Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?

glf · Mar 20, 2023

Regarding the Trib, let me add:
When the burning mountain hits the earth after the four horsemen come, polluting a third of the rivers, destroying a third of the world's ships, and killing a third of the world's population: it will not hit Russia as they will be taken out by Europe when they attack Israel; and it will not hit in Africa as the Arab nations of North Africa will be destroyed when they attack Israel; and it will not hit in Europe or Asia as they will meet each other in the battle of Armageddon. That pretty much leaves Central America for it to affect a full third of the world's rivers, ships, and population.
That it hits early on during the Trib is an act of mercy by the Lord. I say this because we're told in scripture that except there is a falling away, the end shall not come. Considering the state of the world spiritually, we're all of us for the most part babes in Christ. Heb 5 tells us that anyone who is unskillful in the word of righteousness is a babe. How may babes, do you suppose, will die from the burning mountain before they have time to be among those who will be falling away before the end comes?
Once this happens, it'll be a day's wages for a day's food for the rest of the world.

Dino246 · Mar 20, 2023

Lori said:

I do a lot of pondering about end times and what it’ll look like for the believer. No one in my church wants to talk about it, so I thought I’d bring it here.

I have heard a few theologians proclaim that a pre-trib rapture is false doctrine, and a “lie from the pit of hell”.

I’m a pre-tribber married to a post tribber, and frankly, his arguments for a post tribulational rapture don’t hold water as far as I’m concerned. Perhaps a post-tribber from this forum can make me understand.

I have an open mind. Mostly because I fully expected the rapture to happen last year. The numbers just made sense. 2021 was 73 years since Israel became a nation, leaving 7 years for the tribulation culminating in the 80-year-old-generation mentioned in Psalms.

Regardless, God is angry, and He’s about to punish the entire planet, and I’m persuaded that ours is the generation that will see these things come to pass. With a possible (probable?) WWIII scenario, and end time prophecies jumping off the pages of the Bible, I am fascinated, excited, and a little nervous. I would love to read the thoughts of any post-tribbers on what you think it will look like for believers to go through the tribulation (specifically, the 7 trumpets, seals and bowls of The Revelation.)

Do post-tribbers believe that as God’s elect, we are subject to the same wrath as everyone else? For instance, at some point the earth will be bombarded with 75 lb hailstones (Rev 16:21). Are we subject to God’s wrath in that we will be crushed along with everyone else? Or will they not effect us? When those crazy looking locusts are tormenting the population, are we to be supernaturally protected from them?

If you’re a post-tribber (or even a non-tribber) convince me that I’m wrong. I wouldn’t want to believe God for something that’s never going to happen based on misinterpreted scripture.

Anybody?

If you haven’t already, read Josephus’ Wars of the Jews.

KeithB · Mar 22, 2023

GRACE_ambassador said:

1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

The disciples wanted to know even then what were the sings of His coming. Did Jesus reply no you cannot know them, or did He go ahead and lay out events that would take place before His return.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Verses 5 through 8 seem to be laying out the times and the seasons. Verse 8 says all these are but the beginning of sorrows.
Sorrows from the Strongs
5604 ōdín – properly, the pain of childbirth (travail); (figuratively) the pain necessary to open up (introduce) something new, i.e. to bring in more.

[5604 (ōdín) suggests intense suffering (similar to birth pain) – hence, "to suffer greatly, great pain" (L & N, 1, 24.87) like "a birth-pang, travail-pain; figuratively, extreme suffering" (A-S).]

What birth are we talking about here? The birth of a new age
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
And then shall the end come. The end of what? This earth age.
Mark 13 says almost the same thing as Matthew 24. There is one very interesting verse I want to point out.

The Abomination of Desolation
(Matthew 24:15-25; Luke 21:20-24)
14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. 21And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
Verse 23 But take heed: I (Jesus Christ) have FORTOLD YOU ALL THINGS. Jesus is not going to leave us in the dark.
Zechariah 14

King James Bible Par ▾
The Destroyers of Jerusalem Destroyed
1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Again, does this sound like we are not to understand.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
We will knw the times and the seasons we will not know the exact moment in time, but we are to be watchman standing ready to sound the alarm when we see these things happening.

