water baptism in Jesus' Name.

[GaryA]

Your two verses are perfectly clear and straight forward.
We must repent for the remission of sins.
but
These verses do not negate the same perfectly clear and straight forward message of Acts 2:38 and others.
Since you agree that Luke 24:46-48 & Acts 3:18,19 are clear, why can you not see the same for Acts 2:38.
Were they not all written by the same author? Why can you not accept Luke's simple words:

‘Turn back!’ replied Peter. ‘Be baptized – every single one of you – in the name of Jesus the Messiah, so that your sins can be forgiven, and you will receive the gift of the holy spirit.

Luke 24:46-48, Acts 2:38 and Acts3:18,19 are in harmony.

Repentance and baptism are needed for the remission of sins.

Acts 2:

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The meaning of the word 'for' in this verse is in the sense of 'because of' and not 'in order to obtain'.

You have a bad bible translation - which has twisted "Luke's simple words" into something the original greek does not actually say.

And - yes - it really does matter what bible version you use.

 

[heartwashed]

I have not read anything beyond the first page. And, I am not so sure that I really care to. Because, I do not wish to waste time arguing with you.

In 50 pages - has no one told you that the phrase "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" tells us explicitly that it is not talking about 'soul-salvation'...?!?!?!

I am guessing someone has but you are not listening.

You need to exit 'teaching' mode and enter 'learning' mode on this topic. Go back and study it again in the context of the chapter and the book.

No one has mentioned that; very likely because it isn't true.

Clearly, the fact that it is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh has nothing to do with soul salvation but indicates that it is not talking about the redemption of the flesh (while 1 Peter 3:20-21 does speak of soul salvation).

Clearly, there is nothing redeemable about the flesh. The only way to deal with it is to crucify it (Galatians 2:20, Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:6). That is how the flesh is sanctified (1 Thessalonians 5:23); by putting it to death.

The soul, however, is made alive when we are given a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:25-27) in order that we might walk in newness of life (Romans 6:3-4). The verses referenced show that this is accomplished in water baptism.

As for going into learning mode, I am always open to learning while I am teaching; if anyone has something exemplary to offer in the way of teaching. If anyone can show me that I am wrong by quoting a scripture that refutes my point of view, or if anyone gives sound logic coming from the scriptures, then I have changed my point of view in times past and will do so again in a heartbeat, to conform my doctrine to the holy scriptures (specifically, the kjv).

 

[heartwashed]

Acts 2:

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The meaning of the word 'for' in this verse is in the sense of 'because of' and not 'in order to obtain'.

You have a bad bible translation - which has twisted "Luke's simple words" into something the original greek does not actually say.

And - yes - it really does matter what bible version you use.

I looked at all of the translations that are used at blue letter bible, and all of them say "for" except two of them...the ASV says "unto" and the YLT says "to"....and these latter two have literally the same meaning as when it is translated "for". Certainly none of them renders it "because of".

So, that is a big red "X"...

I disagree because no translation renders it the way you want it...

It is a made-up doctrine given by teachers that those with itching ears want to hear.

 

[mailmandan]

in the parable of the sower, the 2nd and third types of ground are living plants and also have faith in Jesus Christ unto being forgiven of their sins. For, as Magenta had quoted over and over,

Act 10:43, To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

So, the one who "believes and then falls away" (Luke 8:13) falls under this category of those who have received remission (forgiveness). However, because they fall away, they do not keep that forgiveness for ever. This is also the category of those who merely believe but are never baptized...they "should" not perish...whereas those who believe and are baptized "shall" be saved. It is wrong to defer to another translation because you prefer it over and above the kjv...you are doing what was prophesied in 2 Timothy 4:3.

As for John 1:18. He that believeth on him "is not condemned" for the present moment. But if he falls away, he will lose the forgiveness that he had because of believing (Luke 8:13).

You seem to be advocating the idea that someone can believe and not have remission (forgiveness) of sins. That would contradict Magenta's contention of Acts 10:43...and would indicate that not everyone who believes has forgiveness of sins. If that is the case, then salvation is also "iffy" with mere belief.

