Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

[ForestGreenCook]

Sorry, ForestGreemnCook, I'm not sure that I understand your latter point. Would you mind posting an example of what you have in mind. Thanks.

Our differences is in the lost sheep of the house of Israel. We both agree that, ultimately, all of spiritual Israel will be eternally delivered. Where we disagree is that I believe the lost sheep of the house of spiritual Israel have been born again, but they do not have the true understanding of the gospel, and are disobedient in preaching false doctrines, which includes almost all on this
forum. ( 1Tim 1:3 ).

You, on the other hand, do not believe that they are born again.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

This is the only reply I'm going to male to your recent posts because I've already refuted them before. Christ IS the Truth. Despite your insistence to the contrary, no one who is elect/saved/born again can stray from Christ as their Saviour because it is God Himself who guarantees that will not happen.
Everything else flows from, and a byproduct of that salvation.

I do not agree with renewerdadayday in almost all of his theory, but this portion of his post #796, I agree with.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

I would like to interject my thoughts concerning "the lost sheep of the house of [spiritual] Israel", which will ultimulty, repent and be delivered from their ignorance of the gospel.

I believe that the lost sheep, are born again, elect, and have the promise of an eternal inheritance, such as renewddaybyday, but do not have a full knowledge of the gospel, and have been deceived into preaching false doctrines. ( 1 Tim 1:3 ). ( 1 Tim 2:4 ), (Rom 10:1-3) (Matt 7:13 ). saved=delivered here in time.

The "very elect" is the remnant of the house of {spiritual} Israel, that cannot be deceived ( Zeph 3:13 ). ( the very elect, the remnant, Matt 7:14 ).

 

[rogerg]

Our differences is in the lost sheep of the house of Israel. We both agree that, ultimately, all of spiritual Israel will be eternally delivered. Where we disagree is that I believe the lost sheep of the house of spiritual Israel have been born again, but they do not have the true understanding of the gospel, and are disobedient in preaching false doctrines, which includes almost all on this
forum. ( 1Tim 1:3 ).

You, on the other hand, do not believe that they are born again.

Correct. True faith in Christ is given by God through the Holy Spirt to those born again so, they cannot, not have it, nor can it be lost.
As the verses that I believe I posted previously say (which I've posted again below), God will not allow a falling away of faith in Christ for those born-again. Unfortunately, and as you didn't specify what had in mind when you said, "do not have the true understanding of the gospel and are disobedient in preaching false doctrines", I don't know whether I agree with you or not. If you meant they were born again yet didn't know/believe it Christ as their Saviour in all ways, or that they fell away from that faith, then I would have to disagree with you: true faith is not of man's doing but of God's. However, if you meant other ancillary doctrine, apart from a faith in Christ, I could agree, because all born-again are continually learning/refining their understanding/perceptions of the doctrines of Christ and salvation, and so no one knows it all, nor has it all down pat to include those of 1 Tim 1:3.

[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Phl 1:6 KJV] 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[rogerg]

I do not agree with renewerdadayday in almost all of his theory, but this portion of his post #796, I agree with.

It will probably be easier, if you haven't already done so, to read my reply #799

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Correct. True faith in Christ is given by God through the Holy Spirt to those born again so, they cannot, not have it, nor can it be lost.
As the verses that I believe I posted previously say (which I've posted again below), God will not allow a falling away of faith in Christ for those born-again. Unfortunately, and as you didn't specify what had in mind when you said, "do not have the true understanding of the gospel and are disobedient in preaching false doctrines", I don't know whether I agree with you or not. If you meant they were born again yet didn't know/believe it Christ as their Saviour in all ways, or that they fell away from that faith, then I would have to disagree with you: true faith is not of man's doing but of God's. However, if you meant other ancillary doctrine, apart from a faith in Christ, I could agree, because all born-again are continually learning/refining their understanding/perceptions of the doctrines of Christ and salvation, and so no one knows it all, nor has it all down pat to include those of 1 Tim 1:3.

[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Phl 1:6 KJV] 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

I think that I have seen where you think that believing, as a work requirement, is not the cause of ones eternal salvation, If I am wrong, correct me.

2 Tim 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful, he cannot deny himself ( Eph 2:5 ).

 

[rogerg]

I think that I have seen where you think that believing, as a work requirement, is not the cause of ones eternal salvation, If I am wrong, correct me.