KeithB · Mar 23, 2023

GRACE_ambassador said:

I do not want to come off as rude, mean spirited or anything else but the bible does not say anything about a pre trib rapture. You can not show it to me in the bible.
You referenced 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2. Let's look at it.
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
We (Paul and those with him) beseech you brethern (Beseech 2065 erōtáō (from eromai, "ask") – make an earnest request, especially by someone on "special footing," i.e. in "preferred position." )Paul is saying Brothers and sisters we want to talk to you about the timing of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ because some have gotten the wrong idea they did not fully understand chapter 4 of our first letter to you.
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
We do not want you to misunderstand or let you mind be polluted by some man or some teaching, or some doctrine that is not what we are going to set forth here.
3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Let no man deceive you! That would be me, your pastor, small group leader etc. for that day; What day is Paul talking about? The Day of the Lord. What is the day of the Lord? 2nd Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. What is that 1,000-year period? A millennium. We are talking about the millennium and what must take place before that can happen. What is this falling away? The great apostasy the turning away from the truth set forth in God's word and believing a false doctrine or teaching. And the man of sin be revealed the son of perdition. Who is the man of sin and who is the only person etc. to be sentenced to death or to parish? Satan.
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Who is it that is going to do all these things? Let's look at Mark 13: 14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: This is what Danial was told would be sealed until the time of the end. Have you ever read it? If you have Jesus gave us a command Let him that readeth understand. Do you understand?; or are you going to follow the first Christ to show up on the sean at the 6th trump The Antichrist.
More to come

KeithB · Mar 23, 2023

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
Who is withholding Satan and his angles at this time? It is Michael and his angles.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Just as the Holy Spirit is at work today here on earth so is the spirit of the Antichrist.
You should not be taken by surprise by any of this. Paul told us about it in 2nd Corinthians 11 12But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
These false apostles, false teachers, false pastors can be found on tv, radio, and in many church pulpits today. Make sure you are not being taken in by them is what Paul is saying.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
After all these things happen then shell Jesus come.
1st Corinthians 15:50-52
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
This earthly body the one that God created on the 6th day and the one He created Judgment. We shall not all sleep (die). All that is the good, the bad, and in my case as a few others the ugly.
I am going to stop here the hour is getting to late and I need my beauty sleep.

KeithB · Mar 23, 2023

As we move on, I must ask do you believe the whole bible to be true? I have read and heard people say that is only a story or that the parables are just stories or analogies they are not to be taken literally. I know that even the bible that I use the Authorized 1611 Version has some misinterpretations in it, but I thank it is better than the newer "easy to read" bibles out there today. I ask that because the next place I want to go is the parable of the wheat and the tares.
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds
24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Instead of me going through this I am going to let Jesus explain it, so if you disagree take it up with Him.
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I want you to notice verse 25. But the men slept; why is that important aren't the workers supposed to sleep? Yes, they are but these men were on watch they were to protect the field; they fell asleep on watch and the enemy walked right in and sowed the tares, the bad seed. With that said let's look at what Jesus has to say. When Jesus interprets something that is the way it is.
Mark 13: 16
16And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. When you are working in the field (world) for God we do not quit and go back and put on our regular close and walk off the job.
This is why I came here for all of you that claim there is going to be a rapture and you will be taken away; please listen up.
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
What is the order of things. The Son of man sends His angles to gather out of His kingdom (the world) all things that offend and them that do iniquity, Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Where is that kingdom going to be? Right here on earth.
More to follow.

KeithB · Mar 23, 2023

I want to document from the bible just where God is going to set up His kingdom.
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Just what is that day? The day of the Lord the millenuam the 1000-year reign. Ezekiel tells us this valley will be a 60 square mile valley. There is more written in chapters 40-48 than in the entire book of Revelation.
Remember these words are not mine they come from the bible.
There will be more to follow. I hope this helps you understand the timing of Jesus return.

KeithB · Mar 23, 2023

GRACE_ambassador said:

I have not gotten anything back from you, I would like to know what you thank so far for there is many more places like Ezekiel 13 where God says I am against those that teach My people to fly to save their souls,

glf · Mar 24, 2023

KeithB said:

No matter what anyone believes regarding how the tribulation will play out; Mt 24: 21, 22 "For then shall be the great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened;" tells us, all by itself, that no one will be able to know the day or the hour, even if their understanding for the end times is exactly correct. **Oops this was for the post before this one...**

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 24, 2023

GaryA said:

Thanks for your question, GaryA.

I think I touched on it in a past post, but I'm not sure if you saw it. It's been awhile.

First, I'd like to quote something very brief from one of the commentaries, that will help set up my post:

[quoting]

"36. according to his will] as Daniel 8:4, Daniel 11:3 (of Alexander); Daniel 11:16 (of Antiochus the Great)."

[end quoting]

I selected this commentary because of its succinctness. = D

I mentioned in another post, that this phrase is used several times in Daniel. But notice another way in which a kind of "transition" is noted in this chpt--with phrases saying something like, "shall one stand up in his estate". IOW, it would be kind of easy to just say that "he"... "he"... "he"... "he" is speaking of the same "he" throughout the entire chapter, but upon closer examination, these kinds of phrases show differing "he's" lol.

