Salvation is for the Whole World

[ForestGreenCook]

I'm not sure they contend at all with that. I don't think they believe that.

My contention is that this is a MUCH more difficult issue to unravel than most think.

I have asked before, and gotten some interesting answers, about WHERE our faith comes from if it is not a gift from God. We know it is ACTIVATED upon hearing the Word, but that doesn't explain where it comes from, and if EVERYONE has it, why doesn't EVERYONE believe?

Heishere honestly said in effect that he is smarter than others, in that he was persuaded that it is true:

"Faith comes from being persuaded something is true.

Seems to me scripture answers your question quite clearly, “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Rom 10:17).

If we are called to put our faith in Jesus how can that faith be a gift, seems obvious to me it is something we have to do.

Why does scripture tells us the Gospel is simple, that faith a small as mustard seed can move a mountain.

Why does God require faith if He has to give it to us?"

Our faith, that comes as a fruit of the Holy Spirit, can save the born again person in many different ways, as he sojourns here in this world.


I believe that the failure to understand that salvation=deliverance, saved=delivered, and save=deliver, according to Greek translation, causes a lot of confusion about what we are delivered from.

Those that God gave to his Son, are delivered from the second death, which is hell, by being redeemed on the cross by the sacrifice of Jesus.

Those same redeemed people, after God quickens them, both old testament saints, and new testament saints, are delivered (saved) from the consequences of their sin upon repenting of the sin.

The natural man, before he has been quickened to the new spiritual life, will not repent of breaking a spiritual law that he does not discern, and thinks it to be foolishness. (1 Cor 2:14). Only those who have been born again will repent.

 

[PennEd]

It does not have to come from outside oneself, that is the assumption and preconceived idea that you bring.

I actually believe the OPPOSITE.

I believe, just as the Word in Ephesians tells us, that our faith is a GIFT, given by God, activated upon hearing the Word.

Tell me where in the post did I state I was smarter,

If I am persuaded by something, it means I have the intellect to hear the argument and decide it's merit.

It's the SAME question. Why were YOU able to be persuaded, but others weren't?

I am still waiting for your answer.

I have no idea what question you asked that you are still waiting on.

 

[HeIsHere]

I actually believe the OPPOSITE.

I believe, just as the Word in Ephesians tells us, that our faith is a GIFT, given by God, activated upon hearing the Word.

If I am persuaded by something, it means I have the intellect to hear the argument and decide it's merit.

It's the SAME question. Why were YOU able to be persuaded, but others weren't?


I have no idea what question you asked that you are still waiting on.

The grammar of Koine Greek does not support that faith is the gift, salvation is the gift, that is what Jesus accomplished on our behalf.

So there is that, but no one wants to accept that truth because the internet/churches are flooded with the false doctrine of TULIP.

The Gospel is not about intellect, it is actually the opposite.

And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

If you believe that "saving faith" is a gift of God then you are in the position of God granting faith to some and not to others which means some people were created with no ability to believe and denied salvation.

That is the logical conclusion. You can believe that if you wish but it is not biblical.

Faith is being persuaded something is true. That's it.

 

[HeIsHere]

It takes a cold heart to say that God wants to save all of mankind to heaven, but that he just does not have the power over mankind to accomplish his will (Dan 4:35).

Eternal salvation was accomplished, not offered, by Jesus redeeming all of those that His Father gave to him on the cross, and his work was finished on the cross, as far as eternal redemption is concerned, (John 6:39).

No, I did not state He does not have the power. That is your straw man.

God in His sovereignty has set the condition for salvation....the condition is believing on His Son for the gift of salvation.

Those are His terms.

TULIP people deny God's sovereignty.

 

[Mem]

Faith is being persuaded something is true. That's it.

I don't want to argue this but, if we defined faith more succinctly, it would be a stronger point of defense, and I'm not sure that faith has anything to do with 'being persuaded' as much as ' believing something even if the result might be risking one's exposure to detrimental consequences," u gnaw what I mean? IOW, the reward of faith, gift of the holy spirit, follows the offering of faith, rather than faith following the gift of the holy spirit. And it is by the holy spirit that "testifies with our spirit we are sons of God, and by whom we cry, 'Abba, Father!'"

So in effect, Father says, 'take the leap toward me, I will catch you," while looking, to us, as if He isn't even 'at hand,' we throw caution to the wind and take the leap, and He catches us and we (both Father and child) are overcome with a wave of laugher and delight.

 

[PennEd]

The grammar of Koine Greek does not support that faith is the gift, salvation is the gift, that is what Jesus accomplished on our behalf.

Yes. We have been over this. The "that" in the passage UNQUESTIONABLY is referring to the faith as the gift. That is why this question of WHERE your faith comes from is so vital.
You have yet to address the point that "Grace" does NOT need a qualifier of being labeled a gift, as the word ITSELF means that it is an unmerited gift.

The Gospel is not about intellect, it is actually the opposite.

I absolutely agree. But if you are being "persuaded" of something, you are using your intellect.

So for the umpteenth time, WHY were YOU persuaded, yet others who heard the word weren't?

And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Yes! Born again Children actually. Tell me what you did to facilitate your physical birth? Nothing! So why do you think you did ANYTHING to facilitate your Spiritual birth?

you believe that "saving faith" is a gift of God then you are in the position of God granting faith to some and not to others which means some people were created with no ability to believe and denied salvation.