2 Tim 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful, he cannot deny himself ( Eph 2:5 ).

I believe that to believe is both a work and it is God's work. To those who have it, it came from their salvation.
I don't understand your point with 2 Tim 2:13 or Eph 2:5. Please elaborate.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It is clear from Scripture that a born again believer can stray from the Truth and they can be deceived. If and when this occurs, this affects their day to day walk with God ... their communion with Him, their fellowship with the Father ... notwithstanding the insistence by you and brightfame52 to the contrary.

Despite your insistence to the contrary,no one who is elect/saved/born again can stray from Christ as their Saviour because it is God Himself who guarantees that will not happen.

You flat out deny what is written in Scripture:

James 1:

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.


Every time a born again one sins, it is due to his or her having been drawn away from the Lord Jesus Christ to walk according to the flesh.

You refuse to acknowledge that there is a difference between salvation (which is eternal) and the day-to-day fellowship between the believer and God.

Everything else flows from, and is a byproduct of that salvation.

... so when a born again one sins, that is a "byproduct of that salvation" ... it's not that the born again one has been drawn away from the Lord Jesus Christ through his own lust, and enticed???
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Galatians 5:10 does not support your claim that a born again believer "wont stray away from [the Truth], they cant no longer be deceived".

Read Galatians 5:7 ... just a few verses before your proof text:

Galatians 5:7-10 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

The Galatian believers were hindered by someone who had come into the church and taught something other than the truth.

Sure, there have been/will be false prophets who attempt to bring false doctrine into or to hinder the true church, but as true believers, they will never follow it.

false statement. The verse clearly states they followed and were hindered in their walk with the Lord because of it. Does that affect salvation? No. It affects the fellowship and communion with the Lord in the day to day life of the believer. That you turn a blind eye to this truth does not make it any less truth.

But that they were being hindered (or their forward progress slowed or stopped), was not the point, Instead, the point was whether they remained faithful to Christ, by Christ.

Read the whole chapter, rogerg. In Galatians 5, the born again believer is encouraged to walk according to the Spirit (who he or she is in the Lord Jesus Christ) in contrast to walking according to the flesh (who he or she was in Adam):

Galatians 5:16-18 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

so again the issue is the believer being drawn away from the Lord to walk according to the flesh.

Paul was not speaking of their falling away from belief in Christ as Saviour, instead, he was speaking of their desire to observe holy days instead of the liberty that is in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 5 mentions nothing about "their desire to observe holy days". Gal 5:2 mentions circumcision ... as does Gal 5:3, Gal 5:6 and Gal 5:11.

this was Paul's criticism:

[Gal 4:10 KJV] 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

That is written in Galatians 4 ... we were discussing what Paul wrote in Galatians 5 concerning those who came in and taught that the believers must be circumcised and thereby hindered the walk of the believers.

Galatians 5 contrasts the walk in the Spirit (the new man) with the walk in the flesh (the old man).

How do we know they would cease from that? Because Paul said they would, but only "through the Lord";

yes ... and when a born again believer is walking according to the flesh, he or she has turned from the Lord. He or she has been drawn away from the Lord and is now walking according to the flesh where the lusts (desires) of the flesh distract him or her.

The moment the believer realizes he or she has been drawn away, the believer is to turn his or her heart to the Lord ... the Lord will be there with arms wide open to welcome the believer back into the fold.

The believer is told to put off the old man and to put on the new man.

that is, because God was within them moving them to recognize the truth and moving them to follow it - it was by God, otherwise, for the unsaved, they would not. This is confirmed, and confirms, 1 Pet 1:5.

[Gal 5:10 KJV] 10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Paul's criticism of them, in essence was the same one he levied against Peter and Barnabas. Would you say that Peter and Barnabas had fallen from faith in Christ as Saviour? No, absolutely not!

That is my whole point, rogerg. Peter and Barnabas were still born again believers, but they had been drawn away from the Lord to walk according to the flesh.

Here is what Paul tells us:

Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Their walk was affected ... not their salvation. They were still born again believers, but they had strayed from truth ... they had been drawn away from the Lord and they walked not uprightly.

A failure to observe or know doctrine, is not synonymous to a failure or an abandonment of faith.

I never said that it was. Because you conflate salvation with the day to day walk with God, you keep accusing me of making claims I never stated.

[Gal 2:12-13 KJV]
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

Those verses show Peter had been drawn away from the Lord Jesus Christ ... he was walking according to the flesh ... and it affected Barnabas.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

No, a believer cannot be deceived, here is the memo from Christ Matt 24:24

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Quit ripping verses from the context within which they are placed by the Author of Scripture.

After the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (Matt 24:15) is seen ...

