Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

[awelight]

Thank you. My issue with being born again before believing is that then means people are saved apart from faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ. What of heart circumcision? Some say we are regenerated then also, but, could not circumcision of the heart precede both coming to believe and regeneration? Making possible our ability to repent, choose rightly, and submit to God by believing the gospel, at which time we are born again and then (simultaneously) sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Unless, of course, born again does not equal salvation. But how can that be?

Those are great questions.

In Scripture, there are two aspects of faith. One, is a person's faith in what God has said. A believing in His promises, that are in His Son. The second, is the System of Faith. This includes God's whole Plan for Salvation. If one truly believes, that God will keep all of His promises, for His namesake; then they should believe that nothing can stop their full and complete Salvation. Therefore, they are in the System of Faith. For as Paul wrote: "If God be for us, then who can be against us." In other words, who can stop us from making it to the end. Those that are in Christ, which the System of Faith is all about and expressly for.

One could argue because God is Sovereign, that once the Father Chose and gave them to the Son - eternity past - the whole of their Salvation was a done deal. After all, who was going to prevent God's purpose. So being Born Anew, Regenerated, could certainly take place before they believed because their believing was guaranteed. However, if one believes that one of God's chosen could be lost, then this will throw a huge darkness over the truth of God's Salvation Plan.

By the way, the new birth, is the same as the circumcision of the heart. A change of nature, that keeps on growing throughout the Christians life. Better known as Conversion and Progressive Sanctification.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Who said he does?

are you a follower of man or a follower of God?

OK. I'll leave you to your anger.

 

[ButterflyJones]

I never said that. Nor do I believe it. In fact I think most Christians know better.

If you read my post again you'll maybe understand what I said.

 

[cv5]

Those are great questions.

In Scripture, there are two aspects of faith. One, is a person's faith in what God has said. A believing in His promises, that are in His Son. The second, is the System of Faith. This includes God's whole Plan for Salvation. If one truly believes, that God will keep all of His promises, for His namesake; then they should believe that nothing can stop their full and complete Salvation. Therefore, they are in the System of Faith. For as Paul wrote: "If God be for us, then who can be against us." In other words, who can stop us from making it to the end. Those that are in Christ, which the System of Faith is all about and expressly for.

One could argue because God is Sovereign, that once the Father Chose and gave them to the Son - eternity past - the whole of their Salvation was a done deal. After all, who was going to prevent God's purpose. So being Born Anew, Regenerated, could certainly take place before they believed because their believing was guaranteed. However, if one believes that one of God's chosen could be lost, then this will throw a huge darkness over the truth of God's Salvation Plan.

By the way, the new birth, is the same as the circumcision of the heart. A change of nature, that keeps on growing throughout the Christians life. Better known as Conversion and Progressive Sanctification.

Sound like the same old "timing paradox" that nobody can possibly understand to me.
Something that I ignore altogether. Time is our problem, certainly nothing the Lord cannot deal with.

 

[cv5]

If you read my post again you'll maybe understand what I said.

Oh....I'm quite alright as regards understanding your post thank you.

 

[cv5]

Regardless of our inevitably prosaic view of things, God must inhabit the domain, the parameter space where He enjoys the MAXIMUM degrees of freedom, including the will. Which is why nothing is too hard for God.

Personally, I think that this perfect freedom BEGINS with perfect holiness and justice. Anything less makes then a person becomes a enslaved and prisoner. Sin/disobedience/rebellion brings about the removal of freedoms, rights, privileges. The more sin, the more degrees of freedom are lost, the darker the prison and worse the state of the prisoner.

Jhn 8:34
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

Psa 102:20
To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;

Isa 52:2
Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.

EDIT ^^
"Anything less than that and a person becomes an enslaved prisoner."

Zero carb dieting having its effect lol.

 

[oyster67]

If you are following along on this thread,

I am now.

the issue here is the word "free" in front of the word "will".

Man definitely has enough free will to call upon the name of the Lord and receive the salvation that Jesus made possible by His death on the cross. He did that for every man, women, and child ever born upon the face of the Earth. Believing and receiving is the privilege responsibility of all.

Additionally, mankind does not possess the ability, the power or authority, to have a free will.

Man has the free will to live a life of sin or come to the cross for redemption. That is the Gospel and the Bible says to let the man be accursed who teaches any other.

Acts 16
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Joshua 24:15
“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

 

[Nehemiah6]

There are many constraints upon man's will - to many to call it "free". After Adam's fall, man's will, according to Scripture, is governed by his enslavement and love of sin. Additionally, mankind does not possess the ability, the power or authority, to have a free will. Therefore, mankind's will reflects his nature.

Well then why does the Bible speak of FREE WILL OFFERINGS?

Furthermore we need to be careful to define what it means to be enslaved to sin, since Paul tells us that even the Gentiles -- who do not have the Law (the Torah) -- are governed by the Law which is within their conscience.