That is the logical conclusion. You can believe that if you wish but it is not biblical.

Faith is UNQUESTIONABLY a gift of God, but I'm not going to question HIs Motives, or use my human logic and intellect to answer matters that should be left to Him. In my human mind, I can say things like "God is not fair!" The Book of Job is full of that stuff. Till God showed up. Then ALL mouths were silent.

I just know from the Word, AND from personal experience, that there was no way I was coming to God without the faith He provided me. I was on a course for destruction until He drew me, I heard the Gospel, and believed. As a Child would. I KNEW it was true. There was no persuasion. I just KNEW it was true.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You are misinterpreting the scripture you are using to back that statement up. The natural man will not call upon spiritual things

Lol yeah

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

If the scriptures do not harmonize, then you do not understand the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The "all" is limited to "those that his Father gave him" (John 6:39).

There are far too many Scripture that are against what you claim is right. You are making a theology out of one Scripture then telling me it doesn't harmonize.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

If you do not see spiritual Israel in reading the scriptures that I referred to you, then you must be blinded to see the truths in Christ's doctrine.

I asked a very specific question. You didn't answer it, you answered your own question.

 

[NOV25]

So, is someone saved by grace as you said above, or not?

I’ve learned it’s best not to bother with the emotional one’s, the ones that call “the God of Calvin a monster”… These typically grew up in the church, made a profession of faith as a teen back in the 80’s then lived like heathens for a few decades. Now they’re on here babbling about being Christian since 1982…

These folks sit in deacon and elder seats, no wonder the church is a mess.

 

[rogerg]

I’ve learned it’s best not to bother with the emotional one’s, the ones that call “the God of Calvin a monster”… These typically grew up in the church, made a profession of faith as a teen back in the 80’s then lived like heathens for a few decades. Now they’re on here babbling about being Christian since 1982…

These folks sit in deacon and elder seats, no wonder the church is a mess.

Yeah, thanks, I hear what you're saying and am getting to that point. However,
sometimes it is difficult to refrain - but I'm trying to work on it,

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The "world" could never mean the "elect" in the following verses:
1. John 1:10 The world knew him not
2. John 7:7 The world hates Christ
3. John 8:23 The world consists of the unsaved Jews

Even though he came to save the world and is able to save them all has offered then salvation this is how it’s going to be accomplished only some are going to be saved

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Some people are going to be saved from the world through the gospel it’s for anyone that believes his propitiation we learn about in the gospel is for the whole world but much of the world rejects it he’s not going to save the ones who refuse to repent and believe the gospel

if we reject Jesus and the gospel we’re lost and there’s no saving us if we repent and believe Jesus and the gospel there’s no condemning us

If we convince ourselves “ I cant repent and believe the gospel , I have no choice “ we’re shackling ourself from making the right choice

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No, I did not state He does not have the power. That is your straw man.

God in His sovereignty has set the condition for salvation....the condition is believing on His Son for the gift of salvation.

Those are His terms.

TULIP people deny God's sovereignty.

I usually give scripture with my comments, it would be helpful if you would do also.

The natural man, before he has been born again, cannot believe spiritual things.(1 Cor 2:14).

Show me where the scriptures say that eternal salvation is a gift.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

There are far too many Scripture that are against what you claim is right. You are making a theology out of one Scripture then telling me it doesn't harmonize.

Give me the scriptures that you say is against what I claim is right, and I will explain them to you.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I asked a very specific question. You didn't answer it, you answered your own question.

My answer was in the scriptures that I quoted to you. If you do not understand them, then you must be blinded to see the truth.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Not saying they are right or wrong, only that a Calvinist would say that the "whole world" would refer to the whole ELECT world, gentile or Jew around the world, NOT just in Israel, or the Roman Provinces, for all times.

I heard prominent Calvinist R.C. Sproul say that if 1 John 2:2 means exactly what it says, then Calvinism is wrong.

Which is practically speaking of no importance at all. "Calvinism is "Just another" theological systematic among many. "Theology" never SAVED anybody.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I’ve learned it’s best not to bother with the emotional one’s, the ones that call “the God of Calvin a monster”… These typically grew up in the church, made a profession of faith as a teen back in the 80’s then lived like heathens for a few decades. Now they’re on here babbling about being Christian since 1982…

These folks sit in deacon and elder seats, no wonder the church is a mess.

The lost sheep of the house of Israel is in a mess. The remnant of the house of Israel, which is the visible church, is not in a mess. They trust in the name of the Lord (Zeph 3:12-13).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The "world" could never mean the "elect" in the following verses:
1. John 1:10 The world knew him not
2. John 7:7 The world hates Christ
3. John 8:23 The world consists of the unsaved Jews

That is because the scriptures teach that there is a world that God loves, and there is a world that God hates. (Rom 9:11, among others). That is what God is teaching his children, but most of them will not accept the truth, and cling to eternal salvation by their good works.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Amen. Salvation has been made freely available to all who will humbly receive. The price has been paid in full.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Two, intirly, different worlds. One God loves, and the other he hates.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Amen repentance is the call to all
People

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I have explained both of these scriptures to you, but you have turned a blind eye to them. Until you give up your belief that eternal deliverance is not gained by your good works, and repent, you will continue to be blind to seeing the truth.