However, I think that the proper exegesis would tell us that Acts 10:43 is speaking of all believers; but that some "believe and then fall away" (Luke 8:13) and for them, salvation is also "iffy" while they have mere faith because as long as they have not been baptized, there is the danger of falling away.

But even if, as you say, there is a mental assent that does not bring salvation, that can be defined as belief (as in Luke 8:13), it would be true that not everyone who believes necessarily has salvation. In that case, Acts 10:43 cannot be taken as an absolute promise; and not everyone who believes is necessarily saved / forgiven. And therefore, belief alone would not be any kind of guarantee of salvation. Thus "iffy".

I disagree with your eisegesis and I already thoroughly explained all of this in post #892. If you still don't understand then I can't help you any further. A shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit, lacks moisture and withers away is not saving faith in Jesus. Only those who truly believe in Jesus for salvation have remission of sins. (Acts 10:43) Those who permanently fall away demonstrate that their faith was never firmly rooted and established in the first place. There is no iffy salvation. Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ for salvation and we are saved or else we are not.

 

[mailmandan]

It does when you use the biblical hermeneutic of 1 Corinthians 2:13, and compare Acts 2:39 to Romans 8:30.

False. You are using flawed hermeneutics. Now show me the specific words, "baptized or condemned in scripture." Jesus said, he who does not believe will be condemned. (John 3:18)

 

[mailmandan]

The doctrine of baptisms cannot be mentioned in every verse, it would convolute the scriptures. God expects you to understand the scriptures on faith in conjunction with the scriptures that speak of baptism.

"faith" is in "the operation of God" (Colossians 2:12) -- baptism (see Ezekiel 36:25-27).

Your eisegesis is getting old. God expects you to know the difference between faith and baptism and faith in Jesus for salvation and faith in baptism for salvation. If water baptism was also necessary for salvation, then God would not make so many statements in scripture in which He promises salvation to those who simply believe/place faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:24; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

 

[mailmandan]

I don't think that I am wrong here. Luke 7:29-30 tells me that those who have not been baptized will reject the counsel of God; and those who have been will receive it.

Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (signified by) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (signified by) not having been baptized by John. Becoming a disciple of John was a heart decision made prior to receiving water baptism.

Thus, you reject the counsel of God because you have not been baptized, specifically, with baptism in Jesus' Name for the remission of sins.

Salvation by water baptism is not the counsel of God. Water baptism signified the people and tax collectors acknowledged the justice of God[in calling them to repentance. In Matthew 21:32, we read - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

But it preaches salvation to the one who is baptized in Jesus' Name and is seeking to be justified by faith in Christ (Acts 2:38-39)

Justification by faith in Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 5:1,2) is not salvation by water baptism. You are a one string banjo - salvation by water baptism - plink, plink..

 

[mailmandan]

Hi mailmandan,

In Ephesians 5:26, the word "word" of God according to Strong's G4487,
Strong's g4487

- Lexical: ῥῆμα
- Transliteration: rhéma
- Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
- Phonetic Spelling: hray'-mah
- Definition: a thing spoken, (a) a word or saying of any kind, as command, report, promise, (b) a thing, matter, business.
- Origin: From rheo; an utterance (individually, collectively or specially); by implication, a matter or topic (especially of narration, command or dispute); with a negative naught whatever.
- Usage: + evil, + nothing, saying, word.
- Translated as (count): words (28), word (25), saying (5), matters (2), a message (1), by word (1), declaration (1), matter (1), of words (1), sayings (1), the word (1), thing (1), things (1).

Ephesians 5:26 - He did this to make the church holy by cleansing it, washing it using water, with the "............" 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

Anyone of the above words could have been used in Ephesians 5:26 for the word "word" like, saying, message, or declaration.

The word "water" is used in scripture as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. This has nothing to do with baptismal regeneration.

Here is a question for you: There are nine conversion stories in the book of Acts. In every story, they were always baptized the same day they believed. Why? Just maybe as one studies all of the verses on baptism there is a good reason for so doing.

