Why Moses and Elijah were at the transfiguration.

[VARob]

It's actually the reason for my conversion to what I consider "truth" today. The idea of fallen angel theology never sat well with me

Thanks. Do you fellowship with Christadelphians? They're Unitarian, but they do not believe the devil is a sentient being. I'm a Unitarian, but I definitely believe there is a devil, and evil angels that chose to follow him. Demons, if you will...

I do not talk about being a Unitarian much on this forum because the powers that run this forum, and most of the participants, are staunch Trinitarians. If you speak too much against the Trinity, or against the deity of Christ, you'll be banned. I'm prepared to be banned if it comes to that... But that's why I generally lay low on the topic. There's plenty of other things to talk about. Like annihiliationism vs the "immortal soul." Most people here are firmly in the "immortal soul" camp, but at least they don't ban you for discussing it.

There's my "cards on the table." How about yours?

as the idea of a tainted reward given by God didn't make sense.

I don't know what you mean by that.

How can a person be rewarded with immortality and eternity only to have free will to sin perpetually?

Why do you think we'll "sin perpetually"? We'll definitely have free will, but we'll no longer have our sin nature.

Anyway, I began to test the Christian belief in this imagined agent of evil, and well, it came up very short.

The study is a rewarding one as it opens up the understanding of many texts, which have been corrupted with these philosophical notions that stem back to ANE times.

We have crossed over a lot of themes already in this thread, so I will resist starting a new topic here.

I do not understand how anyone, by studying the scriptures, could come to the conclusion that the devil is not a sentient being.

 

[F2F]

Thanks. Do you fellowship with Christadelphians? They're Unitarian, but they do not believe the devil is a sentient being. I'm a Unitarian, but I definitely believe there is a devil, and evil angels that chose to follow him. Demons, if you will...

I do not talk about being a Unitarian much on this forum because the powers that run this forum, and most of the participants, are staunch Trinitarians. If you speak too much against the Trinity, or against the deity of Christ, you'll be banned. I'm prepared to be banned if it comes to that... But that's why I generally lay low on the topic. There's plenty of other things to talk about. Like annihiliationism vs the "immortal soul." Most people here are firmly in the "immortal soul" camp, but at least they don't ban you for discussing it.

There's my "cards on the table." How about yours?


I don't know what you mean by that.


Why do you think we'll "sin perpetually"? We'll definitely have free will, but we'll no longer have our sin nature.


I do not understand how anyone, by studying the scriptures, could come to the conclusion that the devil is not a sentient being.

Thanks for the honesty. As you can imagine, I've been banned from many forums over the past 15 years, also due to being a Unitarian. In the beginning I considered fringe communities such as the Mormons, JW's and eventually explored mainstream Christianity in the Baptists. I know of the Christadelphains, but today I spend a lot of time teaching Christians about the original Gospel, as taught by Christ's Apostles.

Fallen angel theology is full of holes and most try in vain to use the Revelation to support their beliefs, always the first sign of a novice. OT is silent on the subject and the Law has nothing at all! Most twist small sections in the Major Prophets but context removes their arguments very quickly. In the end you have a few scant references to misunderstood Greek words in the Gospel books, but other than that it's really some well imagine notions which misguided folks force on the text.

You can try if you might - start a new thread...I'm always happy to discuss this subject to any who is interested.

In the Masters service
F2F

 

[Cameron143]

It depends on how you load that question?

I appreciate that response because often people will misconstrue one's answer to fit their own narrative. So I'll pose it a different way.
In John 8:24 He says unless you believe that I am He, ye shall die in your sins.
When Jesus said I am He, He was making Himself equal to God. And the implication is that anyone not believing Jesus is God is not saved; hence, not a Christian.
It is in this vein that I am inquiring.

 

[VARob]

Thanks for the honesty. As you can imagine, I've been banned from many forums over the past 15 years, also due to being a Unitarian. In the beginning I considered fringe communities such as the Mormons, JW's and eventually explored mainstream Christianity in the Baptists. I know of the Christadelphains, but today I spend a lot of time teaching Christians about the original Gospel, as taught by Christ's Apostles.

Don't you realize that EVERYONE who thinks they know anything about the Bible or teaches the Bible thinks they do exactly that? No offense, but people who thing they're teaching "the original Gospel as taught by Christ's Apostles" are generally stuffed shirts.

For the record, Christ and his apostles taught a lot about the devil ans spiritual warfare.

Fallen angel theology is full of holes and most try in vain to use the Revelation to support their beliefs, always the first sign of a novice.

The gospels are loaded with records about the devil, and the epistles have things to say about him too.

OT is silent on the subject

Almost...

and the Law has nothing at all!

Do you know why? It's not because the devil or his demons weren't there, but people were not prepared to deal with powerful invisible spirit beings. The gift of holy spirit was only on a relatively few people. In the gospels, Jesus Christ not only declared God (John 1:18), he also made known the devil and the spiritual war we are in.

Most twist small sections in the Major Prophets but context removes their arguments very quickly.

If you're talking about Isa 14 and Eze 28, those sections are indeed talking about satan.

In the end you have a few scant references to misunderstood Greek words in the Gospel books, but other than that it's really some well imagine notions which misguided folks force on the text.

lol.. Thanks for your opinion. I completely disagree.