Matthew 24:

23 Then [after the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel] if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


The true believer is not going to be deceived by false prophets when they say lo, here is Christ because the true believer studies God's Word and the Holy Spirit brings to remembrance that which is written in Scripture concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

However, as you can see from your stated verse, there shall be great signs and wonders performed by these false prophets and many will believe them.

If they come under the influence of false teaching, they still wont be finally deceived

I have stated over and over again in this thread that the salvation of the born again one is not affected if/when he or she is drawn away from the Lord.

I have repeatedly stated that when a believer is drawn away from the Lord, it affects the fellowship of the believer ... the day to day, ongoing, close communion with God.

If you and rogerg continue to conflate salvation with fellowship, you are going to continue to misrepresent what I have stated due to your complete and utter failure to comprehend fellowship vs. salvation.

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Notice John said that ye shall abide in Him ! Thats a guarantee they shall abide in the true doctrine because of the indwelling Spirit who is with them forever

Notice in vs 28, John encourages the believer to abide in Him.

The word "abide" in vs 28 is present tense, active – meaning the believer is the doer of the action, imperative – expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the One commanding.

There would be no need to encourage the believer in the active imperative if there was no chance the believer could be drawn away.

can a True believer fall prey to the influences of false teaching, of course, can they they be finally deceived and lost, NO !

... this is what I have been telling you and rogerg, but you both insist I am saying the believer somehow loses salvation ... which I have never stated, although you and rogerg continue to claim that is what I am saying. both you and rogerg need to learn how to read with comprehension.
.

 

[fredoheaven]

"Quit ripping verses from the context within which they are placed by the Author of Scripture."

Very true as I observed from the very beginning how Calvinist ripped-off the Bible.

 

[brightfame52]

Quit ripping verses from the context within which they are placed by the Author of Scripture.

After the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (Matt 24:15) is seen ...

Matthew 24:

23 Then [after the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel] if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


The true believer is not going to be deceived by false prophets when they say lo, here is Christ because the true believer studies God's Word and the Holy Spirit brings to remembrance that which is written in Scripture concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

However, as you can see from your stated verse, there shall be great signs and wonders performed by these false prophets and many will believe them.





I have stated over and over again in this thread that the salvation of the born again one is not affected if/when he or she is drawn away from the Lord.

I have repeatedly stated that when a believer is drawn away from the Lord, it affects the fellowship of the believer ... the day to day, ongoing, close communion with God.

If you and rogerg continue to conflate salvation with fellowship, you are going to continue to misrepresent what I have stated due to your complete and utter failure to comprehend fellowship vs. salvation.





Notice in vs 28, John encourages the believer to abide in Him.

The word "abide" in vs 28 is present tense, active – meaning the believer is the doer of the action, imperative – expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the One commanding.

There would be no need to encourage the believer in the active imperative if there was no chance the believer could be drawn away.





... this is what I have been telling you and rogerg, but you both insist I am saying the believer somehow loses salvation ... which I have never stated, although you and rogerg continue to claim that is what I am saying. both you and rogerg need to learn how to read with comprehension.
.

The fellowship of a believer may be affected plenty of times, nothing to do with being deceived away from the Gospel to a false Gospel.

 

[brightfame52]

Quit ripping verses from the context within which they are placed by the Author of Scripture.

After the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (Matt 24:15) is seen ...

Matthew 24:

23 Then [after the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel] if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


The true believer is not going to be deceived by false prophets when they say lo, here is Christ because the true believer studies God's Word and the Holy Spirit brings to remembrance that which is written in Scripture concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

However, as you can see from your stated verse, there shall be great signs and wonders performed by these false prophets and many will believe them.





I have stated over and over again in this thread that the salvation of the born again one is not affected if/when he or she is drawn away from the Lord.

I have repeatedly stated that when a believer is drawn away from the Lord, it affects the fellowship of the believer ... the day to day, ongoing, close communion with God.

If you and rogerg continue to conflate salvation with fellowship, you are going to continue to misrepresent what I have stated due to your complete and utter failure to comprehend fellowship vs. salvation.





Notice in vs 28, John encourages the believer to abide in Him.

The word "abide" in vs 28 is present tense, active – meaning the believer is the doer of the action, imperative – expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the One commanding.

There would be no need to encourage the believer in the active imperative if there was no chance the believer could be drawn away.





... this is what I have been telling you and rogerg, but you both insist I am saying the believer somehow loses salvation ... which I have never stated, although you and rogerg continue to claim that is what I am saying. both you and rogerg need to learn how to read with comprehension.
.