Why not get water baptized the same day you believed and were saved? Unless you were unable to. I received Christ through faith after hearing and believing the gospel and was saved several years ago while at home on a late Saturday night, but was unable to receive water baptism until Sunday morning.

God bless you, mailmandan!
Wayne

God bless you.

I have three different translations that translate this verse using: word, saying, and declaration and it is used in other places in the New Testament with these words and others, too.

Also, it is not "logos"

Young's Living Translation: "that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it with the bathing of the water in the "saying"
God's Word:

So what is your conclusion? Do you believe that the word is an emblem of water baptism here instead of the word? John 15:3, Jesus said - You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Ephesians 5:26 - that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

 

[mailmandan]

What did Peter do after the group received the Holy Ghost in order not to withstand God? He commanded they be baptized in water in the name of the Lord.

It was after hearing everything that occurred that the Jews accepted that God granted the Gentiles repentance unto life. (Acts 11:18) A vivid parallel of the requirements set forth on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:38-39)

"When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. (Acts 11:18)

The evidence is overwhelming that these Gentles believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues (which is a spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism. Certain Jews may have wanted to forbid these Gentiles from being baptized because of their unacceptance of the Gentiles, but Peter clearly states that SURELY NO ONE CAN REFUSE. These Gentiles were clearly SAVED BEFORE WATER BAPTISM and the Holy Spirit was proof of this. (Romans 8:9; 1 John 4:13)

So faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

 

[mailmandan]

The Spirit is involved in every aspect of the NT rebirth.
Man takes a step of faith in obedience to God's command to be water baptized in the name of Jesus. And the Spirit brings about the associated reality of having one's sins destroyed. AND drinking into one Spirit is receiving the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. Both are essential to the NT rebirth.

Man takes a step in obedience to God's command to be water baptized AFTER man has believed the gospel, received the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit and the remission of sins. (Acts 10:43-47) Believers drink into one Spirit prior to receiving water baptism. You continue to confuse the picture with the reality.

 

[heartwashed]

A shallow, temporary belief

Is belief (and therefore faith) nonetheless.

And therefore it apprehends the promise of Acts 10:43.

Even if it doesn't, in that scenario a person can have faith in Jesus and then not apprehend forgiveness of sins according to that verse.

And therefore, in that scenario, mere belief is still "iffy".

For it should be clear that faith is being spoken of in Luke 8:13.

Even if it is a nominal, shallow faith, it is what people today might identify as faith today in their own lives.

So, if you think that you have faith; and have not been baptized, I would say that you "should" not perish.

But if you have faith and have been baptized, then I would say that you "shall" be saved.

But if you do not have faith, period, then I think that I can say pretty certainly that you have not been baptized.

 

[heartwashed]

False. You are using flawed hermeneutics. Now show me the specific words, "baptized or condemned in scripture." Jesus said, he who does not believe will be condemned. (John 3:18)

If you can show me anyone who does not believe and is yet baptized, then I will admit that there are those who are baptized not who are not condemned.

Personally, I think that baptism is a step of faith and does not happen without faith.

So, those who do not have faith, are generally not baptized.

 

[mailmandan]

The word of truth, the gospel of salvation, referenced in the Ephesians scripture below, is in fact what Peter initially presented on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:2-42) And, Paul revealed to the Ephesian disciples in Acts 19:1-7. It is trust in Jesus that prompts individual's to believe and obey the God given commands. All are essential to the NT rebirth.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Ephesians 1:13 says nothing about water baptism. We trust in Jesus when we believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21) Are you ready to repent (change your mind) and believe the gospel by trusting in the Savior-God (Jesus Christ) for salvation? Or are you determined to continue to trust in water baptism as your supplemental Savior?

 

[heartwashed]

Your eisegesis is getting old. God expects you to know the difference between faith and baptism and faith in Jesus for salvation and faith in baptism for salvation. If water baptism was also necessary for salvation, then God would not make so many statements in scripture in which He promises salvation to those who simply believe/place faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:24; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

God expects you to get your doctrine from the whole of scripture.

