The Trinity...my take.

[evyaniy]

John chapter 5 verses

17 But Yeshua answered them, “My Father is still working, so I am working, too.”
18 For this cause therefore the Judeans sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also called YAH His own Father, making Himself equal with YAH. 19 Yeshua therefore answered them, “Most certainly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father doing. For whatever things He does, these the Son also does likewise. 20 For the Father has affection for the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does. He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He desires. 22 For the Father judges no one, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who doesn’t honor the Son doesn’t honor the Father Who sent Him.

26 For as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself. 27 He also gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is a son of man. 28 Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice 29 and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I don’t seek My own will, but the will of My Father Who sent Me.

36 But the testimony which I have is greater than that of John(the Baptist); for the works which the Father gave Me to accomplish, the very works that I do, testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 The Father Himself, Who sent Me, has testified about Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 You don’t have His word living in you, because you don’t believe Him Whom He sent.
39 “You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify about Me. 40 Yet you will not come to Me, that you may have life. 41 I don’t receive glory from men. 42 But I know you, that you don’t have YAH’s love in yourselves. 43 I have come in My Father’s Name, and you don’t receive Me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him.

 

[heartwashed]

I'm not speaking for Angela... but for me, sometimes during a conversation we meet people who are not in the convo to "hear" anything... they're just there to shout their "truth", and pummel others into hearing their message. They're minds and hearts are long past the place to be teachable themselves.

Also, their part of the conversation... their message, is so far of base that it would take a vast amount of time to even get real truth entered into the conversation. Not to mention that it's not our will or skill at conversation that enters into play where the Gospel message is concerned... it's the Holy Spirit the brings folks understanding. And if the person is so off base and also closed to learning anything... well, Scripture talks about folks like this. hardened hearts, and all.

hard crowd.

 

[Blain]

No it doesn't. Those who don't believe, don't have eternal life.

That is limited salvation.

If you oblige to predestination then your choice isn't a factor you can't have it both ways because if it is a choice theen that means there is a chance you can be saved and there is a chance yopu will reject it.

If one was predistined their supposed choice would have been predecided which means it wasn't really a choice because it was going to happen anyways

And again Jesus said whoever and if one chooses not to believe that is not limited salvation that is how the gospel of Christ works

He gives the call he offers the gift of salvation but he never forces it he treasures a willing child not a forced or prechosen one.

Jesus was plain and clear in what he said you can try to rationalize it any way you want but but he is saying how it is and I personally am not one to call him a liar just because what he says goes against my beleifs. I am after the truth the real thing even if it means I was wrong about most of my own beleiefs and understanding.

So when Jesus himself speaks I don't add my own interpretation of my own thoughts or thinking I don't take away anything he says I take what he says as truth and that is it.

 

[heartwashed]

If you oblige to predestination then your choice isn't a factor you can't have it both ways because if it is a choice theen that means there is a chance you can be saved and there is a chance yopu will reject it.

If one was predistined their supposed choice would have been predecided which means it wasn't really a choice because it was going to happen anyways

And again Jesus said whoever and if one chooses not to believe that is not limited salvation that is how the gospel of Christ works

He gives the call he offers the gift of salvation but he never forces it he treasures a willing child not a forced or prechosen one.

Jesus was plain and clear in what he said you can try to rationalize it any way you want but but he is saying how it is and I personally am not one to call him a liar just because what he says goes against my beleifs. I am after the truth the real thing even if it means I was wrong about most of my own beleiefs and understanding.

So when Jesus himself speaks I don't add my own interpretation of my own thoughts or thinking I don't take away anything he says I take what he says as truth and that is it.

see post #138 (https://christianchat.com/threads/the-trinity-my-take.211049/post-5081849).

 

[heartwashed]

hard crowd.

Jeremiah the prophet preached to Israel the message that God gave him and produced absolutely zero converts.

But he was faithful to preach the message that God had given to him.

So the Lord Jesus will say to him on that day, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant."

Likewise, Ezekiel was sent to a hardened Israel, and was told to preach to them "whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear; for they are a rebellious house."

He also did not make many converts, if any.

But Jesus will say to him, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant."

And therefore, if I do not make any converts with my preaching, at least I know that I am being faithful to preach the message that God has given me.

(For of my doctrine I say as Paul said of his doctrine,

Gal 1:11, But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12, For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

and,

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) )

He will say to me on that day, as He will say to Jeremiah and Ezekiel on that day.

And this is what I say to the reader...

Act 20:26, Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
Act 20:27, For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

 

[evyaniy]

John chapter 6 verses

27 Don’t work for the food which perishes, but for the food which remains to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For YAH the Father has sealed Him.”

