problem related to praying in tongues

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hornetguy

hornetguy

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Inquisitor said:
Mark 16:2
And very early on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.
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Greek to English direct translation.... , unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. "

Young's literal translation "2 and early in the morning of the first of the sabbaths, they come unto the sepulchre, at the rising of the sun"

Authorized King James "2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. "
 
I

Inquisitor

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#522
hornetguy said:
Greek to English direct translation.... , unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. "

Young's literal translation "2 and early in the morning of the first of the sabbaths, they come unto the sepulchre, at the rising of the sun"

Authorized King James "2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. "
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Most translations have 'after the sun had risen'.

There is a difference between being at the tomb in the dark, and leaving to visit the tomb after or during the sun rising.

John 20:1
Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark...
 
Magenta

Magenta

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Inquisitor said:
The New Testament was written by men, they had to remember the events, and what Jesus said.
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But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach
you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you. John 14:26
 
I

Inquisitor

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hornetguy said:
I think @wattie has you figured out. Go in peace. I am....
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The problem is @wattie departed.

It's not about me, it's about the variance in the gospel accounts.

The varying description amongst the gospel authors of the death and resurrection of Jesus. Is powerful proof that the scripture is not perfect. Jesus was perfect and His sacrifice was perfect, yet, mankind is imperfect.

I prefer the variance in the gospel accounts, four different sources from four different witnesses. Better than one uniform account copied four times. That's how we know that Jesus did, in fact, rise from that tomb.
 
I

Inquisitor

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Magenta said:
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach
you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you. John 14:26
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Is that talking about doctrine or is that talking about one or two angels at the tomb?
 
T

TheLearner

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Magenta said:
o_O:oops::rolleyes:

Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good. Anyone who does
what is good is from God. Anyone who does what is evil has not seen God.
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His letters were dealing with Gnosticism, like Christian Science cult today.
 
wattie

wattie

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#530
Inquisitor said:
The problem is @wattie departed.

It's not about me, it's about the variance in the gospel accounts.

The varying description amongst the gospel authors of the death and resurrection of Jesus. Is powerful proof that the scripture is not perfect. Jesus was perfect and His sacrifice was perfect, yet, mankind is imperfect.

I prefer the variance in the gospel accounts, four different sources from four different witnesses. Better than one uniform account copied four times. That's how we know that Jesus did, in fact, rise from that tomb.
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Okay .. yes the variances prove the truthfulness of the accounts.. because if they were the same exactly...it would be copying and suspect.

Real accounts from the news come from different perspectives and they report slight differences from what they truthfully saw.

For eg.. a reporter sees a man and a dog

Another sees a crowd.

Both actually we're right...but one is emphasising something else.

The variances have been addressed. Just read The Case for Christ and Evidence that Demands a Verdict.

Also.. perfect in the Bible has a meaning of completeness and maturity in most cases.

That's the Greek behind the word perfect.

But the bible, in its original form is perfect in the sense of unblemished also.

End.
 
T

TheLearner

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The_Watchers_2017 said:
Doesn't matter, the Baptisms mentioned in both Mark Chapter 16 and Matthew 28 were ADDED in Later.
We have the proofs.
Even the Church Fathers mention it.
This is not a new concept just one many refuse to accept because Water Baptism completes their Religious Ritual.
Their RITUAL is more important than God's True Word!
You, give Proof to how important Your RITUAL is according to your views.

Whenever Jesus said, Your SINS are forgiven, Go and Sin NO MORE, we don't Read/ or See that Jesus Commands them to be Water Baptism. Their Sins are Forgiven and Jesus sends them on their way SAVED....NO Water Baptism!
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"Munnulus of Girba said: The truth of our Mother the Catholic Church, brethren, has always remained and still remains with us, and even especially in the Trinity of baptism, as our Lord says, Go and baptize the nations, in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19 Since, then, we manifestly know that heretics have not either Father, or Son, or Holy Spirit, they ought, when they come to the Church our Mother, truly to be born again and to be baptized; that the cancer which they had, and the anger of damnation, and the witchery of error, may be sanctified by the holy and heavenly layer. " https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0...w 28:19 Since, then,be sanctified by the holy

