Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace
- Thread starter IsaiahA
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
You still are missing the point
Gods love can do whatever it wants. And yet he still be soverign
Your saying God is not soverign if he choses to give his salvation to those who believe out of love
I am saying i can not agree. God can do both and still be all loving and perfectly soverign.
in reality, you are holding back gods soverignty, your the one limiting him, not me.
Gods love can do whatever it wants. And yet he still be soverign
Your saying God is not soverign if he choses to give his salvation to those who believe out of love
I am saying i can not agree. God can do both and still be all loving and perfectly soverign.
in reality, you are holding back gods soverignty, your the one limiting him, not me.
-
1
- Show all
the point is that Cain was given a choice ...
God knowing Cain would not choose to do "well" does not negate the fact that Cain could have chosen to do "well" ... and he would have been accepted.
"Adam had a will that was constrained by God's authority" ... if that was the case, Adam would not have eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because God's will was that Adam not eat:
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it
According to your statement that "Adam had a will that was constrained by God's authority", then God constrained Adam to eat ... thereby contradicting what He told Adam (don't eat).
I believe our problem is that we do exactly as we "will or desire".
We place our own will above God's Will and that's the problem.
Come judgment day, each and every person will stand before God and give an account and each person will know why he or she will be cast into the lake of fire.*
And it has nothing to do with God not having "chosen" him or her to damnation in eternity past. It has everything to do with the person placing his or her own will above God's Will.
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
vs 18 - the words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to suppress, restrain.
vs 19 - God reveals Himself to each and every person during the course of his or her lifetime and each person has an opportunity to not suppress or restrain the truth in unrighteousness.
vs 20 - there is no excuse in restraining the truth concerning God's eternal power and Godhead.
In claiming that people are chosen to damnation (I'm not saying you do this ... but some folks hold to that belief), there is an excuse because the person can claim that they did exactly as God "chose" for them ... to remain in sinful disobedience to Him. And to be honest, if that is the case, they are more "faithful" to God than the so-called "chosen elect" because believers sin all the time.
*for the believer, we all know we deserve God's judgment, but we have trusted in/believed the truth (i.e. we did not restrain the truth in unrighteousness) ... thank God for that Advocate Who will stand with us
.
God knowing Cain would not choose to do "well" does not negate the fact that Cain could have chosen to do "well" ... and he would have been accepted.
"Adam had a will that was constrained by God's authority" ... if that was the case, Adam would not have eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because God's will was that Adam not eat:
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it
According to your statement that "Adam had a will that was constrained by God's authority", then God constrained Adam to eat ... thereby contradicting what He told Adam (don't eat).
I believe our problem is that we do exactly as we "will or desire".
We place our own will above God's Will and that's the problem.
Come judgment day, each and every person will stand before God and give an account and each person will know why he or she will be cast into the lake of fire.*
And it has nothing to do with God not having "chosen" him or her to damnation in eternity past. It has everything to do with the person placing his or her own will above God's Will.
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
vs 18 - the words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to suppress, restrain.
vs 19 - God reveals Himself to each and every person during the course of his or her lifetime and each person has an opportunity to not suppress or restrain the truth in unrighteousness.
vs 20 - there is no excuse in restraining the truth concerning God's eternal power and Godhead.
In claiming that people are chosen to damnation (I'm not saying you do this ... but some folks hold to that belief), there is an excuse because the person can claim that they did exactly as God "chose" for them ... to remain in sinful disobedience to Him. And to be honest, if that is the case, they are more "faithful" to God than the so-called "chosen elect" because believers sin all the time.
*for the believer, we all know we deserve God's judgment, but we have trusted in/believed the truth (i.e. we did not restrain the truth in unrighteousness) ... thank God for that Advocate Who will stand with us
.
We were talking about romans 1.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, [l]sexual immorality, wickedness, [m]covetousness, [n]maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 [o]undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, [p]unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Which is exactly what I said it said.
Your corinthians past is inconsequential. I have never said we can understand the gospel apart from Gods hEli. So there is nothing to rebut.. all you keep doing is prov you have not heard a word I have said.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, [l]sexual immorality, wickedness, [m]covetousness, [n]maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 [o]undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, [p]unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Which is exactly what I said it said.
Your corinthians past is inconsequential. I have never said we can understand the gospel apart from Gods hEli. So there is nothing to rebut.. all you keep doing is prov you have not heard a word I have said.
Thanks bro. I'm not quite sure if I am satisfied......more honestly I simply do not want to be corralled into error!
Just as I take the positions I take with a tremendous sense of trembling and concern. It is my only desire, to honor God with what I may share. I could care less if it hair lips the Governor as long as it carries the Truth of God's Word. That His name is exalted and Glorified.
I always know the risk I am taking when I speak for God's Truth. If I am wrong, and hurt the cause of Christ, then I should suffer loss. I pray, that this is not the case.
-
1
- Show all
Lol
so you too are going to blame shift and falsly accuse instead of just discussing.
I am not angry at all my friend. I am having a blast. i love these discussions.. I love them more when they turn out the same time after time after time, its like I can prophecy how a discussion will end, and the prophesy will come true..
so you too are going to blame shift and falsly accuse instead of just discussing.
I am not angry at all my friend. I am having a blast. i love these discussions.. I love them more when they turn out the same time after time after time, its like I can prophecy how a discussion will end, and the prophesy will come true..
