How to love your family, when God hates the nonelects?
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ThereRoseaLamb,
[Well now you've not been able to prove a Scripture wrong that I've posted. I noticed you skipped answering most of those posts. I'd say the one trying to defend a man instead of the Word is the "emotional" one.
He didn't and many have shared Scripture here to prove that wrong. ]
You and Jn.14 did attempt to offer some good verses, mostly all out of context. They were shown to be just that, out of context.
[No, you fail to understand the character of God. Love and mercy have nothing to do with a god who would send people to hell with no hope, no choice, forbidding them to even cry out to Him, no that is not the God of the Bible. That is the god of Calvin.]
Trying to hide behind the name of Calvin, does not work.If I quote from Calvin, then talk about him. If I do not, try using scripture in context.
[No, sinners can be set free of sin. Some choose to stay in sin. But God wants to set them free. ]
God does not want, He does.
[Well now you've not been able to prove a Scripture wrong that I've posted. I noticed you skipped answering most of those posts. I'd say the one trying to defend a man instead of the Word is the "emotional" one.
He didn't and many have shared Scripture here to prove that wrong. ]
You and Jn.14 did attempt to offer some good verses, mostly all out of context. They were shown to be just that, out of context.
[No, you fail to understand the character of God. Love and mercy have nothing to do with a god who would send people to hell with no hope, no choice, forbidding them to even cry out to Him, no that is not the God of the Bible. That is the god of Calvin.]
Trying to hide behind the name of Calvin, does not work.If I quote from Calvin, then talk about him. If I do not, try using scripture in context.
[No, sinners can be set free of sin. Some choose to stay in sin. But God wants to set them free. ]
God does not want, He does.
How do we know if someone is Saved or Not?
Introduce Jesus and see who knows Him and who does not.
But what people who LABEL Elect and non-Elect do, is to Judge and then Categorize People.
A real Follower of God would NEVER do such a thing.
Therefore, those who use non-Elect to describe a Sinner, is indeed, a non-Elect, describing them self!
No, no, no!! You're not slipping by on that one. No where were the verses I shared out of context. Even you said they were "good verses". You didn't share anything I couldn't counter with Scripture.
ThereRoseaLamb,
[No, you fail to understand the character of God. Love and mercy have nothing to do with a god who would send people to hell with no hope, no choice, forbidding them to even cry out to Him, no that is not the God of the Bible. That is the god of Calvin.]
If I do not, try using scripture in context.
All verses were quoted directly,none out of context.
So then you don't believe all of TULIP...
ThereRoseaLamb said:
[but God CREATED them to be destroyed. Bible doesn't teach it, period.]
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
So random verses taken out of context adds what to the conversation?! God did not create a people to be saved and a people to be damned. He did not create a people that are unable to be saved, who are without hope and damned before they begin life. The Bible does not teach it and those Scriptures don't either.
Is this too hard for you to understand? These are not random verses, but carefully selected verses that teach what that statement offers.
You do not understand what you read?
What do you think Romans 5:6 is speaking about? how about 2pet.3:9? who is that about? what happens to them?
[but God CREATED them to be destroyed. Bible doesn't teach it, period.]
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
So random verses taken out of context adds what to the conversation?! God did not create a people to be saved and a people to be damned. He did not create a people that are unable to be saved, who are without hope and damned before they begin life. The Bible does not teach it and those Scriptures don't either.
Is this too hard for you to understand? These are not random verses, but carefully selected verses that teach what that statement offers.
You do not understand what you read?
What do you think Romans 5:6 is speaking about? how about 2pet.3:9? who is that about? what happens to them?
1 Tim 21
21 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.
Matthew 25:34
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world.
Ephesians 1:5-6
he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
Romans 5:6 when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 9:22
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience evessels of wrath fprepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known gthe riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he hhas prepared beforehand for glory—
Jude 4
For hcertain people ihave crept in unnoticed jwho long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert kthe grace of our God into sensuality and ldeny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Ok, so here are all the verses you choose printed out. Now where do you and I disagree so badly? What do you think I don't understand that you believe based on these verses? Let's reason together.