$19.99...
The apostles teach that it was neither Christ nor the Saviour, but the Holy Spirit, who did descend upon Jesus. The reason for this descent.
1. It certainly was in the power of the apostles to declare that Christ descended upon Jesus, or that the so-called superior Saviour [came down] upon the dispensational one, or he who is from the invisible places upon him from the Demiurge; but they neither knew nor said anything of the kind: for, had they known it, they would have also certainly stated it. But what really was the case, that did they record, [namely,] that the Spirit of God as a dove descended upon Him; this Spirit, of whom it was declared by Isaiah, And the Spirit of God shall rest upon Him, Isaiah 11:2 as I have already said. And again: The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me. Isaiah 61:1 That is the Spirit of whom the Lord declares, For it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you. Matthew 10:20 And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God, He said to them, Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Matthew 28:19 For [God] promised, that in the last times He would pour Him [the Spirit] upon [His] servants and handmaids, that they might prophesy; wherefore He did also descend upon the Son of God, made the Son of man, becoming accustomed in fellowship with Him to dwell in the human race, to rest with human beings, and to dwell in the workmanship of God, working the will of the Father in them, and renewing them from their old habits into the newness of Christ.
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103317.htm
 
T

TheLearner

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Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm
Chapter 9. Concerning Faith and Baptism.
We confess one baptism for the remission of sins and for life eternal. For baptism declares the Lord's death. We are indeed buried with the Lord through baptism Colossians 2:12, as says the divine Apostle. So then, as our Lord died once for all, we also must be baptized once for all, and baptized according to the Word of the Lord, In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit Matthew 28:19, being taught the confession in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Those , then, who, after having been baptized into Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and having been taught that there is one divine nature in three subsistences, are rebaptized, these, as the divine Apostle says, crucify the Christ afresh. For it is impossible, he says, for those who were once enlightened, etc., to renew them again unto repentance: seeing they crucify to themselves the Christ afresh, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4 But those who were not baptized into the Holy Trinity, these must be baptized again. For although the divine Apostle says: Into Christ and into His death were we baptized Romans 6:3, he does not mean that the invocation of baptism must be in these words, but that baptism is an image of the death of Christ. For by the three immersions , baptism signifies the three days of our Lord's entombment. The baptism then into Christ means that believers are baptized into Him. We could not believe in Christ if we were not taught confession in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. For Christ is the Son of the Living God Matthew 16:16, Whom the Father anointed with the Holy Spirit Acts 10:38: in the words of the divine David, Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows. And Isaiah also speaking in the person of the Lord says, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because He has anointed me. Isaiah 61:1 Christ, however, taught His own disciples the invocation and said, Baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19 For since Christ made us for incorruption , and we transgressed His saving command, He condemned us to the corruption of death in order that that which is evil should not be immortal, and when in His compassion He stooped to His servants and became like us, He redeemed us from corruption through His own passion. He caused the fountain of remission to well forth for us out of His holy and immaculate side John 19:34, water for our regeneration, and the washing away of sin and corruption; and blood to drink as the hostage of life eternal. And He laid on us the command to be born again of water and of the Spirit , through prayer and invocation, the Holy Spirit drawing near unto the water. For since man's nature is twofold, consisting of soul and body, He bestowed on us a twofold purification, of water and of the Spirit: the Spirit renewing that part in us which is after His image and likeness, and the water by the grace of the Spirit cleansing the body from sin and delivering it from corruption, the water indeed expressing the image of death, but the Spirit affording the earnest of life.
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/33044.htm
 