If the Bible were one verse, every doctrine of the Bible would not fit into that one verse.

So, sometimes God speaks of certain doctrines in specific verses; and expects you to get other doctrines from other verses.

Do a search on the word "baptize / baptized / baptism" and you may get a concise understanding of "the doctrine of baptisms" (Hebrews 6:1-3).

You may not get a doctrine about baptism from a verse that speaks about faith.

While there are a few verses that speak of both things, singular verses do not have enough room to speak of both doctrines for the most part.

 

[heartwashed]

Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (signified by) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (signified by) not having been baptized by John. Becoming a disciple of John was a heart decision made prior to receiving water baptism.

Friend, I think that you just added to the word.

 

[heartwashed]

Salvation by water baptism is not the counsel of God.

It most assuredly is.

 

[heartwashed]

Justification by faith in Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 5:1,2) is not salvation by water baptism. You are a one string banjo - salvation by water baptism - plink, plink..

While I do repeat myself often in this thread according to the subject of the thread, I do also speak on other subjects.

As concerning this subject, it should be clear that we can receive remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost through repentance and the ordinance of water baptism in Jesus' Name.

Why not just "get this one done"?

 

[heartwashed]

Man takes a step in obedience to God's command to be water baptized AFTER man has believed the gospel, received the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit and the remission of sins. (Acts 10:43-47) Believers drink into one Spirit prior to receiving water baptism. You continue to confuse the picture with the reality.

Why, in Acts 2:37-41, were the disciples who were baptized, not saved until after they were baptized? Did they not believe before they were baptized? Yet Peter exhorts them to "be saved from this untoward generation" after they repented and immediately before they were baptized.

 

[mailmandan]

Is belief (and therefore faith) nonetheless.

And therefore it apprehends the promise of Acts 10:43.

Even if it doesn't, in that scenario a person can have faith in Jesus and then not apprehend forgiveness of sins according to that verse.

And therefore, in that scenario, mere belief is still "iffy".

For it should be clear that faith is being spoken of in Luke 8:13.

Even if it is a nominal, shallow faith, it is what people today might identify as faith today in their own lives.

So, if you think that you have faith; and have not been baptized, I would say that you "should" not perish.

But if you have faith and have been baptized, then I would say that you "shall" be saved.

But if you do not have faith, period, then I think that I can say pretty certainly that you have not been baptized.

Not all belief is the same, as I already thoroughly explained to you in post #892, but apparently, what I explained to you just seemed to go right over your head. Your iffy salvation is ridiculous. Faith without works is dead. Remember? (James 2:20) Yet you refer to this shallow, temporary belief in Luke 8:13 that has no root, produces no fruit, lacks moisture and withers away as saving faith? Get real. I know I have faith. I am trusting 100% in Jesus Christ for salvation. Everything with you is about baptism. It's like an obsession! You seem to have more faith in baptism to save you than you do in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Sad. I already previously explained that I have already received water baptism following my conversion several years ago, so that's not an issue. I can't think of one Christian I know who refused to be water baptized after their conversion.

 

[heartwashed]

Ephesians 1:13 says nothing about water baptism. We trust in Jesus when we believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21) Are you ready to repent (change your mind) and believe the gospel by trusting in the Savior-God (Jesus Christ) for salvation? Or are you determined to continue to trust in water baptism as your supplemental Savior?

God expects you to get your doctrine from the whole of scripture.

If the Bible were one verse, every doctrine of the Bible would not fit into that one verse.

So, sometimes God speaks of certain doctrines in specific verses; and expects you to get other doctrines from other verses.

Do a search on the word "baptize / baptized / baptism" and you may get a concise understanding of "the doctrine of baptisms" (Hebrews 6:1-3).

You may not get a doctrine about baptism from a verse that speaks about faith.

While there are a few verses that speak of both things, singular verses do not have enough room to speak of both doctrines for the most part.