Lets all just keep preaching the Gospel of Christ with a hopeful heart, knowing God's calling will not be in vain. That's all the control we have over the present situation after all. Whatever possesses mans heart, free will or not, is simply not on the table as far as us properly executing the great commission is concerned.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Okay. So you do not agree with the definition of free will:
Free will is defined as: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
This is the common definition in most dictionaries. It varies from the philosophical definition slightly. However, the two major points here are: 1) To be free of the constraint of necessity. It's pretty easy to see that our will won't fit that description. Our will is influenced by necessity. By necessity, because we must carry out certain choices in order to survive. Additionally, our choices are limited by our means. In Scripture, our choices are limited by our fallen nature. We love sin. We are slaves of sin. Therefore, our will is constrained by our nature, our authority and our means. 2) Whether we are constrained by "fate" is arguable.
Therefore, man has a will - he may chose - but it is not free. It is constrained.
Free will is defined as: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
This is the common definition in most dictionaries. It varies from the philosophical definition slightly. However, the two major points here are: 1) To be free of the constraint of necessity. It's pretty easy to see that our will won't fit that description. Our will is influenced by necessity. By necessity, because we must carry out certain choices in order to survive. Additionally, our choices are limited by our means. In Scripture, our choices are limited by our fallen nature. We love sin. We are slaves of sin. Therefore, our will is constrained by our nature, our authority and our means. 2) Whether we are constrained by "fate" is arguable.
Therefore, man has a will - he may chose - but it is not free. It is constrained.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
who’s defenition? Yours? No I do not agree with it
I chose to act out of necessity or fate all the time. When I chose right. I am blessed. When i chose wrong, I suffer.
not sure where you got this defenition.
I do not get my bible knowledge from a dictionary.
I get it from the word.
God said chose this day who you will serve. Free will
God said of this tree you will never eat - free will
God said he wanted to gather Jerusalem as a city together and me a mother to them, but they were unwilling, free will
God said he sent his son, that whoever believes will never die, but live forever. Free will
I can go on and on and on
I chose to act out of necessity or fate all the time. When I chose right. I am blessed. When i chose wrong, I suffer.
not sure where you got this defenition.
I do not get my bible knowledge from a dictionary.
I get it from the word.
God said chose this day who you will serve. Free will
God said of this tree you will never eat - free will
God said he wanted to gather Jerusalem as a city together and me a mother to them, but they were unwilling, free will
God said he sent his son, that whoever believes will never die, but live forever. Free will
I can go on and on and on
-
1
- Show all
the point is that Cain was given a choice ...
God knowing Cain would not choose to do "well" does not negate the fact that Cain could have chosen to do "well" ... and he would have been accepted.
"Adam had a will that was constrained by God's authority" ... if that was the case, Adam would not have eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because God's will was that Adam not eat:
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it
According to your statement that "Adam had a will that was constrained by God's authority", then God constrained Adam to eat ... thereby contradicting what He told Adam (don't eat).
I believe our problem is that we do exactly as we "will or desire".
We place our own will above God's Will and that's the problem.
Come judgment day, each and every person will stand before God and give an account and each person will know why he or she will be cast into the lake of fire.*
And it has nothing to do with God not having "chosen" him or her to damnation in eternity past. It has everything to do with the person placing his or her own will above God's Will.
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
vs 18 - the words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to suppress, restrain.
vs 19 - God reveals Himself to each and every person during the course of his or her lifetime and each person has an opportunity to not suppress or restrain the truth in unrighteousness.
vs 20 - there is no excuse in restraining the truth concerning God's eternal power and Godhead.
In claiming that people are chosen to damnation (I'm not saying you do this ... but some folks hold to that belief), there is an excuse because the person can claim that they did exactly as God "chose" for them ... to remain in sinful disobedience to Him. And to be honest, if that is the case, they are more "faithful" to God than the so-called "chosen elect" because believers sin all the time.
*for the believer, we all know we deserve God's judgment, but we have trusted in/believed the truth (i.e. we did not restrain the truth in unrighteousness) ... thank God for that Advocate Who will stand with us
.
God knowing Cain would not choose to do "well" does not negate the fact that Cain could have chosen to do "well" ... and he would have been accepted.
"Adam had a will that was constrained by God's authority" ... if that was the case, Adam would not have eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because God's will was that Adam not eat:
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it
According to your statement that "Adam had a will that was constrained by God's authority", then God constrained Adam to eat ... thereby contradicting what He told Adam (don't eat).
I believe our problem is that we do exactly as we "will or desire".
We place our own will above God's Will and that's the problem.
Come judgment day, each and every person will stand before God and give an account and each person will know why he or she will be cast into the lake of fire.*
And it has nothing to do with God not having "chosen" him or her to damnation in eternity past. It has everything to do with the person placing his or her own will above God's Will.
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
vs 18 - the words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to suppress, restrain.
vs 19 - God reveals Himself to each and every person during the course of his or her lifetime and each person has an opportunity to not suppress or restrain the truth in unrighteousness.
vs 20 - there is no excuse in restraining the truth concerning God's eternal power and Godhead.
In claiming that people are chosen to damnation (I'm not saying you do this ... but some folks hold to that belief), there is an excuse because the person can claim that they did exactly as God "chose" for them ... to remain in sinful disobedience to Him. And to be honest, if that is the case, they are more "faithful" to God than the so-called "chosen elect" because believers sin all the time.
*for the believer, we all know we deserve God's judgment, but we have trusted in/believed the truth (i.e. we did not restrain the truth in unrighteousness) ... thank God for that Advocate Who will stand with us
.
As to the point I was making about Adam not having the authority, I was referring not to his choice but to the fact, that he could not will the punishment out of existence. God was the Sovereign authority.
-
1
- Show all