T

TheLearner

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Is it not rather he who is aware that he once lived within and was thrust out, that (probably) found the door and knocked thereat? In like manner, Ask, and you shall receive, Matthew 7:7 is suitably said to one who was aware from whom he ought to ask — by whom also some promise had been given; that is to say, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob. Now, the Gentiles knew nothing either of Him, or of any of His promises. Therefore it was to Israel that he spoke when He said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matthew 15:24 Not yet had He cast to the dogs the children's bread; not yet did He charge them to go into the way of the Gentiles. Matthew 10:5 It is only at the last that He instructs them to go and teach all nations, and baptize them, Matthew 28:19 when they were so soon to receive the Holy Ghost, the Comforter, who should guide them into all the truth. John 16:13 And this, too, makes towards the same conclusion. If the apostles, who were ordained to be teachers to the Gentiles, were themselves to have the Comforter for their teacher, far more needless was it to say to us, Seek, and you shall find, to whom was to come, without research, our instruction by the apostles, and to the apostles themselves by the Holy Ghost. All the Lord's sayings, indeed, are set forth for all men; through the ears of the Jews have they passed on to us. Still most of them were addressed to Jewish persons; they therefore did not constitute instruction properly designed for ourselves, but rather an example.
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0311.htm
 
T

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He was like us in all things, in that He took upon Him manhood in its entirety with soul and body, so that our salvation was accomplished by means of both:— He, I say, appeared on earth and conversed with men Baruch 3:37, that men might no longer have opinions according to their own notions about the Self-existent, formulating into a doctrine the hints that come to them from vague conjectures, but that we might be convinced that God has truly been manifested in the flesh, and believe that to be the only true mystery of godliness 1 Timothy 3:16, which was delivered to us by the very Word and God, Who by Himself spoke to His Apostles, and that we might receive the teaching concerning the transcendent nature of the Deity which is given to us, as it were, through a glass darkly 1 Corinthians 13:12 from the older Scriptures, — from the Law, and the Prophets, and the Sapiential Books, as an evidence of the truth fully revealed to us, reverently accepting the meaning of the things which have been spoken, so as to accord in the faith set forth by the Lord of the whole Scriptures , which faith we guard as we received it, word for word, in purity, without falsification, judging even a slight divergence from the words delivered to us an extreme blasphemy and impiety. We believe, then, even as the Lord set forth the Faith to His Disciples, when He said, Go, teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost Matthew 28:19 . This is the word of the mystery whereby through the new birth from above our nature is transformed from the corruptible to the incorruptible, being renewed from the old man, according to the image of Him who created at the beginning the likeness to the Godhead. In the Faith then which was delivered by God to the Apostles we admit neither subtraction, nor alteration, nor addition, knowing assuredly that he who presumes to pervert the Divine utterance by dishonest quibbling, the same is of his father the devil, who leaves the words of truth and speaks of his own, becoming the father of a lie. John 8:44 For whatsoever is said otherwise than in exact accord with the truth is assuredly false and not true. https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/290102.htm
 
T

TheLearner

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71. But who can separate what is incapable of separation? Who can divide that association which Christ shows to be inseparable? Go, says He, baptize all nations in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19 Has He changed either a word or a syllable here concerning the Father or the Son or the Holy Spirit? Certainly not. But He says, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. The expression is the same for the Spirit as for the Father and for Himself. From which is inferred not any office of the Holy Spirit, but rather a sharing of honour or of working when we say in the Spirit.
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/34022.htm