So as I see it (and I'm not alone in this view), there is no need for the passage to state at verse 36, something that v.16 had already just stated of [that] someone: "shall do according to his own will" (which most commentators view as being "A4E"--v.16--and I agree); I almost look at this phrase and picture something like when our Presidents take office and they are shown sitting down and signing a bunch of papers that put into place things that the preceding President hadn't (this is a *new* administration, and different things are going to be "according to his own will" or the way HE is going to have the administration directed... if that makes sense).

Then, when one aligns what is said about this person (vv.36-37) and notice how they correspond with both Daniel 7:20,25a and that of Rev13:5-7,1, as well as 2Th2:4a, 9-10a (etc), then this is just further confirmation to me that v.36 is indeed the "break" / transition point of the passage. And that's beside the point I'd also made in that other post, how the latter part of chpt 11 is joined to chpt 12 with the words in 12:1 saying "at THAT time" (chpt 12 is the 2nd half of the future Trib yrs... Daniel [and all OT saints] will be "resurrected ['to stand again' (on the earth)]" at that point in time, FOR the earthly MK age).

Hope that helps you see a little of my perspective on this point.

Hope I didn't leave anything out that I'd hoped to cover. Haha.

Thank you for your patience. = )

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 24, 2023

^ To add to that last point (but I ran out of EDIT time):

Jesus, when referencing "the abomination [singular] of desolation [singular] spoken of by Daniel the prophet," could have only been referencing the mention in Daniel 12:11 ("abomination [singular] of desolation [singular] SET UP [H5414]").

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 24, 2023

^ Another commentator adds, about A4E - "He shall raise himself above every god, not merely "subjectively in his lofty imagination" (Hitzig), but also by his actions. כּל־אל, every god, not merely the God of Israel, but also the gods of the heathen. This does not agree with Antiochus. The ἰσόθεα φρονεῖν ὑπερηφανῶς which is said of him, 2 Macc. 9:12, is not an exalting of himself above every god. "Antiochus was not an ἄθεος; he even wished to render the worship of Zeus universal; and that he once spoiled the temple does not imply his raising himself above every god" (Klief.)" - Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament

So, there's that... = )

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 24, 2023

@KeithB 's Post #1168,

Consider what I'd put in another thread, regarding that passage in Ezek13:

Post #3507 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4578261

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 24, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

Sorry, typed that latter part too fast... meant the other "Antiochus"... the Great (prior to "A4E"), lol

[need more coffeeeeeeee]

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 24, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

I hope you recall I mean that they'll be "resurrected" at the END of the "2nd half" (not at the v.1 point in the chronology; vv.2-3 aren't speaking of a bodily / physical resurrection from the dead... as I've mentioned in many past posts... like v.13 IS referring to.)

KeithB · Mar 24, 2023

glf said:

No matter what anyone believes regarding how the tribulation will play out; Mt 24: 21, 22 "For then shall be the great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened;" tells us, all by itself, that no one will be able to know the day or the hour, even if their understanding for the end times is exactly correct. **Oops this was for the post before this one...**

Do you know what that time has been shortened to and where you can find it in the bible?

glf · Mar 24, 2023

KeithB said:

Hey Keith...
Nope! Which is my point: that verse alone keeps everyone from knowing the day or the hour.

glf · Mar 24, 2023

glf said:

I did note that John was told not to tell us what the last vial judgement was going to be in Rev, which may correspond to that shorting of those days...

Evmur · Mar 24, 2023

cv5 said:

You missed a few translations that properly include the definite article.....

New Living Translation
And I said to him, “Sir, you are the one who knows.” Then he said to me, “These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.

English Standard Version
I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Berean Standard Bible
“Sir,” I answered, “you know.” So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Berean Literal Bible
And I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

New King James Version
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

New American Standard Bible
I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

NASB 1995
I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

NASB 1977
And I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Legacy Standard Bible
And I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Amplified Bible
I said to him, “My lord, you know [the answer].” And he said to me, “These are the people who come out of the great tribulation (persecution), and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb [because of His atoning sacrifice].

Christian Standard Bible
I said to him, “Sir, you know.” Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I said to him, “Sir, you know.” Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

American Standard Version
And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

oops

these are surely martyrs of the Great Tribulation

you said they would not go through it but the scriptures you quote say they will.

TheDivineWatermark · Mar 24, 2023

Evmur said:

"Gentiles" most certainly will go through the tribulation period, and many of them will be coming to faith in/within/during that future specific limited time-period (as will many of the "Jews / Israel").

It is "the Church which is His body" that will not be present on the earth during that future time-period... that has alone been promised "Rapture [SNATCH]" ("OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"... that is, "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR")

[trace out (in Scripture) the THREE mentioned here: "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God " - 1Cor10:32]

Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?

Active member

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Banned

Active member

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member