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Good morning, StillLearning .
. Your answer was very well thought out, well put together, and not convoluted at all! You expressed quite eloquently what I have been attempting to say, which is to say, that the identification of wheat or tares has to do with one's spiritual standing before God, as either one of His children through the new birth, which is available to all and activated by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ, or that of still being of the natural world, God's enemy, and hostile towards Him. Thank you as always for the time and consideration you have taken to contribute to this conversation. I hope you are well .
The conclusion of all this is, if a tare could not become a wheat, we would all be doomed.
. Your answer was very well thought out, well put together, and not convoluted at all! You expressed quite eloquently what I have been attempting to say, which is to say, that the identification of wheat or tares has to do with one's spiritual standing before God, as either one of His children through the new birth, which is available to all and activated by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ, or that of still being of the natural world, God's enemy, and hostile towards Him. Thank you as always for the time and consideration you have taken to contribute to this conversation. I hope you are well .The conclusion of all this is, if a tare could not become a wheat, we would all be doomed.
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Maybe this one-eyed fellow can make you see, despite you having two good eyes.
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/cliffside/sermons/series/2040/
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/cliffside/sermons/series/2040/
The words the Bible uses.
Apollumi: Strongs Concordance # 622
Apollumi: Strongs Concordance # 622
Everything that's what. Evidently you missed this critical teaching.
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/cliffside/sermons/12711256377/
Gen 2:9
And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Gen 2:16
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:24
yea, he casteth out the man, and causeth to dwell at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flame of the sword which is turning itself round to guard the way of the tree of life.
To PREVENT Adam and Eve from eating from it.....
There is no OT scripture telling us that man is alive after our earthly death, it only speaks of earthly death as sleeping. The first that we are told that we live after earthly death is in Matthew 27:51 " Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. "
Scripture does not explain just what Christ did those three days so we are forgiven our sins, and there is no more need for sacrificing lambs, but only that is what he did those three days, Col. 2:13 "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[d] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Scripture does not explain just what Christ did those three days so we are forgiven our sins, and there is no more need for sacrificing lambs, but only that is what he did those three days, Col. 2:13 "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[d] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Len's answer. -- Of necessity I am afraid this answer is a bit lengthy.
HELL
We are told only a little (that is; what is necessary for us to know) about Heaven & Hell in the Bible.
We must remember here that the Scriptures were written in the language of the people of the day. Words had to be used that the people were capable of understanding. What good would it have been in Moses day to speak of atoms, aircraft, computers, D.N.A. etc. They could not have understood such concepts. Nor could they understand the concept of different dimensions. So God had the prophets speak of Heaven as a place above the clouds and Hell as a place beneath or at the centre of the Earth. The fact is; they are spiritual dimensions. Heaven is easier for us to comprehend, probably because the thought of it is more pleasant. We know it to be the place of God’s throne, the dwelling place of God and His angels. We must at this point remember that God is an Omni-present Spirit.
Psalm 139;7-12,reads;
Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
If I ascend into heaven,You are there;
If I make my bed in hell,(Sheol)behold,You are there.
If I take the wings of the morning,
And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.
If I say,“Surely the darkness shall fall on me,”
Even the night shall be light about me;
Indeed,the darkness shall not hide from You,
But the night shines as the day;
The darkness and the light are both alike to You.
We see from the above that God is everywhere. He cannot be restricted to any one place or time. Though God is in heaven all the time, He is also everywhere else all the time. So we cannot think of Heaven or Hell as being fixed to any sort of geographical location. They are in a spiritual realm or dimension.
So let us look at the subject of Hell.
Unfortunately the translators of the K.J.V. translated a number of different words as Hell, some of which had different meanings. This problem has carried over to the N.K.J.V. and has caused considerable confusion and misunderstanding.
They are;
From the Hebrew Old Testament ‘Sheol’ & from the Greek New Testament ‘Hades’. Both mean literally, ‘The unseen world’ or ‘The Chamber’ or ‘Abode of the dead’. It is the place of disembodied spirits. However the K.J.V. has translated Sheol 31 times as Hell, 31 times as Grave and 3 times as Pit. Whereas Pit can be a suitable word for Sheol, it should never be translated as Grave. The grave is a totally different place to Sheol.