"ThereRoseaLamb,
I will highlight in red those parts that make the confessional statements based on these scriptures
1 Tim 21
21 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.
Matthew 25:34
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world.
Ephesians 1:5-6
he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
Romans 5:6 when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
The context here is the justified elect
Romans 9:22
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience evessels of wrath fprepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known gthe riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he hhas prepared beforehand for glory—
Jude 4
For hcertain people ihave crept in unnoticed jwho long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert kthe grace of our God into sensuality and ldeny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
[Ok, so here are all the verses you choose printed out. Now where do you and I disagree so badly? What do you think I don't understand that you believe based on these verses? Let's reason together. ]
These verses support the confessional statement. Do you agree?
I will highlight in red those parts that make the confessional statements based on these scriptures
1 Tim 21
21 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.
Matthew 25:34
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world.
Ephesians 1:5-6
he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
Romans 5:6 when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
The context here is the justified elect
Romans 9:22
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience evessels of wrath fprepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known gthe riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he hhas prepared beforehand for glory—
Jude 4
For hcertain people ihave crept in unnoticed jwho long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert kthe grace of our God into sensuality and ldeny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
[Ok, so here are all the verses you choose printed out. Now where do you and I disagree so badly? What do you think I don't understand that you believe based on these verses? Let's reason together. ]
These verses support the confessional statement. Do you agree?
Someone is proven to be a non-Elect if they die choosing to believe heresy; it is impossible for us to know who will die choosing to believe heresy and who will not.
For any who are so challenged that they are mystified when the confessional statements are given, with comments that confuse you.
I will post only two sections of the 1689 confession of faith so you have no excuse to claim you could not find it.
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )
5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )
6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )
7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )
part 2 coming
I will post only two sections of the 1689 confession of faith so you have no excuse to claim you could not find it.
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )
5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )
6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )
7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )
part 2 coming
Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )
3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )
4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25;
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )
3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )
4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25;
He loved them so much he died for them.Does God love those who went to hell because they choose heresy instead of God?
they rejected him, he did not reject them
Nope, Bible doesn't teach it. How could God just pick at random these three live, those three die. That's no different than what Hitler did to the Jews.
So you have to get saved before you're saved like some doggone twice baked potato. Got it.
And non elect infants, go straight to hell? Don't pass go, don't collect a hundred dollars? Just what makes an infant "non elect"? Could someone explain that one to me?
4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
Nope again, Bible doesn't teach it. Nowhere does the Bible teach that a person cannot be born again, unless they choose that path. God would be beyond cruel, beyond Hitler, to tell people to come to Him when he literally created people that cannot come to Him. That attacks the very heart and character of God.
TRL, Your responses here show why you have not come to truth. I can respond and show you exactly why as you deny biblical revelation, and create your own false non gospel. I can do it , if you want me to, but I do not want to embarrass you publicly.
Let me know if you would like to take sometime and actually read the verses the Confession offered to explain where the teaching comes from!
That can't be true. If God has hardened the non elects heart, how can He blame them for doing what He created them to do.
Right, God knowing the future doesn't mean He meddles in it.
Ah, so satan didn't fall from his position in heaven of his own volition, that was Gods fault. And he didn't tempt Eve, she was just doing what God created her to do.
So what I'm hearing is God saves people against their will and dooms other against their will. Like a fat mean kid with a magnifying glass that sizzles ants on the sidewalk, thats basically Calvins view of God.
We got it, God, for no reason, choose certain people to be the elect. And we don't know who is elect or why. We don't even know for sure if the elect will be saved. Sounds like a game of cosmic Russian roulette.
Sadly, The one who should be emberassed is not @ThereRoseaLamb,TRL, Your responses here show why you have not come to truth. I can respond and show you exactly why as you deny biblical revelation, and create your own false non gospel. I can do it , if you want me to, but I do not want to embarrass you publicly.
Let me know if you would like to take sometime and actually read the verses the Confession offered to explain where the teaching comes from!