I am trying to make sure first I am understanding your doctrine mainly I want to know first if your understanding is that water baptism is the point of where one recieves salvation and if not then do you consider one who was never baptized in water but by the spirit to be saved. I am wanting to know your understanind on baptism salvation and at what point one is considered to be saved.
The Trinity...my take.
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I think that there are passages in the word that may in fact teach that we may be saved apart from water baptism in Jesus' Name.
However, when I look at Acts 2:39 as compared to Romans 8:30, it makes me believe that salvation only comes to the called who have been baptized in Jesus' Name; for Acts 2:38-39 is speaking of a conditional promise given to "as many as the Lord our God shall call."
However, when I look at Acts 2:39 as compared to Romans 8:30, it makes me believe that salvation only comes to the called who have been baptized in Jesus' Name; for Acts 2:38-39 is speaking of a conditional promise given to "as many as the Lord our God shall call."
Where did Jesus say that? and it is not written in eph. 2
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
And is it written or not written that God desires that all be saved and come to repentence? does that sound like limted salvation?
What about all those who are weary come to me and I will give you rest? What about grace waS FEELY GVIEN FAITH NOT WORKS AND MOST IMPORTANTLY THE BLOOD THAT WAS SHED WAS IT SHED OFR ALL MANKIND FOR THE SALVATION OF ALL WHO WOULD RECIEVE IT OR THE SO CALLED ELECT?
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
And is it written or not written that God desires that all be saved and come to repentence? does that sound like limted salvation?
What about all those who are weary come to me and I will give you rest? What about grace waS FEELY GVIEN FAITH NOT WORKS AND MOST IMPORTANTLY THE BLOOD THAT WAS SHED WAS IT SHED OFR ALL MANKIND FOR THE SALVATION OF ALL WHO WOULD RECIEVE IT OR THE SO CALLED ELECT?
I'm not speaking for Angela... but for me, sometimes during a conversation we meet people who are not in the convo to "hear" anything... they're just there to shout their "truth", and pummel others into hearing their message. They're minds and hearts are long past the place to be teachable themselves.
Also, their part of the conversation... their message, is so far of base that it would take a vast amount of time to even get real truth entered into the conversation. Not to mention that it's not our will or skill at conversation that enters into play where the Gospel message is concerned... it's the Holy Spirit the brings folks understanding. And if the person is so off base and also closed to learning anything... well, Scripture talks about folks like this. hardened hearts, and all.
Also, their part of the conversation... their message, is so far of base that it would take a vast amount of time to even get real truth entered into the conversation. Not to mention that it's not our will or skill at conversation that enters into play where the Gospel message is concerned... it's the Holy Spirit the brings folks understanding. And if the person is so off base and also closed to learning anything... well, Scripture talks about folks like this. hardened hearts, and all.
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And can you show me where Jesus gave any mention of how many or who could come to him? He is the truth the way and the life so what does he say about it? Can you show me where made such conditions that only the elect can be saved?
Because he himself says it then I accept it but if not then it is just left to interpretation and one could argue day and night but in the endJesus is the truth.
All I have seen him speak on the matter is is anyone who would recieve his message was saved
Because he himself says it then I accept it but if not then it is just left to interpretation and one could argue day and night but in the endJesus is the truth.
All I have seen him speak on the matter is is anyone who would recieve his message was saved
This is what I am trying to say, the idea of limited salvation contradicts what Jesus himself says John 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Note what he said=whoever. and what was the condition? that we believe his words and in the one who sent him so if Jesus himself says how one is saved and gave no such conditions as you are suggesting then I think I can rely on his words.
He says it plain and simple no added conditions no choosing who can come to him or not.
Note what he said=whoever. and what was the condition? that we believe his words and in the one who sent him so if Jesus himself says how one is saved and gave no such conditions as you are suggesting then I think I can rely on his words.
He says it plain and simple no added conditions no choosing who can come to him or not.
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Google Chuck Smith and then Google Jesus Revolution. He is Calvary Chapel. It is a West coast, California Movement in the 70's and from that combination of Hippies and Chuck Smith Preaching, Calvary Chapel is the fastest growing Christian Movement in the past 50 years. Greg Laurie (also Associate Pastor to Billy Graham), Jack Ham, few others.
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Knowing Who is speaking in the various Psalms helps understand Their interactions with Each Other. Or does that even make it more difficult to comprehend? For example Psalm 2 is a conversation between Spirit and Son and Father with the Father being quoted.
Psalm 2
(Spirit speaking about the wicked)
2:1 Why do the nations rage,
and the peoples plot a vain thing?
2:2 The kings of the earth take a stand,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against YHVH, and against
His Anointed, (Mashiyach, Messiah) saying,
2:3 “Let’s break Their bonds apart,
and cast Their cords from us.”
(Spirit speaking about Father concerning the wicked)
2:4 He Who sits in the heavens will laugh.
'Adonay will have them in derision.
2:5 Then He will speak to them in His anger,
and terrify them in His wrath:
(Father speaking about Son)
2:6 “Yet I have set My King on My holy hill of Zion.”
(Son quotes Father talking to Him)
2:7 I will tell of the decree.