The Hebrew word Qeber and the Greek word Mnēmeion are the words for grave, sepulchre, tomb or equivalent and as it happens whenever Qeber or Mnēmeion appear in the K.J.V. & the N.K.J.V. they have been correctly translated, except in the N.K.J.V. in Prov.1:12., ‘grave’ has been wrongly translated as ‘Sheol’.
Gehenna- A name that Jesus Himself gave to symbolise ‘The Lake of Fire’,which is mentioned again in Revelation. This word appears 12 times in the New Testament, all but one of which was uttered by Jesus Himself. Jesus took the name from the rubbish tip “Ge-Hinnom” just outside Jerusalem which was continuously kept burning, for He saw it as a fitting way to describe the Eternal Lake Of Fire mentioned in other places, such as Mat 13:42,50,and Mat.25:41,46.Rev.19:20,&20:10,14,15. Aside from Jas.3:6, all other references to Gehenna were by the Lord Himself.
The N.K.J.V. reads ‘Hell’ on the following 31 occasions; The correct title is shown on its right.
Deut 32:22-----Sheol -The Hebrew equivalent of the Greek‘Hades’.
Ps 9:17----- ““
Ps 55:15---- ““
Ps 139:8----- ““
Pro 5:5---- ““
Pro 7:27----- ““
Pro 9:18----- ““
Pro 15:11----- ““
Pro 15:24----- ““
Pro 23:14----- ““
Pro 27:20----- ““
Isa 14:9----- ““
Eze 31:15----- ““
Eze 31:16---- ““
Eze 31:17----- ““
Eze 32:21----- ““
Eze 32:27---- ““
Amos 9:2----- ““
Hab 2:5---- ““
Mat 5:22-----Gehenna
Mat 5:29---- ““
Mat 5:30---- ““
Mat 10:28---- “”
Mat.18:9----- ““
Mat 23:15----- ““
Mat 23:33---- ““ These 11 quotes were all made by Jesus Himself.
Mk 9:43----- ““
Mk 9:45----- ““
Mk 9:47----- ““
Luke 12:5----- ““
Jas 3:6---- ““ ---- This usage by James.
The word ‘Abyss’ used on its own in Luke 8:31& Rom.10:7 refers to‘Sheol’.
The phrase‘Deepest Abyss’,translated as‘Bottomless Pit’, in the K.J.&N.K.J.V. refers to a temporary prison for the worst of the fallen angels, within a separated section of Sheol. - Also referred to as’,‘The pit or Shaft of the Abyss’, or‘Tartarus’. 2 Pet 2:4 Also mentioned in Rev.9:1,2,11.,11:7.,17:8.&20:1,3,where it has been translated as‘bottomless pit’.
It is that deepest, darkest part of Sheol/Hades that is reserved for the worst of the fallen angels.
It is an area that is separated from all other spirits.
Sheol- has been correctly translated as such in the following 18 occurrences in the N.K.J.V.
2 Sa 22:6/Job 11:8/Job 17:16/Job 26:6/Ps 16:10/Ps 18:5/Ps 86:13/Ps 116:3/Isa 5:14/
Isa 14:11/Isa 14:15/Isa 28:15/Isa 28:18/Isa 38:10/Isa 38:18/Isa 57:9/Jonah 2:2
Heart of the earth in Matt.12:40 and Lower parts of the earth in Ephe.4:9 are also references to Sheol.
Grave- has been wrongly translated as ‘Sheol’ in Prov.1:12. of the N.K.J.V.
Hades- is correctly translated as such in the following 11 occurrences in the N.K.J.V.
Mat 11:23&16:18/Lk 10:15&16:23/Acts 2:27&2:31/1 Cor 15:55/Rev 1:18&6:8/
Rev 20:13,14 Hades is the Greek word closest in meaning to the Hebrew ‘Sheol’, (The New Testament was first written in Greek).
Gehenna- on each of its 12 occurrences has always been translated as Hell.
Furnace of Fire- Mat.13:42,50, is another name for Gehenna.
Everlasting Fire&Eternal Punishment– Mat.25:41,46, are also other names for Gehenna.
If you take the trouble to mark all of these in your Bible, you will gain a clearer understanding as you read it.
The dimensions known as Sheol/Hades had three divisions.