ROMANS 2: GENTILES ARE NEITHER TOTALLY DEPRAVED NOR LAWLESS
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without Law shall also perish without Law: and as many as have sinned in the Law shall be judged by the Law;
13 For not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the Law, do by nature the things contained in the Law, these, having not the Law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another:
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Unless people had free will, they could not be either governed by their conscience or disregard their conscience. And even those are not saved do have a conscience. That is what God tells us.

 

[awelight]

Sound like the same old "timing paradox" that nobody can possibly understand to me.
Something that I ignore altogether. Time is our problem, certainly nothing the Lord cannot deal with.

To try and fit all of the pieces mentioned in Salvation: Election, Predestination, Calling, New birth, Believing, Converting, Sanctification, Justification, Glorification... to mention some, is indeed a difficult puzzle to be worked out. But God gave them to us and therefore we should strive to get them right. Ones understanding is not necessary for ones Salvation - take the thief on the cross for instance - but how you understand these things, goes to the heart of who receives the Glory.

Some understand it, so that God gets all the Glory - while others, try to snatch away some of that glory.

 

[oyster67]

Some, for some reason, would like to relegate man to the level of insect.

 

[oyster67]

To try and fit all of the pieces mentioned in Salvation: Election, Predestination, Calling, New birth, Believing, Converting, Sanctification, Justification, Glorification... to mention some, is indeed a difficult puzzle to be worked out.

Not at all. It's drop-dead simple, my friend. Jesus gave His life to pay the price that no other man could pay. He paid the price for every man. Just believe and receive.

 

[awelight]

Well then why does the Bible speak of FREE WILL OFFERINGS?

Furthermore we need to be careful to define what it means to be enslaved to sin, since Paul tells us that even the Gentiles -- who do not have the Law (the Torah) -- are governed by the Law which is within their conscience.

ROMANS 2: GENTILES ARE NEITHER TOTALLY DEPRAVED NOR LAWLESS
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without Law shall also perish without Law: and as many as have sinned in the Law shall be judged by the Law;
13 For not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the Law, do by nature the things contained in the Law, these, having not the Law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another:
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Unless people had free will, they could not be either governed by their conscience or disregard their conscience. And even those are not saved do have a conscience. That is what God tells us.

The Bible speaks of a "freewill" offering, not about free will. The term free will, as it applies to this conversation, never appears in Scripture.

A freewill offering, simply meant: An offering that was given freely.

 

[cv5]

Salvation: Election, Predestination, Calling, New birth, Believing, Converting, Sanctification, Justification, Glorification...

Arguably ALL OF THIS could/did/must have occurred all at once instantaneously in eternity past given the term "predestinate". In the mind of God that is. In fact I think trying to put a "time stamp" on each individual item is part of our problem IMO.
But really, who can say for sure one way or another?

Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 4:17
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

 

[cv5]

Not at all. It's drop-dead simple, my friend. Jesus gave His life to pay the price that no other man could pay. He paid the price for every man. Just believe and receive.

Yep. From our limited domain and perspective that is all we need to know. And do if you have not already! With complete assurance of the efficacity of His prescription for the remedy of our woeful state.

 

[oyster67]

1 Peter 1:2
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

 

[awelight]

Not at all. It's drop-dead simple, my friend. Jesus gave His life to pay the price that no other man could pay. He paid the price for every man. Just believe and receive.

If you think all of the things I mentioned in my post were simple, I really don't know what to say.

You expressed Salvation from our experience but it does not touch the intricacies of God's Plan nor does it explain anything to one who might have a question about them.

If you have a question about one of my posts, then ask away - but if you have it all figured out, then why waste my time?

 

[awelight]

Arguably ALL OF THIS could/did/must have occurred all at once instantaneously in eternity past given the term "predestinate". In the mind of God that is. In fact I think trying to put a "time stamp" on each individual item is part of our problem IMO.
But really, who can say for sure one way or another?

Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 4:17
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

If you are satisfied with your knowledge on these subjects, then good for you. I am happy for you.

However, as for myself, I will continue to endeavor to understand everything that God has revealed for us as believers to know. Over my thirty plus years of study, with the Holy Spirit's assistance, I have been able to separate out those things that are eternal, with those things that are temporal. I love this study!!! Along with those of Theology, Christology, Eschatology... etc.

 

[oyster67]

If you have a question about one of my posts, then ask away

My only interest in your posts is to clear up the confusion you are spreading all over the field.

then why waste my time?

Perhaps you might consider that you may be wasting our time?

 

[awelight]

My only interest in your posts is to clear up the confusion you are spreading all over the field.

Perhaps you might consider that you may be wasting our time?

Okay, that response was both superficial and shallow.

If you think I am wasting peoples time by spreading "confusion", then bring it. Question my posts point by point and will let the truth speak for itself.

 

[oyster67]

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

That's not complicated.