Zionism among the Evangelicals is contradicted by Scripture

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
113
Which is why I'm asking, that is by the 13th century bce Abraham's children were dwelling in those areas yet Isaac/Israel was being delivered from bondage and entering their land(hence Joshua's statement when they arrived there),,,then in the 6th century bce in Daniel 7:27 it states that all dominions https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dominion shall serve and obey him. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel 7&version=KJV when the everlasting kingdom is established. So all dominions not just one.
 

Beckie

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2022
2,516
939
113
Which is why I'm asking, that is by the 13th century bce Abraham's children were dwelling in those areas yet Isaac/Israel was being delivered from bondage and entering their land(hence Joshua's statement when they arrived there),,,then in the 6th century bce in Daniel 7:27 it states that all dominions https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dominion shall serve and obey him. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel 7&version=KJV when the everlasting kingdom is established. So all dominions not just one.
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
 

NotmebutHim

Senior Member
May 17, 2015
2,942
1,617
113
48
I don't know if I would be labeled a Christian Zionist or not, but I do believe Romans 11 in which Paul wrote that God is not finished with Israel because "the fullness of the Gentiles" hasn't all come in yet.

Exactly how God is going to deal with Israel in the future is above my pay grade, but I know that He will do it.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
113
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

I'm aware of this but thank you... in regards though look real close at where Abraham's decedents were/are dwelling(land God gave them for their possession) and notice he told them that he would not give Israel the land he gave them for possession. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy 2&version=KJV notice where Ishmael dwelt https://biblehub.com/genesis/21-21.htm ect.ect. with Abraham's other children.
 

Beckie

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2022
2,516
939
113
I'm aware of this but thank you... in regards though look real close at where Abraham's decedents were/are dwelling(land God gave them for their possession) and notice he told them that he would not give Israel the land he gave them for possession. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy 2&version=KJV notice where Ishmael dwelt https://biblehub.com/genesis/21-21.htm ect.ect. with Abraham's other children.
To my thinking /understanding the land is not important for all the earth is Gods

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,778
8,614
113
You need to first understand the difference between a "royal grant covenant" and a "suzerain-vassal covenant" before making any unfounded assertions. Conflating the two distinct covenants is cause for confusion, faulty doctrine and mayhem.

Overview of The Abrahamic And Mosaic Covenants And Their Relationship To Ancient Near Eastern Treaties
Overview of The Abrahamic And Mosaic Covenants And Their Relationship To Ancient Near Eastern Treaties (gracelife.org)

"The purpose of this paper is to provide a brief overview of the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants. I will evaluate the nature of each; specifically how each can be likened to the ancient near eastern (ANE) Royal Grant and Suzerain Vassal treaties. I will provide stipulations of each covenant, the time aspect, and the promised rewards and/or consequences of disobedience of each. Before beginning though it will be helpful to define what a covenant is and then more specifically what a Royal Grant and Suzerain Vassal treaty is; and then compare and contrast this with the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants. I will conclude with the importance of each and how each of the covenants relates to the modern believer."
Gen 12

1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you; 2 And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing; 3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."

Question: does this not apply to Christians as it did to faithful Abraham?
 

Beckie

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2022
2,516
939
113
Deu 8:1 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.

Deu_4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.

Deu_4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

Deu_5:33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,778
8,614
113
Triple redundancy bro. You can't ask for more than that.

Gen 22:2
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
Gen 22:12
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Gen 22:16
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
Exo 4:22
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,778
8,614
113
Deu 8:1 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.

Deu_4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.

Deu_4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

Deu_5:33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.
Jer 31:9
They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
 

Beckie

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2022
2,516
939
113
C. 1. Scofield understood this clearly. Dispensationally speaking, there can be no biblically prophesied event in between the founding of the Church and the Rapture. Citing Matthew 4: 17b, "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand," Scofield wrote: "'At hand' is never a positive affirmation that the person or thing said to be 'at hand' will immediately appear, but only that no known or predicted event must intervene."
In Walvoord's book, The Rapture Question (1979), "No Intervening Events," in a chapter called "The Imminency of the·Rapture," Walvoord wrote: "The hope of the return of Christ to take the saints to heaven is presented in John 14 as an imminent hope. There is no teaching of any intervening event. The prospect of being taken to heaven at the coming of Christ is not qualified by description of any signs or prerequisite events.,,13 This is the heart of the formal theology of pre-tribulational, premillennial dispensationalism: Scofield you know as the name behind your Scofield Reference Bible. (SRB) Walvoord , was from 1952-1986 President of Dallas Theological Seminary . (DTS) The largest dispensational seminary in the world, lest anyone accuse me of picking on the midgets of dispensationalism.