Paradise or Abraham’s Bosom. For those who worshipped/served God. (Luke 16:22), where the saved waited for Jesus resurrection. Paradise was moved from Sheol to Heaven after Jesus Christ’s crucifixion. (Luke 23:43./Eph.4:8-10./Rev.2:7./Psm.68:18.)
Torments. For those who rejected God and His authority. A temporary holding place (Like a Remand Prison). There to be held till the final judgement. (Luke 16:23).
Deepest Abyss or Pit, Is reserved for Fallen angels who were guilty of great sin.
(Jude 6&2 Pet.2:4.)
-----------------------------
There are a number of verses which show an awareness of the spiritual realm by those in Sheol/Hades, but there are other verses such as Eccl.9:5,6&10., which show that there is no knowledge of what is happening amongst the living i.e. (under the sun). For those in Sheol their knowledge is limited to what goes on in their part of the spiritual realm and an obvious tormenting awareness of judgement to come. There is some degree of torment for the unsaved in Sheol but to what degree and whether it’s a mental type or in some way a material type we cannot be sure. The certainty is that whatever the torment, it is nothing compared to what awaits them in the Lake of Fire (Gehenna). When people today speak of Hell, the place most have in mind is Gehenna.
There is ample proof to show that the Bible writers and Jesus Christ believed in a literal Hell.
We need to look carefully at the words found in Mat.25:41,46 and Mark 9:47,48.
HELL
We are told only a little (that is; what is necessary for us to know) about Heaven & Hell in the Bible.
We must remember here that the Scriptures were written in the language of the people of the day. Words had to be used that the people were capable of understanding. What good would it have been in Moses day to speak of atoms, aircraft, computers, D.N.A. etc. They could not have understood such concepts. Nor could they understand the concept of different dimensions. So God had the prophets speak of Heaven as a place above the clouds and Hell as a place beneath or at the centre of the Earth. The fact is; they are spiritual dimensions. Heaven is easier for us to comprehend, probably because the thought of it is more pleasant. We know it to be the place of God’s throne, the dwelling place of God and His angels. We must at this point remember that God is an Omni-present Spirit.
Psalm 139;7-12,reads;
Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
If I ascend into heaven,You are there;
If I make my bed in hell,(Sheol)behold,You are there.
If I take the wings of the morning,
And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.
If I say,“Surely the darkness shall fall on me,”
Even the night shall be light about me;
Indeed,the darkness shall not hide from You,
But the night shines as the day;
The darkness and the light are both alike to You.
We see from the above that God is everywhere. He cannot be restricted to any one place or time. Though God is in heaven all the time, He is also everywhere else all the time. So we cannot think of Heaven or Hell as being fixed to any sort of geographical location. They are in a spiritual realm or dimension.
So let us look at the subject of Hell.
Unfortunately the translators of the K.J.V. translated a number of different words as Hell, some of which had different meanings. This problem has carried over to the N.K.J.V. and has caused considerable confusion and misunderstanding.
They are;
From the Hebrew Old Testament ‘Sheol’ & from the Greek New Testament ‘Hades’. Both mean literally, ‘The unseen world’ or ‘The Chamber’ or ‘Abode of the dead’. It is the place of disembodied spirits. However the K.J.V. has translated Sheol 31 times as Hell, 31 times as Grave and 3 times as Pit. Whereas Pit can be a suitable word for Sheol, it should never be translated as Grave. The grave is a totally different place to Sheol.
The Hebrew word Qeber and the Greek word Mnēmeion are the words for grave, sepulchre, tomb or equivalent and as it happens whenever Qeber or Mnēmeion appear in the K.J.V. & the N.K.J.V. they have been correctly translated, except in the N.K.J.V. in Prov.1:12., ‘grave’ has been wrongly translated as ‘Sheol’.
Gehenna- A name that Jesus Himself gave to symbolise ‘The Lake of Fire’,which is mentioned again in Revelation. This word appears 12 times in the New Testament, all but one of which was uttered by Jesus Himself. Jesus took the name from the rubbish tip “Ge-Hinnom” just outside Jerusalem which was continuously kept burning, for He saw it as a fitting way to describe the Eternal Lake Of Fire mentioned in other places, such as Mat 13:42,50,and Mat.25:41,46.Rev.19:20,&20:10,14,15. Aside from Jas.3:6, all other references to Gehenna were by the Lord Himself.
