1:3 refer to?

It's about the 7 Churches and Verse 4 goes right into it in Chapters 1 and 2.