Saddleback Church Ousted from Southern Baptist Convention Over Female Pastor

[Nehemiah6]

...and therefore did not fulfill the requirements to be an elder.

Paul NEVER CLAIMED to be an elder. You probably have an incorrect idea of who the elders were in the NT churches, and what was their role. Paul was constantly on the move establishing churches and revisiting them. In modern parlance he would be called a Missionary and a Church Planter. That is not the role of elders.

 

[cv5]

Paul NEVER CLAIMED to be an elder. You probably have an incorrect idea of who the elders were in the NT churches, and what was their role. Paul was constantly on the move establishing churches and revisiting them. In modern parlance he would be called a Missionary and a Church Planter. That is not the role of elders.

Well he wasn't a junior or a learner thats for sure.
He was many things including an elder. Its ridiculous to think otherwise.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I think you lost this round bro. There is plenty of NT evidence that marriage was not mandatory for elders or pastors.

OK so now we have to go back to Scripture as THE FINAL AUTHORITY. The terms elder (Gk presbuteros) and bishop (Gk episkopos) are interchangeable as seen in the epistles. Rarely are they called "pastors" (Gk poimen) but their function is pastor/elder/bishops.

1 TIMOTHY 3: ELDERS AND DEACONS MUST BE MARRIED MEN WITH CHILDREN
1This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop [another term for elder], he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

If Scripture is not the FINAL AUTHORITY for Christians, we might as well all throw up our hands and go home.

 

[Magenta]

Paul NEVER CLAIMED to be an elder. You probably have an incorrect idea of who
the elders were in the NT churches, and what was their role. Paul was constantly
on the move establishing churches and revisiting them. In modern parlance he
would be called a Missionary and a Church Planter. That is not the role of elders.

Paul appointed elders.

You may find this read helpful -

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/christian-elders-in-the-new-testament

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

So you have no problem with false teacher Rick Warren? Amazing.

Rick Warren’s Deception Strikes Widely
https://bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/RickWarren.htm

 

[Dino246]

I said nothing about "a monopoly". But the metaphor "feed the flock" applies to the preaching and teaching of the Word, and that is precisely what Peter says. If God called someone to be an elder he also provide him with the spiritual gift to function as an elder.

You didn't use the word 'monopoly', but you clearly implied it:

But the ministry of the Word is reserved for the elders (or pastor/elder/bishops) as shepherds and overseers of the flock.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

EVERYBODY is a "False teacher" to somebody else. I've been shedding "Southern Baptist" baggage for decades, myself.

 

[Dino246]

You would have to convince me that Timothy, who definitely was a pastor, was in fact married. And worse, you would have to convince me that the Apostle John (who was also an elder and pastor) was married! There is no reason to believe so in either case.
Also.....what of widowers? Should the wife die, is he immediately disqualified?

Furthermore, the requirement regarding marriage is as follows:

Tit 1:6
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
1Ti 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:12
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Polygamy was the issue at hand. Not the fact of being married itself.

2Jo 1:1
This letter is from John, the elder (presbyteros ).
I am writing to the chosen lady and to her children, whom I love in the truth—as does everyone else who knows the truth—
3Jo 1:1
This letter is from John, the elder (presbyteros ).
I am writing to Gaius, my dear friend, whom I love in the truth.

You treat the issue of marital status with lenience, but are strict regarding gender. That's inconsistent. Were you to be consistent you would either recognize that Paul does not preclude females from being elders/deacons, or you would require that elders/deacons be married and have children and have demonstrably "ruly" households.

 

[cv5]

OK so now we have to go back to Scripture as THE FINAL AUTHORITY. The terms elder (Gk presbuteros) and bishop (Gk episkopos) are interchangeable as seen in the epistles. Rarely are they called "pastors" (Gk poimen) but their function is pastor/elder/bishops.

1 TIMOTHY 3: ELDERS AND DEACONS MUST BE MARRIED MEN WITH CHILDREN
1This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop [another term for elder], he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

If Scripture is not the FINAL AUTHORITY for Christians, we might as well all throw up our hands and go home.

Key phrase "one wife". You just cannot miss it. There is no verse stipulating a marriage requirement. Anywhere.
The specification is IF you are married THEN.....IF you have a family THEN.....

Eisegesis ( / ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs /) is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text.

I will do some homework and try and find out about the marital status of the Church Fathers. See if that helps.

 

[Beckie]

A small amount of internet research for what that is worth...
The early Bibles did not use the word deaconess. The word used was servant . Deacon for Phoebe was not used until the NIV was printed late 70s .

I would be interested in Bible scholar's thoughts and references on the subject.

 

[brighthouse98]

When a woman becomes the head of the Church, the men might as well put a dress on!! This goes against everything the Word of God teaches. (1 Cor 14:34-36!) also (1 Tim 2:12-15) very clear what a woman's place in the Church is!! I do not understand why some Churches go against the truth! Now about woman being silent, we have women in our church who prophesy. no problem there! But the office of Pastor is never for a woman! If this is a bit strong it is meant to be! Nuts! No wonder people are not going to church anymore. sad!!

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

There isn’t a single verse that prohibits a woman from being a pastor. Perhaps you should read more carefully.

When you consider the ratio of bad male leaders in Scripture to good male leaders, and bad female leaders to good ones, you might change your view. There is no biblical support for the idea that God raises females to leadership only when no suitable men are available. Don’t make doctrine from narrative.

We went over all this already. We've given both sides for the readers to consider. Have a great day!

 

[JohnDB]

We went over all this already. We've given both sides for the readers to consider. Have a great day!

Oh there's nothing like repeating yourself a dozen times or more because the more you repeat yourself the more you actually believe the nonsense you spout.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

I recall my husband talking about this some time back while doing some research. I'm not sure where he found it, or who he heard it from (you know very well how information quickly gets scrubbed, hidden and removed from the web) so when this thread came up I went to try and do some research myself. When I went to search I found this link (from Dec 2019), which talks about his wife, Kay Warren
https://www.nowtheendbegins.com/pro...th-moore-attack-president-trump-george-soros/

I did just find this link.
You have to scroll way down past images and icons, but there is a list of various links, Warren is listed as being the focus in several of them. (I have not had, nor currently have time to check them myself)
https://timetofreeamerica.com/renting-religious-leaders/

Thank you so much for this post! Really helpful and informative!!!

 

[ZNP]

. 42 And Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they who are accounted to rule over the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great ones exercise authority over them. 43 But it is not so among you: but whosoever would become great among you, shall be your minister; 44 and whosoever would be first among you, shall be servant of all. 45 For the Son of man also came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

That is some truly incomprehensible unbiblical bafflegab. Sorry to say......

😄

 

[Godsgirl1983]

Gee, for a minute there I thought you were talking about parenting.

Oh there's nothing like repeating yourself a dozen times or more because the more you repeat yourself...

 

[JohnDB]

Gee, for a minute there I thought you were talking about parenting.

ROFL....
See children and forum members are a lot alike....
You repeat yourself and lip service is paid but since no thought is applied to what was said they just continue on as if they never heard.

 

[ZNP]

ROFL....
See children and forum members are a lot alike....
You repeat yourself and lip service is paid but since no thought is applied to what was said they just continue on as if they never heard.

That is what God says in Leviticus 26 about us.

 

[ZNP]

Hey if women want to be the ones protecting the flock go for it.