28 They said therefore to Him, “What must we do, that we may work the works of YAH?”
29 Yeshua answered them, “This is the work of YAH, that you believe in Him Whom He has sent.”
30 They said therefore to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, that we may see and believe You? What work do you do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness. As it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’ ”*
32 Yeshua therefore said to them, “Most certainly, I tell you, it wasn’t Moses who gave you the bread out of heaven, but my Father gives you the true Bread out of heaven. 33 For the Bread of YAH is that which comes down out of heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 They said therefore to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”
35 Yeshua said to them, “I am the Bread of life. Whoever comes to Me will not be hungry, and whoever believes in Me will never be thirsty. 36 But I told you that you have seen Me, and yet you don’t believe. 37 All those whom the Father gives Me will come to Me. He who comes to Me I will in no way throw out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him Who sent Me. 39 This is the will of My Father Who sent Me, that of all He has given to Me I should lose nothing, but should raise Him up at the last day. 40 This is the will of the One Who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life; and I will raise Him up at the last day.”
41 The Judeans therefore murmured concerning Him, because He said, “I am the Bread which came down out of heaven.” 42 They said, “Isn’t this Yeshua, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then does He say, ‘I have come down out of heaven?’ ”
43 Therefore Yeshua answered them, “Don’t murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up in the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘They will all be taught by YAH.’ Therefore everyone who hears from the Father and has learned, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He Who is from YAH. He has seen the Father. 47 Most certainly, I tell you, He who believes in Me has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness and they died. 50 This is the Bread which comes down out of heaven, that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the Living Bread which came down out of heaven. If anyone eats of this Bread, he will live forever. Yes, the bread which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will also live because of Me.

61 But Yeshua knowing in Himself that His disciples murmured at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? 62 Then what if you would see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit Who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are Spirit, and are Life.

 

[Blain]

see post #138 (https://christianchat.com/threads/the-trinity-my-take.211049/post-5081849).

Yes I read it again did I miss something or was there a part in particular you wanted me to see?

The analogy is well done though I give you props for that one but the choice being presented and how you say until the choice but if one is predestined then how do you accept the choice factor which involves free will which also means nothing is set in stone.

Perhaps you can explain because if we have the freedom to choose or not choose then how can one be predestined it isn't a concept that seems to work in fact it seems to oppose itself.

 

[heartwashed]

Yes I read it again did I miss something or was there a part in particular you wanted me to see?

The analogy is well done though I give you props for that one but the choice being presented and how you say until the choice but if one is predestined then how do you accept the choice factor which involves free will which also means nothing is set in stone.

Perhaps you can explain because if we have the freedom to choose or not choose then how can one be predestined it isn't a concept that seems to work in fact it seems to oppose itself.

The point is that you don't know whether or not you are predestined until after you enter in through the door or else face judgment at the Great White Throne.

Before that, it is presented to you as a choice. God knows whether or not you will make that choice, and has predestined accordingly. If He knows that you will go through the door, then He has already set your place at the table.

Predestination is according to foreknowledge (Romans 8:29-30, 1 Peter 1:2).

 

[evyaniy]

John chapter 7 verses

16 Yeshua therefore answered them, “My teaching is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. 17 If anyone desires to do His will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from YAH or if I am speaking from Myself. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory, but He Who seeks the glory of Him Who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.

28 Yeshua therefore cried out in the temple, teaching and saying, “You both know Me, and know where I am from. I have not come of Myself, but He Who sent Me is true, Whom You don’t know. 29 I know him, because I am from him, and He sent Me.”

37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Yeshua stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink! 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But He said this about the Spirit, which those believing in Him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Yeshua wasn’t yet glorified.

 

[Blain]

Jeremiah the prophet preached to Israel the message that God gave him and produced absolutely zero converts.

But he was faithful to preach the message that God had given to him.

So the Lord Jesus will say to him on that day, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant."

Likewise, Ezekiel was sent to a hardened Israel, and was told to preach to them "whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear; for they are a rebellious house."

He also did not make many converts, if any.

But Jesus will say to him, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant."

And therefore, if I do not make any converts with my preaching, at least I know that I am being faithful to preach the message that God has given me.

(For of my doctrine I say as Paul said of his doctrine,

Gal 1:11, But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12, For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

and,

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) )

He will say to me on that day, as He will say to Jeremiah and Ezekiel on that day.

And this is what I say to the reader...

Act 20:26, Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
Act 20:27, For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

He doesn't want you to convert other believers to your doctrine he wants you to bring others closer to him to reigniht that fire in their hearts to stir the spirit in them to bring the kingdom here into the hearts of the church which has falleb asleep.