The N.K.J.V. reads ‘Hell’ on the following 31 occasions; The correct title is shown on its right.
Deut 32:22-----Sheol -The Hebrew equivalent of the Greek‘Hades’.
Ps 9:17----- ““
Ps 55:15---- ““
Ps 139:8----- ““
Pro 5:5---- ““
Pro 7:27----- ““
Pro 9:18----- ““
Pro 15:11----- ““
Pro 15:24----- ““
Pro 23:14----- ““
Pro 27:20----- ““
Isa 14:9----- ““
Eze 31:15----- ““
Eze 31:16---- ““
Eze 31:17----- ““
Eze 32:21----- ““
Eze 32:27---- ““
Amos 9:2----- ““
Hab 2:5---- ““
Mat 5:22-----Gehenna
Mat 5:29---- ““
Mat 5:30---- ““
Mat 10:28---- “”
Mat.18:9----- ““
Mat 23:15----- ““
Mat 23:33---- ““ These 11 quotes were all made by Jesus Himself.
Mk 9:43----- ““
Mk 9:45----- ““
Mk 9:47----- ““
Luke 12:5----- ““
Jas 3:6---- ““ ---- This usage by James.
The word ‘Abyss’ used on its own in Luke 8:31& Rom.10:7 refers to‘Sheol’.
The phrase‘Deepest Abyss’,translated as‘Bottomless Pit’, in the K.J.&N.K.J.V. refers to a temporary prison for the worst of the fallen angels, within a separated section of Sheol. - Also referred to as’,‘The pit or Shaft of the Abyss’, or‘Tartarus’. 2 Pet 2:4 Also mentioned in Rev.9:1,2,11.,11:7.,17:8.&20:1,3,where it has been translated as‘bottomless pit’.
It is that deepest, darkest part of Sheol/Hades that is reserved for the worst of the fallen angels.
It is an area that is separated from all other spirits.
Sheol- has been correctly translated as such in the following 18 occurrences in the N.K.J.V.
2 Sa 22:6/Job 11:8/Job 17:16/Job 26:6/Ps 16:10/Ps 18:5/Ps 86:13/Ps 116:3/Isa 5:14/
Isa 14:11/Isa 14:15/Isa 28:15/Isa 28:18/Isa 38:10/Isa 38:18/Isa 57:9/Jonah 2:2
Heart of the earth in Matt.12:40 and Lower parts of the earth in Ephe.4:9 are also references to Sheol.
Grave- has been wrongly translated as ‘Sheol’ in Prov.1:12. of the N.K.J.V.
Hades- is correctly translated as such in the following 11 occurrences in the N.K.J.V.
Mat 11:23&16:18/Lk 10:15&16:23/Acts 2:27&2:31/1 Cor 15:55/Rev 1:18&6:8/
Rev 20:13,14 Hades is the Greek word closest in meaning to the Hebrew ‘Sheol’, (The New Testament was first written in Greek).
Gehenna- on each of its 12 occurrences has always been translated as Hell.
Furnace of Fire- Mat.13:42,50, is another name for Gehenna.
Everlasting Fire&Eternal Punishment– Mat.25:41,46, are also other names for Gehenna.
If you take the trouble to mark all of these in your Bible, you will gain a clearer understanding as you read it.
-----------------------
The dimensions known as Sheol/Hades had three divisions.
Paradise or Abraham’s Bosom. For those who worshipped/served God. (Luke 16:22), where the saved waited for Jesus resurrection. Paradise was moved from Sheol to Heaven after Jesus Christ’s crucifixion. (Luke 23:43./Eph.4:8-10./Rev.2:7./Psm.68:18.)
Torments. For those who rejected God and His authority. A temporary holding place (Like a Remand Prison). There to be held till the final judgement. (Luke 16:23).
Deepest Abyss or Pit, Is reserved for Fallen angels who were guilty of great sin.
(Jude 6&2 Pet.2:4.)