3. Let us then ask Christ Himself, and learn from His own mouth, what is the chief means of our salvation. Who shall enter, O Christ, into Your kingdom? He that does the will of my Father in heaven, Matthew 7:21 is His reply; not, "He that confesses that I was born." And again, He says to His disciples, "Go, teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things which I have commanded you." Matthew 28:19-20 It is not, "teaching them that I was born," but, "to observe my commandments." Again, "You are my friends if you do what I command you;" John 15:14 not, "if you believe that I was born." Again, "If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love," John 15:10 and in many other places. Also in the sermon on the mount, when He taught, "Blessed are the poor, blessed are the meek, blessed are the peacemakers, blessed are the pure in heart, blessed are they that mourn, blessed are they that hunger, blessed are they that are persecuted for righteousness' sake," Matthew 5:3-10 He nowhere says, "Blessed are they that confess that I was born." And in the separation of the sheep from the goats in the judgment, He says that He will say to them on the right hand, "I was hungry, and you gave me meat; I was thirsty, and you gave me drink," Matthew 25:35 and so on; therefore "inherit the kingdom." Not, "Because ye believe that I was born, inherit the kingdom." Again, to the rich man seeking for eternal life, He says, "Go, sell all that you have, and follow me;" Matthew 19:21 not, "Believe that I was born, that you may have eternal life." You see, the kingdom, life, happiness, are everywhere promised to the part I have chosen of what you call the two parts of faith, and nowhere to your part. Show, if you can, a place where it is written that whoever confesses that Christ was born of a woman is blessed, or shall inherit the kingdom, or have eternal life. Even supposing, then, that there are two parts of faith, your part has no blessing. But what if we prove that your part is not a part of faith at all? It will follow that you are foolish, which indeed will be proved beyond a doubt. At present, it is enough to have shown that our part is crowned with the beatitudes. Besides, we have also a beatitude for a confession in words: for we confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God; and Jesus declares with His own lips that this confession has a benediction, when He says to Peter, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona; for flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you, but my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 16:7 So that we have not one, but both these parts of faith, and in both alike are we pronounced blessed by Christ; for in one we reduce faith to practice, while in the other our confession is unmixed with blasphemy.
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/140605.htm
 
T

TheLearner

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hornetguy said:
Actually, when Jesus was teaching, his disciples WERE baptizing people.
I do agree that there was no indwelling by the Spirit until Pentecost....
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John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
The Apostles were indwelt at that time.

https://www.gotquestions.org/indwelling-of-the-Holy-Spirit.html
Ezekiel 36:27
Verse Concepts
I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Indwelling-Of-The-Holy-Spirit
Psalm 51:11 ESV / 11 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
https://www.openbible.info/topics/holy_spirit_indwelling
 
Kavik

Kavik

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posthuman said:
Was the number of dialects less than or equal to 12 (11) or more than 12 (11)?

the miracle in Acts seems to me to be much more likely to be in the hearing than the speaking - which doesn't discount the gift of tongues, but possibly comments on it.
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Not really going to get into this thread much - as a linguist, I have a very strong view of 'tongues-speech', and there are other threads where I go into it in some detail.

But just just something to ponder....in the entire Pentecost narrative, not one language is ever referenced by name. The so-called "list of Nations" in vv. 9-11 is just that; a list of geographical places; not a list of languages.
 
hornetguy

hornetguy

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Kavik said:
But just just something to ponder....in the entire Pentecost narrative, not one language is ever referenced by name. The so-called "list of Nations" in vv. 9-11 is just that; a list of geographical places; not a list of languages.
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I probably won't ponder too long on that.... I'm sort of a K.I.S.S. kind of guy... if the word says, each of them heard and understood in their own language, then it lists all the places they were from...?? That pretty much tells me that each country had it's own language, and each person from that country heard it in that language.
That's the same as listing the languages...

But, again, I try to not overcomplicate things. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...... it's not a pigeon.

well, I suppose it could be a pentecostal pigeon... :ROFL: c'mon, you gotta laugh at that.... :LOL:
 
Kavik

Kavik

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hornetguy said:
I probably won't ponder too long on that.... I'm sort of a K.I.S.S. kind of guy... if the word says, each of them heard and understood in their own language, then it lists all the places they were from...?? That pretty much tells me that each country had it's own language, and each person from that country heard it in that language.
That's the same as listing the languages...

But, again, I try to not overcomplicate things. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...... it's not a pigeon.

well, I suppose it could be a pentecostal pigeon... :ROFL: c'mon, you gotta laugh at that.... :LOL:
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Given the list of nations, we know that the Jews gathered in Jerusalem for Pentecost came from one of three places Judea, the Western Diaspora, and the Eastern Diaspora. You have to ask yourself, if I were a Jew living in one of these places in the 1st century, what would be my native language - the language "wherein I was born", the language of hearth and home? The answer may surprise you.
 
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