He is calling us to a higher and deeper level dimes=nsion and posaaition

The point is that you don't know whether or not you are predestined until after you enter in through the door or else face judgment at the Great White Throne.

Before that, it is presented to you as a choice. God knows whether or not you will make that choice, and has predestined accordingly. If He knows that you will go through the door, then He has already set your place at the table.

Predestination is according to foreknowledge (Romans 8:29-30, 1 Peter 1:2).

Why would it matter if you knew or not if you were predestined? if you are predestined it was never about your choice he decided beforehand right? So if he chose you before hand why would the choosing have any factor we don't even have the ability to change the color of our hair let alone have the ability to choose a predestined decision with free will and if it was our choice at all then mere fact there is a choice makes it dependent on whether you accept him or not and if he had foreknwoledge which he does but if he decided to create some who would go to heaven and some who were doomed to go tohell when he is known to be a just fair and loving God it doesn't add up.

As I said before all throughout the bible the theme of salvation the theme og grace and his generosity is scattered all throughout the scripture using terms like freely given freely recieved calling salvation a gift not earned saying things like if you believe if you have faith if you trust him ect.

Many terms and phrases used to describe the aspect of salvation given freely and that you only have to believe.

So the thing is you can rationalize what he said any way you want but he clearly said how it works you add to it and you make a liar out of hjim.

It is one thing to interpret scripture by other books and verses but when it comes to Jesus you respect what he says you don't add or take away from his words I learned that the hard you don't want to get that stern look I got.

 

[heartwashed]

He doesn't want you to convert other believers to your doctrine he wants you to bring others closer to him to reigniht that fire in their hearts to stir the spirit in them to bring the kingdom here into the hearts of the church which has falleb asleep.

He is calling us to a higher and deeper level dimes=nsion and posaaition
Why would it matter if you knew or not if you were predestined? if you are predestined it was never about your choice he decided beforehand right? So if he chose you before hand why would the choosing have any factor we don't even have the ability to change the color of our hair let alone have the ability to choose a predestined decision with free will and if it was our choice at all then mere fact there is a choice makes it dependent on whether you accept him or not and if he had foreknwoledge which he does but if he decided to create some who would go to heaven and some who were doomed to go tohell when he is known to be a just fair and loving God it doesn't add up.

As I said before all throughout the bible the theme of salvation the theme og grace and his generosity is scattered all throughout the scripture using terms like freely given freely recieved calling salvation a gift not earned saying things like if you believe if you have faith if you trust him ect.

Many terms and phrases used to describe the aspect of salvation given freely and that you only have to believe.

So the thing is you can rationalize what he said any way you want but he clearly said how it works you add to it and you make a liar out of hjim.

It is one thing to interpret scripture by other books and verses but when it comes to Jesus you respect what he says you don't add or take away from his words I learned that the hard you don't want to get that stern look I got.

How have I added to it and made a liar out of Him?

God did predestinate according to foreknowledge according to His word.

From your perspective, because you don't know that you haven'r been predestined, the severity of hell ought to motivate you to seek after God until you know that you have been. If it doesn't, then maybe you were never predestined to salvation. But if it does, then you will make the choice to seek after God until you have obtained the promise; and will find that you were predestinated to salvation.

From man's perspective it is our choice.

From God's perspective it is His.

Because He looks down the annals of time and sees who will have faith in Him and who will not.

Also it is written,

Pro 16:4, The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

[evyaniy]

Did He ever say we needed a complete understanding of the Father, Son and Spirit to be saved? We are to believe the Father sent the Son to die for our sins and then be raised to life again so we may receive the Holy Spirit and Eternal Life.

If only the theological experts can be saved then heaven would be a lonely place with constant argument on who got it righter.

Fact is nearly no one even knows Who is speaking in the Psalms. The Psalms are shared by the main religions of the world and hardly a handful see it. One day we will.

What is essential for Eternal Life is believing on the Son for forgiveness of sins and Salvation and Life. Knowing that many of the Psalms are His prayers can certainly lead to faith in Him as the Savior and Messiah. Most do not agree that most of the Psalms are His prayers but if they believe He is the Son Who was sent by the Father to save the world, they will receive Eternal Life, according to the Gospel of John and letters of Paul and Peter and the others and the Messiah HimSelf.

 

[heartwashed]

Did He ever say we needed a complete understanding of the Father, Son and Spirit to be saved? We are to believe the Father sent the Son to die for our sins and then be raised to life again so we may receive the Holy Spirit and Eternal Life.