The problem however you have and others is you conflate the Gospel and it's Doctrines into Calvinism, if you reject Calvinism as in the Doctrines of Grace you reject the Gospel of Gods Grace. That is unbelief!

 

[rogerg]

James 1:

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.


Every time a born again one sins, it is due to his or her having been drawn away from the Lord Jesus Christ to walk according to the flesh.

You refuse to acknowledge that there is a difference between salvation (which is eternal) and the day-to-day fellowship between the believer and God.

Oh boy - your interpretations/conclusions are what happens when you use your own definition of biblical words instead
of referring back to the Bible to let it function as its own dictionary. You confuse and conflate doctrine because you do not understand
fundamental biblical principles, because you do not correctly define its words, the most important doctrine of which, is that everything comes through/by Christ, but is only given to His elect, not to everyone.

You don't even realize what you've posted or quoted above: the "temptation" spoken of is in being tempted to trust in one's works and righteousness for salvation and not in Christ's. Do you see the "Blessed is the man" part of the verse that YOU posted? It means that those who do not trust in their works, do not, ONLY BECAUSE THEY HAD FIRST BEEN BLESSED BY GOD - it is not of themselves - everyone not so blessed trusts in their works. However, that blessing is only to the elect/saved/born again. And thereby, the elect have fellowship with God because by God they have they been placed into the light.
And by the way, I do not refuse to acknowledge any such thing insofar as it is important to try to live by the moral directions of the Bible, but we as still (living) in the flesh, do not do them perfectly, nor have I ever said otherwise, but neither does that affect salvation. God definitely chastises His elect who behave in ways not pleasing to Him - but in doing so, it brings them closer to Him,
it does not push them away.

Here, read these verses, slowly and closely and think about what they're saying. They tell us clearly that it is only the elect who are called by God unto fellowship. It happens NOT of a person's doing, but of God's.

[1Co 1:6-9 KJV]
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God [is] faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

... so when a born again one sins, that is a "byproduct of that salvation" ... it's not that the born again one has been drawn away from the Lord Jesus Christ through his own lust, and enticed???
.

You obviously don't know what the Sin is. The Sin is to have trust in works for salvation instead of in Christ's finished works. You just are unable to bring yourself to believe, trust and rest, fully, completely and solely, in Christ as Saviour, and therefore, your natural desire is to fall back to the works of a person.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

"Quit ripping verses from the context within which they are placed by the Author of Scripture."

Very true as I observed from the very beginning how Calvinist ripped-off the Bible.

I don’t know that calvinists are the only ones who have cornered the market on lifting a verse (or verses) from the context.

It's so important to understand words within verses, verses within immediate context, immediate context within remote context ... and all Scripture is to fit together with no contradiction.

I hope and pray, fredoheaven, that you've been well ... seems quite a while since you and I have discussed Scripture.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The fellowship of a believer may be affected plenty of times, nothing to do with being deceived away from the Gospel to a false Gospel.

Since I have I never stated what you claim, you raise a moot point.

if you reject Calvinism as in the Doctrines of Grace you reject the Gospel of Gods Grace. That is unbelief!

you can follow calvinism all you want ... that is your prerogative

I follow the Lord Jesus Christ ... that is not "unbelief!"

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Oh boy - your interpretations/conclusions are what happens when you use your own definition of biblical words instead

of referring back to the Bible to let it function as its own dictionary. You confuse and conflate doctrine because you do not understand
fundamental biblical principles, because you do not correctly define its words, the most important doctrine of which, is that everything comes through/by Christ, but is only given to His elect, not to everyone.

You don't even realize what you've posted or quoted above:

oh rogerg ... you've really gone off the rails. Of course I realize what I have posted and quoted.

That you disagree does not mean I "don't even realize what [I've] posted or quoted above".

the "temptation" spoken of is in being tempted to trust in one's works and righteousness for salvation and not in Christ's.

nope ... read the verses again, rogerg. It is clear that the believer is being tempted/drawn away to sin:

James 1:14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin ...

Do you see the "Blessed is the man" part of the verse that YOU posted? It means that those who do not trust in their works, do not, ONLY BECAUSE THEY HAD FIRST BEEN BLESSED BY GOD - it is not of themselves - everyone not so blessed trusts in their works.

... rogerg, the verse is talking about the trials and temptations we all go through in this life. The whole chapter starts off with a verse which tells us to count it all joy when we fall into divers temptations – James 1:2.

James 1:12 then tells us blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

When we successfully endure the trials of this life (which we can only do as we abide in the Lord Jesus Christ), we will receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised.