The REASON you believe in the imminency of rapture is based, whether you know it or not on the teaching quoted. I'll repeat the similar lines from each: Scofield: will immediately appear, but only that no known or predicted event must intervene. Walvoord: . There is no teaching of any intervening event. The prospect of being taken to heaven at the coming of Christ is not qualified by description of any signs or prerequisite events. Nearly identical statements from the two biggest voices of DF from the 20th century. This is the short version of the 'Parenthetical Church Age' doctrine . This teaches that the church was unforeseen in the Prophets . Yeah so what , the rapture is really close , every body who really care knows this.. We getting to it. Tyler asked : How so? Do you think Israel being reformed as a nation is a coincidence? He refers to the modern state of Israel founded in the Spring of 1948. Lots of folks would agree , this is fulfillment of prophecy and it is often used as a proof text in support of DF Dispensational Futurist eschatology. Noticed a problem ?
To a man every published DF author prior to WWII spoke with great assurance the church would - be gone before Israel would return . !948 came and went and no rapture. We didnt get to float up in the sky, but we did get something . Specifically an intervening event of some magnitude. If this event is prophetic fulfillment, a couple of ugly heads pop up.
1. EVERY teacher who claimed he learned from the Holy Spirit that the rapture could come any moment, was not mistaken but fundamentally in error. The Holy Spirit was not taken by surprise and had known this fact of history thousands of years BEFORE it took place.
2. If immanency is true it obviously was NOT true in 1947 ,or anytime prior. Whats fun here is that many of you are already pointing to this or that current event as fulfilling Bible prophecy. Usually something to do with moral decline and or 'One World Government' All the while the basis for your expectation is pushed ever closer to the Memory Hole. So ,as in the OP , most of you have quietly and unwittingly traded any foundation of immanency , for the quick hallelujahs of CNN headlines. ' Were so excited things are getting bad fast...' None of you can say , with certainty there are no more 'bible prophecies ' to come before rapture. But you have ,with certainty, rejected the 'no intervening events ' doctrine.

written by a friend
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
errs of dispensationalism ? one is all the conflicting charts ! :giggle:
The chart is just a background pic for the video. I know you likely will not listen to the video, but i wish you would.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,778
8,614
113
C. 1. Scofield understood this clearly. Dispensationally speaking, there can be no biblically prophesied event in between the founding of the Church and the Rapture. Citing Matthew 4: 17b, "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand," Scofield wrote: "'At hand' is never a positive affirmation that the person or thing said to be 'at hand' will immediately appear, but only that no known or predicted event must intervene."
In Walvoord's book, The Rapture Question (1979), "No Intervening Events," in a chapter called "The Imminency of the·Rapture," Walvoord wrote: "The hope of the return of Christ to take the saints to heaven is presented in John 14 as an imminent hope. There is no teaching of any intervening event. The prospect of being taken to heaven at the coming of Christ is not qualified by description of any signs or prerequisite events.,,13 This is the heart of the formal theology of pre-tribulational, premillennial dispensationalism: Scofield you know as the name behind your Scofield Reference Bible. (SRB) Walvoord , was from 1952-1986 President of Dallas Theological Seminary . (DTS) The largest dispensational seminary in the world, lest anyone accuse me of picking on the midgets of dispensationalism.

The REASON you believe in the imminency of rapture is based, whether you know it or not on the teaching quoted. I'll repeat the similar lines from each: Scofield: will immediately appear, but only that no known or predicted event must intervene. Walvoord: . There is no teaching of any intervening event. The prospect of being taken to heaven at the coming of Christ is not qualified by description of any signs or prerequisite events. Nearly identical statements from the two biggest voices of DF from the 20th century. This is the short version of the 'Parenthetical Church Age' doctrine . This teaches that the church was unforeseen in the Prophets . Yeah so what , the rapture is really close , every body who really care knows this.. We getting to it. Tyler asked : How so? Do you think Israel being reformed as a nation is a coincidence? He refers to the modern state of Israel founded in the Spring of 1948. Lots of folks would agree , this is fulfillment of prophecy and it is often used as a proof text in support of DF Dispensational Futurist eschatology. Noticed a problem ?
To a man every published DF author prior to WWII spoke with great assurance the church would - be gone before Israel would return . !948 came and went and no rapture. We didnt get to float up in the sky, but we did get something . Specifically an intervening event of some magnitude. If this event is prophetic fulfillment, a couple of ugly heads pop up.
1. EVERY teacher who claimed he learned from the Holy Spirit that the rapture could come any moment, was not mistaken but fundamentally in error. The Holy Spirit was not taken by surprise and had known this fact of history thousands of years BEFORE it took place.
2. If immanency is true it obviously was NOT true in 1947 ,or anytime prior. Whats fun here is that many of you are already pointing to this or that current event as fulfilling Bible prophecy. Usually something to do with moral decline and or 'One World Government' All the while the basis for your expectation is pushed ever closer to the Memory Hole. So ,as in the OP , most of you have quietly and unwittingly traded any foundation of immanency , for the quick hallelujahs of CNN headlines. ' Were so excited things are getting bad fast...' None of you can say , with certainty there are no more 'bible prophecies ' to come before rapture. But you have ,with certainty, rejected the 'no intervening events ' doctrine.

written by a friend
Whatever your opinion, the "7 more times" and "captivity of the nation" judgements are over.
Israel is reforming per Ezek 37.

Its right in your face and a conclusive fact beyond all refutation.
 

Beckie

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2022
2,516
939
113
The chart is just a background pic for the video. I know you likely will not listen to the video, but i wish you would.
You are mistaken i am listing as you wrote this. Being rescued from dispy about 35 years ago
:)

Did you read post #311
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
You are mistaken i am listing as you wrote this. Being rescued from dispy about 35 years ago
:)

Did you read post #311
Not entirely yet. I have been sword fighting with my son.