If only the theological experts can be saved then heaven would be a lonely place with constant argument on who got it righter.

Fact is nearly no one even knows Who is speaking in the Psalms. The Psalms are shared by the main religions of the world and hardly a handful see it. One day we will.

What is essential for Eternal Life is believing on the Son for forgiveness of sins and Salvation and Life. Knowing that many of the Psalms are His prayers can certainly lead to faith in Him as the Savior and Messiah. Most do not agree that most of the Psalms are His prayers but if they believe He is the Son Who was sent by the Father to save the world, they will receive Eternal Life, according to the Gospel of John and letters of Paul and Peter and the others and the Messiah HimSelf.

If a person doesn't yet understand sound doctrine, that is one thing.

If they understand it and then reject it, that is an entirely different story.

 

[heartwashed]

Did He ever say we needed a complete understanding of the Father, Son and Spirit to be saved? We are to believe the Father sent the Son to die for our sins and then be raised to life again so we may receive the Holy Spirit and Eternal Life.

If only the theological experts can be saved then heaven would be a lonely place with constant argument on who got it righter.

Fact is nearly no one even knows Who is speaking in the Psalms. The Psalms are shared by the main religions of the world and hardly a handful see it. One day we will.

What is essential for Eternal Life is believing on the Son for forgiveness of sins and Salvation and Life. Knowing that many of the Psalms are His prayers can certainly lead to faith in Him as the Savior and Messiah. Most do not agree that most of the Psalms are His prayers but if they believe He is the Son Who was sent by the Father to save the world, they will receive Eternal Life, according to the Gospel of John and letters of Paul and Peter and the others and the Messiah HimSelf.

It is important to understand that in the Son, Jesus Christ, dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9 (kjv)).

 

[evyaniy]

If a person doesn't yet understand sound doctrine, that is one thing.

If they understand it and then reject it, that is an entirely different story.

What is sound doctrine? Major denominations have had it wrong for centuries. Yet the people who have faith in the Son for forgiveness of sins will receive Eternal Life according to what He said.

Different churches and denominations may worship many different ways and have different doctrines. That does not exclude believers in the Son from the Salvation He accomplished through faith in Him.

 

[evyaniy]

It is important to understand that in the Son, Jesus Christ, dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9 (kjv)).

as well as Him saying I and the Father are One; and if you see Me you see the Father; and the verses you referenced earlier from John 14.

16 I will pray to the Father, and He will give you another Counselor, that He may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth, Whom the world can’t receive, for it doesn’t see Him and doesn’t know Him. You know Him, for He lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans. I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world will see Me no more; but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

 

[heartwashed]

Such a heretical thread, I honestly don't know where to start! Basic Christian orthodoxy, being contradicted by people who make things up on their own whim! I do hope this thread improves. Perhaps I will come back in the day time,, and write what the Trinity is!

This is clearly an accusation without evidence.

I challenge you to write what you think the Trinity is; and we will see whether your version stands up to scrutiny as mine has.

(for no one as yet, in 156 posts, has been able to show how any of what I have written in the OP is unbiblical).

 

[heartwashed]

as well as Him saying I and the Father are One; and if you see Me you see the Father; and the verses you referenced earlier from John 14.

16 I will pray to the Father, and He will give you another Counselor, that He may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth, Whom the world can’t receive, for it doesn’t see Him and doesn’t know Him. You know Him, for He lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans. I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world will see Me no more; but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

Also John 8:24, realizing that I AM is referring to the voice in the burning bush (Exodus 3:14); which is YHWH; even the Father.

 

[heartwashed]

Yet the people who have faith in the Son for forgiveness of sins will receive Eternal Life according to what He said.

Knowing who the Son really is is important, too (2 Corinthians 11:3-4).

 

[evyaniy]

Knowing who the Son really is is important, too (2 Corinthians 11:3-4).

from verse 3.

the simplicity that is in Messiah.

Believe in the Son and that the Father raised Him from the dead and thou shalt be saved and receive the Holy Spirit.

That's the point. The Gospel message is simple and available to everyone who believes in Him. How they choose to worship is a separate matter. What denominations would be excluded on the basis of their doctrines? Yet how many people who choose to worship there have simple faith in Him and will receive Eternal Life?

None of us have it all right. We are all flawed in our understanding and doctrines and behaviors to some degree. Some think they need to adhere to a set of sacraments or Church teachings. That does not exclude them from Salvation. Many stayed with the Church of their parents. Those Church doctrines may be greatly flawed. Those with simple faith in the Son still receive His promise of Eternal Life despite doctrinal issues in the church they attend.