However, the Author of Scripture then goes on to tell us that we can be drawn away from the Lord when we are tested and tried:

James 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

What is written in James 1:12 (where the believer successfully endures his or her trial) is contrasted with James 1:13-15.

And please note, it is not a sin to be tempted. Scripture tells us the Lord Jesus Christ was tempted in all points like as we are yet without sin (Heb 4:15).

The sin occurs when lust hath conceived (James 1:15) ... i.e. when we allow the desires of our flesh to influence us to the point of being drawn away from the Lord (Who is our safe refuge) and then act on the desires of our flesh. At that point, we have put back on the "old man" (which we have already been instructed to put off). And please note, this affects our fellowship ... our close relationship with the Lord ... not our salvation. Sin results in broken fellowship.

I do not refuse to acknowledge any such thing insofar as it is important to try to live by the moral directions of the Bible, but we as still (living) in the flesh, do not do them perfectly, nor have I ever said otherwise, but neither does that affect salvation.

you and brightfame52 keep bringing up this strawman concerning salvation when what we are discussing is fellowship ... the ongoing, day-to-day relationship the born again one is to enjoy in this life. The Lord Jesus Christ was crucified so that the believer could have peace with God. Quit conflating salvation with fellowship ... understand that fellowship with the Father and with the Lord Jesus Christ results in the fullness of joy the believer experiences in this life ... while we are awaiting our eternal abode ... the new heaven and new earth.

Here, read these verses, slowly and closely and think about what they're saying. They tell us clearly that it is only the elect who are called by God unto fellowship. It happens NOT of a person's doing, but of God's.

[1Co 1:6-9 KJV]
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God [is] faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

I have no problem with those verses. And I know that the Father and the Son are faithful to do all They promise to do.

We, on the other hand, are not so faithful. Look at the next couple of verses in 1 Cor 1:

1 Corinthians 1:

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?


Paul reproved the believers because they were following men rather than the Lord Jesus Christ. This truth is reiterated in 1 Cor 3:

1 Corinthians 3:

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?


The believers at Corinth were divided ... one said "I follow Paul" ... another said "I follow Apollos". Sadly, we see the same thing going on in our day and time.

Instead of following Paul or Apollos or __________ (fill in the blank), the believer is to follow the Lord Jesus Christ ... and the preacher/teacher is to point the congregation to the Lord Jesus Christ not to himself or any other man.

You obviously don't know what the Sin is.

I will repeat my reply to you the last time you told me I "do not realize what sin is"

Do you know that Scripture tells us whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Rom 14:23) and that if we knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin (James 4:17)???

The Sin is to have trust in works for salvation instead of in Christ's finished works.

All you have done in creating your false premise is place yourself in a scenario wherein you can claim that because you "trust in Christ's finished works" you never sin.

God's Word tells us the born again believer can overcome sin because the Lord Jesus Christ has given us the victory over sin. But we are only victorious as we abide in the Lord.

God's Word also tells us the born again believer can be drawn away from the Lord Jesus Christ by the desires of the flesh.

You can argue with Scripture all you want ... and you can claim that you never sin because of the construct you have devised and thereby deceive yourself and make Him a liar (1 John 1:8; 1 John 1:10).

I will trust God's Word, thank Him for holding me close, and if/when I do stumble, I will confess my sins and He is faithful and just to forgive me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

You just are unable to bring yourself to believe, trust and rest, fully, completely and solely, in Christ as Saviour, and therefore, your natural desire is to fall back to the works of a person

... another construct of your own making. Just because I am able to comprehend the difference between salvation and fellowship does not mean I do not "believe, trust and rest, fully, completely and solely, in Christ as Saviour".
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[Cameron143]

Have you guys considered starting the R and R thread (Roger and Renewed). Actually, better not. You would argue over who the first R was for. Just ignore.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Have you guys considered starting the R and R thread (Roger and Renewed). Actually, better not. You would argue over who the first R was for. Just ignore.

ha-ha ... rog can have 1st r ... or rog can have 2nd r ... whatever rog wants ...
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[brightfame52]

renewed

Since I have I never stated what you claim, you raise a moot point.

Then its a moot point, the promise of the Gospel is the Elect shall never perish or fall away unto perdition, never that they wont sin and come under Fatherly Chastening out of Gods Love for them.

you can follow calvinism all you want ... that is your prerogative

I follow the Lord Jesus Christ ... that is not "unbelief!"

No you dont follow the Jesus of scripture and at the same time scoff His Gospel Truth which you relegate to being of a man. You are in unbelief