Has the pre trib rapture belief alienated a whole group of people against each other

[AndyC]

Without the book of Daniel, how would we know that the AC will rise in the end times out of the ten kingdoms, and subdue a few kingdoms, and create the final OWG beast system? We can know this by studying scripture, but really, it wont matter to me, I will be in heaven along with all the other believers well before the beast hits the scene.

 

[AndyC]

Soon enough, the serious-and-honest bible student discovers that there are many things they have been assuming/believing that simply are not in the Bible.

Exactly, could not agree more. See, we can agree…

 

[Beckie]

Without the book of Daniel, how would we know that the AC will rise in the end times out of the ten kingdoms, and subdue a few kingdoms, and create the final OWG beast system? We can know this by studying scripture, but really, it wont matter to me, I will be in heaven along with all the other believers well before the beast hits the scene.

Where does the Book of Daniel speak of the AC?

 

[AndyC]

Where does the Book of Daniel speak of the AC?

Daniel 7 below - also Daniel 2, and Daniel 9

Daniel 7 19 “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke [i]pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.
23 “Thus he said:
‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[j] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

 

[Marilyn]

From this video it looks like Christians who don't believe in a pre trib rapture are also seen as no good 😟

People are NOT going to know that billions of Christians have gone. How many people will know if YOU had been taken? Only a few. And if many so called believers are not eagerly awaiting the Lord they will not be ready. Plus there will be the war in the mountains of Israel where God deals with the northern army. So people will be glued to their T.V. etc

There are many people missing daily and moving house and being killed, that some believers not there will not be a big thing. Families may only think they had gone on a holiday or are just missing.

 

[GaryA]

If these two ideas were not biblical you would not have so many Bible scholars and Christians accepting them.

Can a million/billion Catholics or Muslims be wrong?

Can you think of any idea that "many Bible scholars and Christians" accept that you think is wrong?

(Oh, come on - no doubt you can come up with at least one.)

Why would you think that the 'pre-trib' idea is any different?

It is because you believe in it. And, you are not thinking clearly.

Unless someone "worships" the 'pre-trib' idea/view - making it 'untouchable' - they will give it just as much scrutiny as anything else in scripture.

There is absolutely NO HISTORICAL EVIDENCE that Daniel 9:24 has been actually fulfilled.

Sure there is - it is ever-present in the detailed account of the ministry of Christ in the scriptures - and, 'spritually' discerned.

Also, the 'pre-trib' view makes an erroneous misrepresentation of the context and [certain] words in [certain] verses/passages.

 

[Beckie]

Daniel 7 below - also Daniel 2, and Daniel 9

Daniel 7 19 “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke [i]pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.
23 “Thus he said:
‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[j] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

Not there you say it is talking about AC but the Scriptures dont say that .

 

[GaryA]

I do not believe in pre trib rapture . I do not believe it is, or is not, a understanding unto Salvation . It is the way some folks see the scriptures . Having verbal battles amongst fellow Christians should not lead to dislike .... after the dust has settled. When i understood and accepted pretrib rapture i was saved i am still saved.

No one should ever consider anything in eschatology to be a requirement or prerequisite for salvation. Nor should they allow any discussion about eschatology to escalate any anger/etc. within them toward other participants in the discussion to the point that it becomes a bona fide shouting-match argument. There is no cause for that. We should always frame our discussions from an 'edification of the saints' intent.

 

[GaryA]

Nor should they allow any discussion about eschatology to escalate any anger/etc. within them toward other participants in the discussion

In fact, nothing like this should ever occur in the first place.

 

[AndyC]

No one should ever consider anything in eschatology to be a requirement or prerequisite for salvation. Nor should they allow any discussion about eschatology to escalate any anger/etc. within them toward other participants in the discussion to the point that it becomes a bona fide shouting-match argument. There is no cause for that. We should always frame our discussions from an 'edification of the saints' intent.

That is not what you have shown to me, but I appreciate the comment. I said a few days ago up thread, its not a salvation issue, and with this post, I will depart this forum and return to my own.

God bless all!

 

[GaryA]

That is not what you have shown to me, but I appreciate the comment. I said a few days ago up thread, its not a salvation issue, and with this post, I will depart this forum and return to my own.

God bless all!

The post you quoted was expressed "to the crowd" in general.

Where is it that you think I departed from what I said in that post?

I don't see how any of what I said in that post fits anything I have posted.

 

[GaryA]

That is not what you have shown to me, but I appreciate the comment. I said a few days ago up thread, its not a salvation issue, and with this post, I will depart this forum and return to my own.

God bless all!

Are you leaving because you cannot give an answer to Beckie?

I would be more than happy to stay out of the thread for a while so you can continue your discussion with Beckie without distraction - if it will help...