YHVH said to Me, “You are My Son.
Today I have become Your Father.
2:8 Ask of Me, and I will give
the nations for Your inheritance,
the uttermost parts of the earth for Your possession.
2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron.
You shall dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”
(Spirit speaking to people about Father and Son)
2:10 Now therefore be wise, you kings.
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
2:11 Serve YHVH with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
2:12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
and you perish in the way,
for His wrath will soon be kindled.
Blessed are all those who take refuge in Him.
Psalm 2
(Spirit speaking about the wicked)
2:1 Why do the nations rage,
and the peoples plot a vain thing?
2:2 The kings of the earth take a stand,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against YHVH, and against
His Anointed, (Mashiyach, Messiah) saying,
2:3 “Let’s break Their bonds apart,
and cast Their cords from us.”
(Spirit speaking about Father concerning the wicked)
2:4 He Who sits in the heavens will laugh.
'Adonay will have them in derision.
2:5 Then He will speak to them in His anger,
and terrify them in His wrath:
(Father speaking about Son)
2:6 “Yet I have set My King on My holy hill of Zion.”
(Son quotes Father talking to Him)
2:7 I will tell of the decree.
YHVH said to Me, “You are My Son.
Today I have become Your Father.
2:8 Ask of Me, and I will give
the nations for Your inheritance,
the uttermost parts of the earth for Your possession.
2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron.
You shall dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”
(Spirit speaking to people about Father and Son)
2:10 Now therefore be wise, you kings.
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
2:11 Serve YHVH with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
2:12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
and you perish in the way,
for His wrath will soon be kindled.
Blessed are all those who take refuge in Him.
E
Psalm 20 is the Holy Spirit speaking to the Son. As in other Psalms when the Spirit is speaking He uses "We" when referring to Himself. That is because He indwells believers Who He is praying for.
Psalm 20
For the Chief Musician. A Psalm by David.
(Spirit speaking to Son about Father)
20:1 May YHVH answer You in the day of trouble.
May the Name of the 'Elohiym of Jacob
set You up on high,
20:2 send You help from the sanctuary,
grant You support from Zion,
20:3 remember all Your offerings,
and accept Your burnt sacrifice.
Selah.
20:4 May He grant You Your heart’s desire,
and fulfill all Your plans.
20:5 We will triumph in Your Salvation. (Yĕshuw`ah)
In the Name of our 'Elohiym, we will set up our banners.
May YHVH grant all Your requests.
20:6 Now I know that YHVH saves
His Anointed (Mashiyach, Messiah).
He will answer Him from His holy heaven,
with the saving strength of His right hand.
20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses,
but we trust the Name of YHVH our 'Elohiym.
20:8 they are bowed down and fallen,
but we rise up, and stand upright.
20:9 Save, YHVH!
Let the King answer us when we call!
Psalm 20
For the Chief Musician. A Psalm by David.
(Spirit speaking to Son about Father)
20:1 May YHVH answer You in the day of trouble.
May the Name of the 'Elohiym of Jacob
set You up on high,
20:2 send You help from the sanctuary,
grant You support from Zion,
20:3 remember all Your offerings,
and accept Your burnt sacrifice.
Selah.
20:4 May He grant You Your heart’s desire,
and fulfill all Your plans.
20:5 We will triumph in Your Salvation. (Yĕshuw`ah)
In the Name of our 'Elohiym, we will set up our banners.
May YHVH grant all Your requests.
20:6 Now I know that YHVH saves
His Anointed (Mashiyach, Messiah).
He will answer Him from His holy heaven,
with the saving strength of His right hand.
20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses,
but we trust the Name of YHVH our 'Elohiym.
20:8 they are bowed down and fallen,
but we rise up, and stand upright.
20:9 Save, YHVH!
Let the King answer us when we call!
E
Psalm 21 is the Spirit speaking to the Father about the Son and to the Son about His victory over the wicked according to the Father's will. The Son accomplishes His Father's will in complete obedience to the Father.
Psalm 21
For the Chief Musician. A Psalm by David.
(Spirit to Father about Son)
21:1 The King rejoices in Your strength, YHVH!
How greatly He rejoices in Your Salvation! (Yĕshuw`ah)
21:2 You have given Him His heart’s desire,
and have not withheld the request of His lips.
Selah.
21:3 For You meet Him with the blessings of goodness.
You set a crown of fine gold on His head.
21:4 He asked life of You, You gave it to Him,
even length of days forever and ever.
21:5 His Glory is Great in Your Salvation. (Yĕshuw`ah)
You lay Honor and Majesty on Him.
21:6 For You make Him Most Blessed forever.
You make Him glad with joy in Your presence.
21:7 For the King trusts in YHVH.
Through the mercy of the Most High ('Elyown),
He shall not be moved.
(Spirit speaking to Son concerning the wicked)
21:8 Your Hand will find out all of Your enemies.
Your Right Hand will find out those who hate You.
21:9 You will make them as a fiery furnace
in the time of Your anger.
YHVH will swallow them up in His wrath.
The fire shall devour them.
21:10 You will destroy their descendants from the earth,
their posterity from among the children of men.