-----------------------------
There are a number of verses which show an awareness of the spiritual realm by those in Sheol/Hades, but there are other verses such as Eccl.9:5,6&10., which show that there is no knowledge of what is happening amongst the living i.e. (under the sun). For those in Sheol their knowledge is limited to what goes on in their part of the spiritual realm and an obvious tormenting awareness of judgement to come. There is some degree of torment for the unsaved in Sheol but to what degree and whether it’s a mental type or in some way a material type we cannot be sure. The certainty is that whatever the torment, it is nothing compared to what awaits them in the Lake of Fire (Gehenna). When people today speak of Hell, the place most have in mind is Gehenna.
There is ample proof to show that the Bible writers and Jesus Christ believed in a literal Hell.
We need to look carefully at the words found in Mat.25:41,46 and Mark 9:47,48.
Because it says so explicitly in the verse itself. Quite unequivocally. Not that Jesus Himself was incarcerated there. Just a visitor.
1Pe 3:19
By G1722 which G3739 also G2532 he went G4198 and preached G2784 unto the spirits G4151 in G1722 prison; G5438
G5438 - phylakē - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)
1Pe 3:19
By G1722 which G3739 also G2532 he went G4198 and preached G2784 unto the spirits G4151 in G1722 prison; G5438
G5438 - phylakē - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)
You know, one thing I will say is there is what I have been taught and what I think, and there is what Jesus said to the thief :
Luke 23:43
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
In addition, Jesus also said Luke 23:46,
“Jesus called out with a loud voice, ‘Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.’ When he had said this, he breathed his last.”
So Jesus' body lay in a tomb, but HIS Spirit was in the Presence of the Father. Yet he preached to those in captivity or the abode of the dead. One thing we have an issue with is understanding God, who is limitless that HE can be all places and see all places.
Human reasoning wants to limit God so we can have an understanding of what the word of God means.
Things hard for the human intellect to understand :
For us, the issue is not the thief but the resurrection of the Lord. That is the Paramount of our faith." Let the dead bury the Dead."
There is, I believe, and I could be wrong, so please, this is only an opinion. Many things about death cannot be answered because they are in the context of faith and hope. We must live as close to the lord as possible and not wait until we are on the cross before death to accept Jesus as Lord. Today is the day of salvation.
Luke 23:43
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
In addition, Jesus also said Luke 23:46,
“Jesus called out with a loud voice, ‘Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.’ When he had said this, he breathed his last.”
So Jesus' body lay in a tomb, but HIS Spirit was in the Presence of the Father. Yet he preached to those in captivity or the abode of the dead. One thing we have an issue with is understanding God, who is limitless that HE can be all places and see all places.
Human reasoning wants to limit God so we can have an understanding of what the word of God means.
Things hard for the human intellect to understand :
- How was Jesus' body laid in a tomb but was with the Father and preaching to the captives ?
- How the Thief could be where Jesus was in Paradise when Jesus was in the Presence of the Father?
- How long did Jesus Spend in the abode of the dead preaching to the captives?
For us, the issue is not the thief but the resurrection of the Lord. That is the Paramount of our faith." Let the dead bury the Dead."
There is, I believe, and I could be wrong, so please, this is only an opinion. Many things about death cannot be answered because they are in the context of faith and hope. We must live as close to the lord as possible and not wait until we are on the cross before death to accept Jesus as Lord. Today is the day of salvation.
Hi Len... Welcome to CC!
I appreciate that you took such time to give such a lengthy answer. There's a lot of good information in it.
It does seem to be a bit of a word study, which can be helpful. It really makes my head spin when people use any and all of those various words/names synonymously, when they aren't. And then they pretend that they know what they're saying and that I should listen because they're "smart"... when they've already dispelled that notion, IMHO, when they made them all synonymous.
Perhaps though, I should try to clarify my previous post... from long ago, lol.
The word that a previous poster had used was Tartarus... I think that would be equivalent to your "Deepest Abyss/Pit", would it not?
In Greek mythology, Tartarus equates to the "realm of the damned" and a place of torment... awaiting Divine punishment. I think it equates to Jesus' use of Gehenna and ever-lasting fire... IDK?