 

[GaryA]

That is not what you have shown to me, but I appreciate the comment. I said a few days ago up thread, its not a salvation issue, and with this post, I will depart this forum and return to my own.

God bless all!

In no way whatsoever was what I said in the post you quoted directed towards you with regard to any earlier post that you have made.

 

[GaryA]

Sorry @Beckie - I didn't mean to chase him off - I was really hoping to see how your discussion with him turned out...

 

[Beckie]

Sorry @Beckie - I didn't mean to chase him off - I was really hoping to see how your discussion with him turned out...

Took some years for me to unlearn dispensationalism . Pre trib rapture is the happy ever after story. Like the glass slipper fitting.

 

[GaryA]

Took some years for me to unlearn dispensationalism . Pre trib rapture is the happy ever after story. Like the glass slipper fitting.

While there are a few exceptions here and there, most 'pre-trib' folks have never seen anything but that - they "learned it from birth" or some such thing, and it is all they have ever known. They don't realize that those of us who have gotten away from the 'pre-trib' view where once there - right where they are now. And, we can see it from two opposing perspectives while they have only ever seen it from one. Yet, they think we are crazy for trying to get them to let go of what they are hanging onto so tightly - long enough to give them the opportunity to see what we can see that they have never seen.

It is like trying to rescue someone from the MATRIX and they don't want to leave it!

Based on your experience - would you say that there is some kind of psychological "mind trap" associated with and connected to the 'pre-trib' view that works against you "finding your way out of that maze" or some similar thing? What would you say is the one thing that most keeps a person locked into that view - not willing to let go of it no-matter-what? Is it simply the happy-ever-after story? Or, does it go deeper than that? How do you see it?

 

[Beckie]

While there are a few exceptions here and there, most 'pre-trib' folks have never seen anything but that - they "learned it from birth" or some such thing, and it is all they have ever known. They don't realize that those of us who have gotten away from the 'pre-trib' view where once there - right where they are now. And, we can see it from two opposing perspectives while they have only ever seen it from one. Yet, they think we are crazy for trying to get them to let go of what they are hanging onto so tightly - long enough to give them the opportunity to see what we can see that they have never seen.

It is like trying to rescue someone from the MATRIX and they don't want to leave it!

Based on your experience - would you say that there is some kind of psychological "mind trap" associated with and connected to the 'pre-trib' view that works against you "finding your way out of that maze" or some similar thing? What would you say is the one thing that most keeps a person locked into that view - not willing to let go of it no-matter-what? Is it simply the happy-ever-after story? Or, does it go deeper than that? How do you see it?

I was raised in it. Maybe you have not seen some of my posts . Dad and his dad both AofG pastors i grew up thinking Scofield's notes were Scripture because they were printed on the pages of mom and dads Bibles. Over the later years of Dad's life the Lights came on Had he not come to see things differently the transition would have been much more difficult. As Christian kids you really dont want to think you Christian parents could be mistaken about Scripture. When we look back if we care to we can see God's mighty wonderful hand in many things in our lives putting the puzzle pieces together. Like every body says I prayed God open my eyes anew let me learn.

 

[GaryA]

The only 'tribulation' [period] that can be "properly-framed" as a 'dispensation' has the time span from the Resurrection of Christ at His first coming until His return at His second coming - the beginning of the Millennium - which would, at best, be the next 'dispensation'. The initial time frame indicated cannot be broken into smaller pieces and be biblical. The idea of a 7-year 'tribulation' [period] being defined as a 'dispensation' is not valid.

And, when you learn this, and understand perfectly that all 'tribulation' that Christians will experience is included in this one-and-only very-same span of time...

And, when you realize that the "souls under the altar" and/with those "that should be killed as they were" are all in the same group of "tribulation saints"...

And, when you understand why Revelation 13:7 is past history while Revelation 13:8 is yet future...

--- you will understand biblical prophecy and the End Times Scenario a whole lot better than you do now.

 

[GaryA]

I was raised in it. Maybe you have not seen some of my posts . Dad and his dad both AofG pastors i grew up thinking Scofield's notes were Scripture because they were printed on the pages of mom and dads Bibles. Over the later years of Dad's life the Lights came on Had he not come to see things differently the transition would have been much more difficult. As Christian kids you really dont want to think you Christian parents could be mistaken about Scripture. When we look back if we care to we can see God's mighty wonderful hand in many things in our lives putting the puzzle pieces together. Like every body says I prayed God open my eyes anew let me learn.

So, it is simply a matter of human nature - we just don't like to change what we think, believe, do, etc.?

 

[Beckie]

So, it is simply a matter of human nature - we just don't like to change what we think, believe, do, etc.?

As we go to church wiht our parents we are not taught other view points. Then, the Left Behind cheap books and movies are in our heads . How many take the time to grasp how far off in timing they were . We remember quickly Al Gore being off about the climate but not the scary preacher guy.