21:11 For they intended evil against You.
They plotted evil against You which cannot succeed.
21:12 For You will make them turn their back,
when You aim drawn bows at their face.
21:13 Be exalted, YHVH, in Your strength,
so we will sing and praise Your power.
Psalm 21
For the Chief Musician. A Psalm by David.
(Spirit to Father about Son)
21:1 The King rejoices in Your strength, YHVH!
How greatly He rejoices in Your Salvation! (Yĕshuw`ah)
21:2 You have given Him His heart’s desire,
and have not withheld the request of His lips.
Selah.
21:3 For You meet Him with the blessings of goodness.
You set a crown of fine gold on His head.
21:4 He asked life of You, You gave it to Him,
even length of days forever and ever.
21:5 His Glory is Great in Your Salvation. (Yĕshuw`ah)
You lay Honor and Majesty on Him.
21:6 For You make Him Most Blessed forever.
You make Him glad with joy in Your presence.
21:7 For the King trusts in YHVH.
Through the mercy of the Most High ('Elyown),
He shall not be moved.
(Spirit speaking to Son concerning the wicked)
21:8 Your Hand will find out all of Your enemies.
Your Right Hand will find out those who hate You.
21:9 You will make them as a fiery furnace
in the time of Your anger.
YHVH will swallow them up in His wrath.
The fire shall devour them.
21:10 You will destroy their descendants from the earth,
their posterity from among the children of men.
21:11 For they intended evil against You.
They plotted evil against You which cannot succeed.
21:12 For You will make them turn their back,
when You aim drawn bows at their face.
21:13 Be exalted, YHVH, in Your strength,
so we will sing and praise Your power.
E
Verses from the Gospel of John that may apply to the discussion. From HNV version with edits.
Chapter 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with YAH, and the Word was YAH. 2 The same was in the beginning with YAH. 3 All things were made through Him. Without Him, nothing was made that has been made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
14 The Word became flesh and lived among us. We saw His glory, such glory as of the only born Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.
18 No one has seen YAH at any time. The only born Son, Who is in the bosom of the Father, has declared Him.
32 John(the Baptist) testified, saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending like a dove out of heaven, and it remained on Him. 33 I didn’t recognize Him, but He Who sent me to immerse in water said to me, ‘On Whomever you will see the Spirit descending and remaining on Him is He Who immerses in the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I have seen and have testified that this is the Son of YAH.”
Chapter 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with YAH, and the Word was YAH. 2 The same was in the beginning with YAH. 3 All things were made through Him. Without Him, nothing was made that has been made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
14 The Word became flesh and lived among us. We saw His glory, such glory as of the only born Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.
18 No one has seen YAH at any time. The only born Son, Who is in the bosom of the Father, has declared Him.
32 John(the Baptist) testified, saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending like a dove out of heaven, and it remained on Him. 33 I didn’t recognize Him, but He Who sent me to immerse in water said to me, ‘On Whomever you will see the Spirit descending and remaining on Him is He Who immerses in the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I have seen and have testified that this is the Son of YAH.”
Because I know that I know that I know that I have the Holy Ghost; since I have fulfilled the condition of the promise in Acts 2:38-39, I would say that it is those who have not fulfilled that condition who would be off-base; since they have natural minds that cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God.
As for me, I am willing to change my point of view in the instance that I am shown viable scripture that contradicts my point of view.
And also, even if I weren't open to change, wouldn't it be the only right thing to defend the truth against someone who, in your opinion, is preaching heresy?
Isn't that what Apologetics is all about?
As for me, I am willing to change my point of view in the instance that I am shown viable scripture that contradicts my point of view.
And also, even if I weren't open to change, wouldn't it be the only right thing to defend the truth against someone who, in your opinion, is preaching heresy?
Isn't that what Apologetics is all about?
E
John Chapter 3
13 No one has ascended into heaven but He Who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, Who is in heaven. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For YAH so loved the world, that He gave His only born Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For YAH didn’t send His Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the Name of the only born Son of YAH.
34 For He Whom YAH has sent speaks the words of YAH; for YAH gives the Spirit without measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of YAH remains on him.”
13 No one has ascended into heaven but He Who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, Who is in heaven. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For YAH so loved the world, that He gave His only born Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For YAH didn’t send His Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the Name of the only born Son of YAH.
34 For He Whom YAH has sent speaks the words of YAH; for YAH gives the Spirit without measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of YAH remains on him.”
I'm in agreement with you. Jesus said that whoever comes to Him He will in no wise cast out (John 6:37).
It's like you see a door and written on the top it says, "Whosoever will, let him come."
You open the door and walk in, and find a table set and a nametag with your name at a specific place at the table. You look back at the door and it says, "predestined from before the foundations of the world".
It takes entering in through the door to know whether you are predestined.
Before then, it is presented to you as a choice.
It's like you see a door and written on the top it says, "Whosoever will, let him come."
You open the door and walk in, and find a table set and a nametag with your name at a specific place at the table. You look back at the door and it says, "predestined from before the foundations of the world".
It takes entering in through the door to know whether you are predestined.
Before then, it is presented to you as a choice.