So that would mean that Jesus went to preached to the souls that were already damned, according to some anyway... that's the concept that I've not yet adopted. I do believe that Scriptures, like 1 Pet. 3:19, indicate that Jesus did go to, what I'll call, the "under-world", "Hell/Shaol". Hades is an interesting word to me... I'm not yet confident that we have a true understanding of it. I say that because Hades was a person, not a place. Hades was the name of the god of the under-world, as ancient Greeks understood things. Over time, it morphed into the name of that under-world as well... (I can accept either way). Hades might have been the overseer of Tartarus to some degree or other... the Titans were the ones that actually ruled there, as I understand things. But Hades is a generalized place for the dead and might be equated with the Hebrew place Shaol. So yeah, Shaol/Hades... we might agree?
Anyway, I do believe that Jesus went to set the captives free, so to speak - but as to Him going to the Gehenna/Tartarus, the places of the damned? I'm not ready to accept that. But if someone has an intelligent position on it, I might listen...
I appreciate that you took such time to give such a lengthy answer. There's a lot of good information in it.
It does seem to be a bit of a word study, which can be helpful. It really makes my head spin when people use any and all of those various words/names synonymously, when they aren't. And then they pretend that they know what they're saying and that I should listen because they're "smart"... when they've already dispelled that notion, IMHO, when they made them all synonymous.
Perhaps though, I should try to clarify my previous post... from long ago, lol.
The word that a previous poster had used was Tartarus... I think that would be equivalent to your "Deepest Abyss/Pit", would it not?
In Greek mythology, Tartarus equates to the "realm of the damned" and a place of torment... awaiting Divine punishment. I think it equates to Jesus' use of Gehenna and ever-lasting fire... IDK?
So that would mean that Jesus went to preached to the souls that were already damned, according to some anyway... that's the concept that I've not yet adopted. I do believe that Scriptures, like 1 Pet. 3:19, indicate that Jesus did go to, what I'll call, the "under-world", "Hell/Shaol". Hades is an interesting word to me... I'm not yet confident that we have a true understanding of it. I say that because Hades was a person, not a place. Hades was the name of the god of the under-world, as ancient Greeks understood things. Over time, it morphed into the name of that under-world as well... (I can accept either way). Hades might have been the overseer of Tartarus to some degree or other... the Titans were the ones that actually ruled there, as I understand things. But Hades is a generalized place for the dead and might be equated with the Hebrew place Shaol. So yeah, Shaol/Hades... we might agree?
Anyway, I do believe that Jesus went to set the captives free, so to speak - but as to Him going to the Gehenna/Tartarus, the places of the damned? I'm not ready to accept that. But if someone has an intelligent position on it, I might listen...
After you stated that you had decided to oppose anything I say rather than be a Christian with Christian ways, I haven't read anything you write, I have you on ignore. I am sorry I relented and spoke to you. I will use my concordance for your decision that they don't say in the OT that death is to sleep with their ancestors, and that the saints live when Jesus was crucified. And see how your are--read this last post you made again. Please let Christ bless you, you do seem to read his word occasionally.
1 Peter 4:5-7
King James Version
5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1 Peter 3:18-20
King James Version
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Nothing in the texts about the preaching being his post ressurrections.
King James Version
5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1 Peter 3:18-20
King James Version
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Nothing in the texts about the preaching being his post ressurrections.
Prescient post.
Jesus Christ the Lord....the omnipresent omniscient God of creation and sovereign Lord of time and space.
It MAY be that Jesus did some travelling to and fro during those three days and nights. But nobody knows for sure.
BTW, after hearing some newfound lectures on this matter, it was indeed a full 3 days and 3 nights, casting a Friday crucifixion into obsolescence. Why? Because the Crucifixion week MUST match the Exodus Passover week. And it took 3 days and 3 nights for the children of Israel to travel from Egypt to the Red Sea (actually what we know of today as the Gulf of Aqaba!).
Jesus Christ the Lord....the omnipresent omniscient God of creation and sovereign Lord of time and space.
It MAY be that Jesus did some travelling to and fro during those three days and nights. But nobody knows for sure.
BTW, after hearing some newfound lectures on this matter, it was indeed a full 3 days and 3 nights, casting a Friday crucifixion into obsolescence. Why? Because the Crucifixion week MUST match the Exodus Passover week. And it took 3 days and 3 nights for the children of Israel to travel from Egypt to the Red Sea (actually what we know of today as the Gulf of Aqaba!).