You can try if you might - start a new thread...I'm always happy to discuss this subject to any who is interested.

In the Masters service
F2F

We'll see how it rolls.

 

[Lifted_by_the_word]

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me.(The Covenants+the Holy Spirit)

John 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.(water and blood)

Revelation 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.(Two Witnesses)

 

[posthuman]

When Jesus deflected the title of good master to Him who alone is Good you ought to understand why he did this!

You could add to the Lords reply NOT ONE! is good!

now you say Jesus is not good?
you say He is evil?

 

[posthuman]

He became good

so your position is that Jesus was evil?

 

[posthuman]

The Bible story is rather simple

disagree.

Proverbs 1:22
How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge.

the scripture is incredibly complex and multi-layered, more profound than any other book in the history of human existence.

 

[posthuman]

But if he couldn't sin, then he was neither tempted nor tested.

You can certainly test something that does not fail. It's called proving.

Say you build a porch. Then you walk on it to 'test' whether it is built well. You don't do that with the idea that it's going to collapse under you but with the idea that it certainly won't.

 

[posthuman]

There are two (2) verses that may be used to support the belief that Jesus Christ raised himself from the dead, and a couple dozen verses that plainly and clearly say that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Do the math.

If Jesus raised himself from the dead, was he really dead? And if Jesus wasn't really dead, did he really pay the price for our sins?

Here's another couple witnesses for you:

Hebrews 7:15-16
And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.

John 10:18
No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.

John 11:25
I AM The Resurrection and The Life.


The testimony of 2 is sufficient.

Here is the math: the Bible is not self contradictory nor is it incorrect.
He both raised Himself and God raised Him.
The reconciliation of these things is that He Himself is God.

Welcome to trinitarianism.

Yes, He died. Literally.
Physical death is not cessation of existence.

 

[posthuman]

But if he couldn't sin, then he was neither tempted nor tested.

If you drop something you have tested gravity.
Do you expect gravity to fail?
Just because an object does fall, being pulled to the mass of the earth, would you deny that gravity can be tested?

When those in Berea 'tested' the gospel that was preached to them by searching the scripture, was it possible God's word could fail?

 

[posthuman]

Christ was teaching not only about himself and the latent desire to sin with him

Jesus rather famously taught on the mount that desire to sin is equivalent to carrying out that sin.

Paul reiterates it as a second witness - learn the word 'covet' it's spelled c o v e t

 

[posthuman]

I guess I need to unpack this for you.

Jesus here was referring to the religious rulers as per 1 Corinthians 2:7-8

John 14:30 is definitely before the cross, refers to "the ruler of this world" singular, not plural, and it was not a group of worldly princes who came to seize Him but Judas with Satan inside him.
i.e. the singular ruler of this world.

your 'unpacking' of this isn't defensible IMO.

 

[VARob]

You can certainly test something that does not fail. It's called proving.

There is no need to prove something if it's not possible for it to fail.

Say you build a porch. Then you walk on it to 'test' whether it is built well. You don't do that with the idea that it's going to collapse under you but with the idea that it certainly won't.

If it "certainly won't," then why test it?

 

[VARob]

Here's another couple witnesses for you:

Hebrews 7:15-16
And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.

Jesus' life is indestructible now. He was raised immortal, never to die again.

John 10:18
No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.

Yes, that is one of the two scriptures used to support the idea that Jesus Christ raised himself from the dead.

John 11:25
I AM The Resurrection and The Life.

Yes, it is through Jesus Christ that anyone will receive life in the age to come.

The testimony of 2 is sufficient.

Here is the math: the Bible is not self contradictory nor is it incorrect.

Agreed.

He both raised Himself and God raised Him.

If Jesus raised himself, then he wasn't dead.

The reconciliation of these things is that He Himself is God.

So God died?

Welcome to trinitarianism.

......

Yes, He died. Literally.
Physical death is not cessation of existence.

And therein lies the crux of the problem. People do not understand what death is. It stems from the belief that the soul/spirit is immortal.

 

[cv5]

I've been banned from many forums over the past 15 years, also due to being a Unitarian

Well......this thread has finally borne fruit. I was looking for this kind of admission from you.

Remember this post?
https://christianchat.com/threads/w...re-at-the-transfiguration.209906/post-5038130

I laid out my own beliefs early on, completely and sincerely in the spirit of full disclosure. You, on the other hand did not.
Until we got 26 pages into the thread. Funny how "unorthodox views" are invariably shot thru with intentional deception around here.

 

[cv5]

Anyway, I began to test the Christian belief in this imagined agent of evil, and well, it came up very short.

Maybe it was YOU that came up short?
BTW, the truth of "fallen angels" is Biblically boilerplate.

 

[cv5]

It stems from the belief that the soul/spirit is immortal.

You do not believe that the "soul/spirit" is immortal?

 

[VARob]

You do not believe that the "soul/spirit" is immortal?

No.

When a person dies, the person is dead. All of him, not just his body. His thoughts perish, his emotions cease, he cannot praise God. He is dead. This is why the coming rapture (for Christians) and resurrections are so vital. If they do not happen, all who have died are perished. Gone. 1 Cor 15:12-18.

Gotta run for now... But will continue the discussion later, if you like.

 

[Magenta]

If it "certainly won't," then why test it?

Jesus submitted His will to the Father in all things, and so did not fail.